Hi Everyone,
I'm new here. Been into Shadowrun for years and just recently picked up the 20th anniversary book and several of the supplementals. I'm planning on running a game soon that will involve at least one technomancer player and villain.
My question is this: From the core book, it doesn't seem that threading is an action. Therefore whats is the impetus to sustain threaded forms? Wouldn't it be better to build a character with a high fade resistance pool and just thread the form you are using every action and drop it right after making the action? I don't see anything to prevent a player from using this to make himself able to use any complex forms at high ratings all the time without any real penalty (Unless he manages to glitch a fade resistance roll with 12 or more dice.) How do other people handle this?
Full Version: Threading
You probably can't have a fade resistance pool high enough.
Can you drop the form in the same turn you thread it? Or do you have to sustain it until the next round at least? Looking at it a dwarf could start with a resonance of 6 and a Willpower of 7, giving him 13 dice to resist fading. Because of the rule of 6 you have a little better than 1/3 chance of rolling a success on each die, so he can assume an average of 4-5 successes. Playing conservatively, there is no reason not to buy a bunch of complex forms at 2 or 3, and bump them up to 5 or 6 every turn, suffering only a fade DV of 3, easily resisted by such a large pool.
You could try it. Starting with those stats is very expensive, and you're at the very edge of 'expected results' being 4 hits. It seems very likely that probability or BP sacrifice will catch up with you, or both. 
You don't even get Rule of Six unless you're spending Edge.
I did misunderstand you, though. Threading to only 5 or 6 is playing *very* conservatively indeed.
You don't even get Rule of Six unless you're spending Edge.I did misunderstand you, though. Threading to only 5 or 6 is playing *very* conservatively indeed.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 8 2010, 05:16 PM) 
You could try it. Starting with those stats is very expensive, and you're at the very edge of 'expected results' being 4 hits. It seems very likely that probability or BP sacrifice will catch up with you, or both. You don't even get Rule of Six unless you're spending Edge.
I did misunderstand you, though. Threading to only 5 or 6 is playing *very* conservatively indeed.
You don't even get Rule of Six unless you're spending Edge.I did misunderstand you, though. Threading to only 5 or 6 is playing *very* conservatively indeed.
Not everyone likes (or is capable) of threading to 12 though...
As an aside to the question of sustaining threaded forms: Threading is treated as a non-action, mechanically. Threading the form takes place in the same action that uses said form, and can be dropped just as easily. Note that this does not (or should not) allow a techno to insta-thread an armor or shield form (or allow them to beef an already existing form) as a reaction to an attack.
It's important to me to note that not only should a player put significant focus into their technomancer PC's ability to resist fade, but a GM should also become familiar with all the circumstances in which fading occurs and always remember to get that fade resistance check in. I've seen too many games where fading was barely acknowledged (some where drain was also ignored and some where it wasn't) and it only encourages exploitative play.
It's important to me to note that not only should a player put significant focus into their technomancer PC's ability to resist fade, but a GM should also become familiar with all the circumstances in which fading occurs and always remember to get that fade resistance check in. I've seen too many games where fading was barely acknowledged (some where drain was also ignored and some where it wasn't) and it only encourages exploitative play.
the threading exploit bypasses the fading. you just decide that you want to use zero successes, which causes double that in fading. double zero is still zero, so you resist zero fading, requiring zero hits, which even the most pathetic technomancer can reliably achieve 
But it remains an obvious exploit that the GM can address in a number of ways. That's literally why there are GMs.
QUOTE (Valashar @ Dec 24 2010, 09:16 AM)
As an aside to the question of sustaining threaded forms: Threading is treated as a non-action, mechanically. Threading the form takes place in the same action that uses said form, and can be dropped just as easily. Note that this does not (or should not) allow a techno to insta-thread an armor or shield form (or allow them to beef an already existing form) as a reaction to an attack.
Actually I'm pretty sure it does.
I can't find any rules on it, but I'm pretty sure I've seen something around somewhere that allowed a techno to Thread Exploit to Hack on the Fly, then in response to the analyze the system gets, drop it and Thread stealth, then swap back again.
Yes, lots of threading like this is going to cause a lot of Fading, but that's the price you pay.
That's just another argument for it to be a Free action, not a non-action. There really shouldn't be non-actions in a game like SR, for this reason. Then, you could even allow the player to 'abort to Threading' and borrow an action from their next turn.
If threading were a free action instead of the non-action it is, it could then be opened up to be used as an interrupt against an attack to allow Armor and/or Shielding to be threaded as soon as a TM is attacked. Taking up the character's next IP's free action (or even standard action, if necessary) to do so like how Dodge takes up a future action.
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Dec 24 2010, 05:59 PM)
If threading were a free action instead of the non-action it is, it could then be opened up to be used as an interrupt against an attack to allow Armor and/or Shielding to be threaded as soon as a TM is attacked. Taking up the character's next IP's free action (or even standard action, if necessary) to do so like how Dodge takes up a future action.
As a non-action they can already do that (and have their attack CF threaded too!)
Yes, SpellBinder. That's my point. Although, the only thing that I'm aware of that's explicitly allowed to 'interrupt' is physical combat defense; you'd have to specifically *allow* a Technomancer to use Threading as a defensive interrupt. Personally, I think that's probably a *good* thing to allow, though.
Although, the only thing that I'm aware of that's explicitly allowed to 'interrupt' is physical combat defense; you'd have to specifically *allow* a Technomancer to use Threading as a defensive interrupt. Personally, I think that's probably a *good* thing to allow, though.
I would too, especially from skimming through this thread it was sounding like the only way a TM could thread his armor and/or shielding form up was to do so before going into combat and not as a response of "i got hit!" (something that never has come up in my game sessions).
To help mitigate Fading, have a high loyalty mage friend cast Increase Attribute spells. Or heck, have them cast those for all your mental stats anyways, since there's no Increase Resonance spell. This one's more for your BBEG, to make him scary-er.
I personally do not like the idea of repeat threading to get whatever value CF you feel like, all in the span of no time at all.
So I apply the "Trying Again" rule to Threading, as they failed to achieve the result they wanted. A character is free to try as many times as they like (until they run out of dice) but they will have a lower chance each try unless they take a break from it (or edge it or something). And this in no way frees them from the Fading they would receive.
So I apply the "Trying Again" rule to Threading, as they failed to achieve the result they wanted. A character is free to try as many times as they like (until they run out of dice) but they will have a lower chance each try unless they take a break from it (or edge it or something). And this in no way frees them from the Fading they would receive.
Threading is one of the major flaws in the TM rules design. That they have Matrix Netherwalking is one of the others. Machine Sprites are yet another. More than enough reason to ban or severely houserule them.
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 26 2010, 11:14 AM)
Threading is one of the major flaws in the TM rules design. That they have Matrix Netherwalking is one of the others. Machine Sprites are yet another. More than enough reason to ban or severely houserule them.
Interesting... I disagree, but it is Interesting...
I thought the BBEG ran on GM fiat.
Why not just decide a DP that seems dangerous enough and throw down?
Psychotropic Black-hammer attacks sounds about right.
Why not just decide a DP that seems dangerous enough and throw down?
Psychotropic Black-hammer attacks sounds about right.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 26 2010, 10:24 PM)
Interesting... I disagree, but it is Interesting...
A more substantial asnwer would have been cool.
QUOTE (Grinder @ Dec 28 2010, 10:50 AM)
A more substantial asnwer would have been cool.
Sorry about that, just trying to avoid open warfare with Hermit is all...
I do not see any of the problems that Hermit is complaining about, but as Yerameyahu keeeps reminding me, my Table is obviously Atypical...
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 26 2010, 01:14 PM)
Threading is one of the major flaws in the TM rules design. That they have Matrix Netherwalking is one of the others. Machine Sprites are yet another. More than enough reason to ban or severely houserule them.
color me crazy, but netherwalking is where you actually physically enter the astral plane, no?
technomancers don't get matrix netherwalking. their physical body is always on the physical plane (barring the use of an astral gateway or some such, which would force them into the astral i suppose).
or am i remembering netherwalking wrong, and it's something else?
Astral Gateway does not in fact force your body into the astral plane. It simply causes the person to (be able to?) astrally project.
QUOTE
color me crazy, but netherwalking is where you actually physically enter the astral plane, no?
Netherwalking is 'teleporting', using a metaplane like the Room Of White With A Shitload Of Doors from Matrix to get from A to B (like a spirit can), bypassing ANY kind of worldly or even astral security. It's a 9th circle Nethermancer skill in Earthdawn, IIRC. Technomancers can hack ANY system via Resonance Space. ANY. Even a system that is totally isolated from everything. That's matrix netherwalking - using the matrix metaplanes to get from A to B.
well, no, not really. they can't actually get into the system for one thing. they can find data that is located on the system, yes (or data that *was* on the system). but they can't get on the system. they couldn't subvert a security node and take over the physical security of a building that is isolated from the matrix without getting a signal into it. they couldn't do a random search for stuff that interests them from that facility. and they likely won't even be able to get realtime information from the system.
Here's how Netherwalk works in the current edition of Earthdawn:
QUOTE
The adept sends his spirit forth to walk through astral space. This
talent is used infrequently, as its use poses grave danger to the
adept. The adept’s spirit can move about in astral form for Netherwalk
Test minutes, but must return to his body before the talent ends, or it
becomes separated. Should this happen, the adept dies and his spirit
is doomed to wander astral space. The adept may end his Netherwalk
at any time once his spirit has re-entered his body. While in astral
space, the adept can pass through many barriers that exist only in
the physical world. Any attempts to pass through objects with a
True Pattern require the adept to make a Netherwalk Test against
the object’s Spell Defense. If successful, he can continue on past the
obstacle. When traveling in astral space, the adept can move no faster
than his Movement Rate. During the time he spends Netherwalking,
the adept exposes himself to the dangers of astral space. Each
minute of travel, the adept suffers damage dependent on the level of
astral corruption in the region, as determined by the gamemaster.
The adept’s natural Mystic Armor protects against this damage. The
Netherwalk Damage Table shows the damage that an adept takes
during each minute of travel, based on the astral region’s classification.
This talent also allows the adept to use the astral pollution to
his advantage, obscuring
him from the view
of any astral denizens
or characters viewing
astral space. This
obscuring effect is also
dependent on the type
of astral region through
which the adept is traveling.
The pollution adds a bonus to the adept’s Spell Defense, as
shown in the Netherwalk Table, based on the region’s classification.
talent is used infrequently, as its use poses grave danger to the
adept. The adept’s spirit can move about in astral form for Netherwalk
Test minutes, but must return to his body before the talent ends, or it
becomes separated. Should this happen, the adept dies and his spirit
is doomed to wander astral space. The adept may end his Netherwalk
at any time once his spirit has re-entered his body. While in astral
space, the adept can pass through many barriers that exist only in
the physical world. Any attempts to pass through objects with a
True Pattern require the adept to make a Netherwalk Test against
the object’s Spell Defense. If successful, he can continue on past the
obstacle. When traveling in astral space, the adept can move no faster
than his Movement Rate. During the time he spends Netherwalking,
the adept exposes himself to the dangers of astral space. Each
minute of travel, the adept suffers damage dependent on the level of
astral corruption in the region, as determined by the gamemaster.
The adept’s natural Mystic Armor protects against this damage. The
Netherwalk Damage Table shows the damage that an adept takes
during each minute of travel, based on the astral region’s classification.
This talent also allows the adept to use the astral pollution to
his advantage, obscuring
him from the view
of any astral denizens
or characters viewing
astral space. This
obscuring effect is also
dependent on the type
of astral region through
which the adept is traveling.
The pollution adds a bonus to the adept’s Spell Defense, as
shown in the Netherwalk Table, based on the region’s classification.
EDIT: Never Mind... Beat to the Punch apparently...
And here I sat thinking that we were on a Shadowrun forum...
QUOTE (Neraph @ Dec 29 2010, 11:15 PM)
And here I sat thinking that we were on a Shadowrun forum...
Indeed we are Neraph, Indeed we are...
So Netherwalk is a special adept power to do what every Shadowrun Mage can do with a 1 magic skill?
It used to be more. Boy have they nerfed ED magics.
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 30 2010, 02:29 PM)
It used to be more. Boy have they nerfed ED magics.
Maybe because Shadowrun is not Earthdawn...
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 30 2010, 10:29 PM)
It used to be more. Boy have they nerfed ED magics.
What? It didn't change much from EDC to ED 3rd edition.
Uhm, okay. Maybe I mixed up terms. This "teleport through astral travel, taking your body ontot the planes" power, what was it'S name again?
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 30 2010, 05:00 PM)
Uhm, okay. Maybe I mixed up terms. This "teleport through astral travel, taking your body ontot the planes" power, what was it'S name again?
Astral Gateway perhaps? A Power that only Certain Spirits possess by the way...
QUOTE (tagz @ Dec 26 2010, 12:05 PM)
I personally do not like the idea of repeat threading to get whatever value CF you feel like, all in the span of no time at all.
If you've got a player thinking they can use this for the easy 12, let them. And while they're doing it, total up all of their hits on the bypassed rolls and then add that total to the hits they use on the last one for a Scanners-esque hit of fading. And if they try the previously mentioned declaring the use of zero hits on the bypassed rolls, don't let them. It's a non-action taking the amount of time a thought needs to cross a few neurons. They don't get the luxury of micromanaging.
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 29 2010, 12:09 PM)
Netherwalking is 'teleporting', using a metaplane like the Room Of White With A Shitload Of Doors from Matrix to get from A to B (like a spirit can), bypassing ANY kind of worldly or even astral security. It's a 9th circle Nethermancer skill in Earthdawn, IIRC. Technomancers can hack ANY system via Resonance Space. ANY. Even a system that is totally isolated from everything. That's matrix netherwalking - using the matrix metaplanes to get from A to B.
Technmancers cannot use their own skills, or even echos to use the realms to access any system anywhere. Doing so requires them to undergo a resonance quest to locate the specific realm that contains those connections and another effort to locate the one, single connection out of the many billions that would lead them to their target. All of which is full of the kinds of unique mental and personal peril that only an astral/resonance quest can contain.
QUOTE (Valashar @ Dec 31 2010, 04:47 PM)
If you've got a player thinking they can use this for the easy 12, let them. And while they're doing it, total up all of their hits on the bypassed rolls and then add that total to the hits they use on the last one for a Scanners-esque hit of fading. And if they try the previously mentioned declaring the use of zero hits on the bypassed rolls, don't let them. It's a non-action taking the amount of time a thought needs to cross a few neurons. They don't get the luxury of micromanaging.
Except that Threading specifically allows the Technomancer to discard hits they do not wish to use, and the Fading specifically states that it is based on the hits USED for Threading, not scored. Its specifically the player's decision not the GM's. That's the RAW.
So what you suggest, while a great way to punish a problem player, breaks from RAW (couple ways, actually with reusing hits from a previous test). I'll stick with the RAW but thanks for the suggestion. I already have the never used threat of "Blue Lightning".
Blue Lightning
Fluff:
God is pissed. A bolt of blue colored lightning arcs out at the target from the nearest power source, or if outdoors from the sky (even on a clear day!) and strikes without fail.
Crunch:
GM gathers all the dice on the table. GM rolls all dice. Target in question takes that much damage.
Intended Use:
Threat only. Can be used in situations called for extreme humor.
I think every GM has one of these (orbital bovine bombardment I'm looking at you), though Shadowrun had the built in one of the Thor Shot... till they stated it.
QUOTE (tagz @ Dec 31 2010, 11:32 AM)
I think every GM has one of these (orbital bovine bombardment I'm looking at you), though Shadowrun had the built in one of the Thor Shot... till they stated it.
Why? Anything in the Target area is still incenerated with no ability to ammeliorate the damage; so, stats notwithstanding, it still works...
It's an RPG addadge. Once something has stats someone somewhere will find a build/trick/method to beat it, or so I've been told.
God's power is now quantifiable, I'm poking fun at that.
God's power is now quantifiable, I'm poking fun at that.
QUOTE (tagz @ Jan 2 2011, 12:46 AM)
It's an RPG addadge. Once something has stats someone somewhere will find a build/trick/method to beat it, or so I've been told.
Its true.
And while not entirely A caused B (and more B occurred in such a way as to do A), our GM* was running a "Cancer 3.5 Game" and the party ended up such that they could, in one round, get the jump on and kill a balor and its minions without expending consumable resources (spells, hit points, items).
Which caused the GM to cut-scene some 30 more of them and jump strait to the final boss.
*Slight clarification: I am my group's current GM, but I have no GMed in the past or plan to in the future, so I mean the other GM who runs most everything else.
QUOTE (tagz @ Jan 1 2011, 10:46 PM)
It's an RPG addadge. Once something has stats someone somewhere will find a build/trick/method to beat it, or so I've been told.
God's power is now quantifiable, I'm poking fun at that.
God's power is now quantifiable, I'm poking fun at that.
Maybe it is just me, But I do not see a Thor Shot as "God's Power" here. A Thor Shot has always been about Plot. Whether it has stats, or not, does not change that. There is a definable area of effect now, yes, but you will never be able to avoid that area if you are caught up in it. The Thor Shot is still just as much a Plot Device (or GM Hammer, if you will) as it always was. Mainly, if it is used against a player, that player is dead...
Anyways...
besides, Thor shots are what happens when some extremely powerful person/organisation gets mad at you. when the GM gets mad at you, it's orbital *bovine* bombardment, and there's no stats for bovine based orbital weapons yet 
anyways, hermit, there are a few powers that basically let you do it. there's a nethermancer power that lets you teleport to your specially prepared bone circle (or something like that). there's an illusion power that lets you make an illusion of a door that can take you to a different door someplace far away iirc too. there's a wizard one as well iirc... not quite sure i can recall how it works though. and i think there's another nethermancy one, but i can't be sure.
i really did think that netherwalking actually put your physical body into the astral though. weird.
anyways, hermit, there are a few powers that basically let you do it. there's a nethermancer power that lets you teleport to your specially prepared bone circle (or something like that). there's an illusion power that lets you make an illusion of a door that can take you to a different door someplace far away iirc too. there's a wizard one as well iirc... not quite sure i can recall how it works though. and i think there's another nethermancy one, but i can't be sure.
i really did think that netherwalking actually put your physical body into the astral though. weird.
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