QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 21 2010, 09:26 AM) 
Talented - Pick any skill. Character uses the rules for exploding sixes on any roll using that skill. May be taken multiple times, each time applying to a different skill.
slightly better than Aptitude
Full Version: Legendary Qualities
slightly better than Aptitude
QUOTE (Makki @ Dec 21 2010, 05:06 PM)
slightly better than Aptitude
yeah, yeah
Ok, how about for Talented, the previous suggestion about it applying to Skill Groups rather than individual Skills? Athletics, Conjuring, Pistols, etc.
OR...how about letting the dice explode on any hit (so 5 or 6) ?
I guess the main thrust of my original post in this thread was this: Shadowrun has mechanics which severely limit what a mere mortal can do. In order to be "legendary" you have to undergo a fundamental transformation. Whether thats becoming a cyberzombie or cyborg, a free spiirt, an AI, a Vampire, etc. You basically have to leave your meat behind, and possibly your soul.
That said, I do like some of the qualities that have been listed here. Devils Own Luck would certainly make you an action hero, who runs in front of lots of full-auto fire and never gets touched.
That said, I do like some of the qualities that have been listed here. Devils Own Luck would certainly make you an action hero, who runs in front of lots of full-auto fire and never gets touched.
I know some people do this already, but what about removing the skill caps? Or even increasing the Augmented max to x2 for 1 attribute per Legendary quality?
QUOTE (Jareth Valar @ Dec 22 2010, 03:01 AM)
I know some people do this already, but what about removing the skill caps? Or even increasing the Augmented max to x2 for 1 attribute per Legendary quality?
That would actually let some of the legendary NPCs actually be legendary. As it stands, Fastjack isn't all that compared to a starting hacker.
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 20 2010, 08:57 AM)
Just a few ideas off the top of my head for legendary qualities-
Double Focus - The character is able to focus on two things at once fully. The character can use their full DP when firing two weapons at the same time, as well as take advantage of laser sights or smartgun links.
Speed Demon - The character is fast. Really fast. Faster than that. While reaction and IP doesn't increase, the character is able to physically move faster, something normal reaction enhancers don't allow. The character may move their full movement in each IP, and also gains an extra standard action in each IP.
Made of Steel - While not actually made of steel, the character either naturally or through extensive training has made their body as hard or harder than metal. When soaking damage, the character doesn't roll body as part of the test, instead the damage of the attack is automatically reduced by the character's body.
The Truth of Magic - The character understands that magic is a force that is harnessed by one's will, and that tradition is simply a means to focus one's will. The character may summon all normal spirit types, and all spirits work for all spell categories for that character. This does not include insect spirits, blood spirits, shadow spirits, etc. Though if the character otherwise has access to those spirits she may still summon them.
Strength of Spirit - The character gains 1 essence. For mundanes this means more possibilities for ware, for awakened it also means that their natural maximum magic is increased by 1.
Devil's Own Luck - Whenever a character uses edge, the character is considered to have an edge of 15 for purposes of resolving that use. Note that this does not actually increase the character's edge, nor grant extra edge for the purposes of spending or burning. Devil's Own Luck also applies whenever edge is called for as part of a roll (such as dodging suppression fire).
Resonate - Technomancer increases their matrix attributes (signal, firewall, biofeedback filter, etc) by half their resonance.
One with the Code - The technomancer has achieved a new level of connection with the code of the matrix. They gain an extra IP (allowing them to achieve 6 total IPs on the matrix) and all of their complex forms are treated as being 2 higher than they actually are. Note that this does not increase the cost of improving the complex forms, and that it also applies after threading, so the TM does not suffer physical fading sooner than they would without this quality.
Strength of Mind - For awakened, this quality allows the character to add their tradition based drain stat (intuition, logic, or charisma) a second time to their drain pool, effectively doubling the contribution from that stat. For technomancers this quality allows the character to add their stream's drain stat (intuition, logic, charisma, or willpower) a second time to their fading pool, effectively doubling the contribution from that stat.
So, just some quick ideas I threw together. Not sure if they are 'epic' enough or too epic or what.
Double Focus - The character is able to focus on two things at once fully. The character can use their full DP when firing two weapons at the same time, as well as take advantage of laser sights or smartgun links.
Speed Demon - The character is fast. Really fast. Faster than that. While reaction and IP doesn't increase, the character is able to physically move faster, something normal reaction enhancers don't allow. The character may move their full movement in each IP, and also gains an extra standard action in each IP.
Made of Steel - While not actually made of steel, the character either naturally or through extensive training has made their body as hard or harder than metal. When soaking damage, the character doesn't roll body as part of the test, instead the damage of the attack is automatically reduced by the character's body.
The Truth of Magic - The character understands that magic is a force that is harnessed by one's will, and that tradition is simply a means to focus one's will. The character may summon all normal spirit types, and all spirits work for all spell categories for that character. This does not include insect spirits, blood spirits, shadow spirits, etc. Though if the character otherwise has access to those spirits she may still summon them.
Strength of Spirit - The character gains 1 essence. For mundanes this means more possibilities for ware, for awakened it also means that their natural maximum magic is increased by 1.
Devil's Own Luck - Whenever a character uses edge, the character is considered to have an edge of 15 for purposes of resolving that use. Note that this does not actually increase the character's edge, nor grant extra edge for the purposes of spending or burning. Devil's Own Luck also applies whenever edge is called for as part of a roll (such as dodging suppression fire).
Resonate - Technomancer increases their matrix attributes (signal, firewall, biofeedback filter, etc) by half their resonance.
One with the Code - The technomancer has achieved a new level of connection with the code of the matrix. They gain an extra IP (allowing them to achieve 6 total IPs on the matrix) and all of their complex forms are treated as being 2 higher than they actually are. Note that this does not increase the cost of improving the complex forms, and that it also applies after threading, so the TM does not suffer physical fading sooner than they would without this quality.
Strength of Mind - For awakened, this quality allows the character to add their tradition based drain stat (intuition, logic, or charisma) a second time to their drain pool, effectively doubling the contribution from that stat. For technomancers this quality allows the character to add their stream's drain stat (intuition, logic, charisma, or willpower) a second time to their fading pool, effectively doubling the contribution from that stat.
So, just some quick ideas I threw together. Not sure if they are 'epic' enough or too epic or what.
these...are...awesome!
QUOTE (darthmord @ Dec 22 2010, 07:27 AM)
That would actually let some of the legendary NPCs actually be legendary. As it stands, Fastjack isn't all that compared to a starting hacker.
I would disagree with you about Fastjack... who likely has a Logic of 10+, Skill of 7 and Programs of 10+, not counting any other bonuses and perks that he may have, like many, many, many group contacts at Loyalty 6, and large amounts of Qualities/Equipment which boost his hacking abilities....
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 26 2010, 10:33 AM)
I would disagree with you about Fastjack... who likely has a Logic of 10+, Skill of 7 and Programs of 10+, not counting any other bonuses and perks that he may have, like many, many, many group contacts at Loyalty 6, and large amounts of Qualities/Equipment which boost his hacking abilities....
Be that as it may, it was easily possible to make a superior NPC in older editions. Under SR4/SR4a RAW, not so much. The top end cap was lowered in such a way as to make it not hard to reach from a starting PC. Thus the difference between a powerful NPC and a starting PC is significantly lessened.
Sure you can give him such things as you mentioned but some of the will simply have to be handwavium as there isn't that much stuff (perks, 'ware, etc) to boost hacking abilities.
IOW, the advancement track between beginner & best in the world was significantly shortened. Older editions didn't have this problem as they had a much higher 'cap'.
QUOTE (darthmord @ Dec 28 2010, 11:42 AM)
Be that as it may, it was easily possible to make a superior NPC in older editions. Under SR4/SR4a RAW, not so much. The top end cap was lowered in such a way as to make it not hard to reach from a starting PC. Thus the difference between a powerful NPC and a starting PC is significantly lessened.
Sure you can give him such things as you mentioned but some of the will simply have to be handwavium as there isn't that much stuff (perks, 'ware, etc) to boost hacking abilities.
IOW, the advancement track between beginner & best in the world was significantly shortened. Older editions didn't have this problem as they had a much higher 'cap'.
Sure you can give him such things as you mentioned but some of the will simply have to be handwavium as there isn't that much stuff (perks, 'ware, etc) to boost hacking abilities.
IOW, the advancement track between beginner & best in the world was significantly shortened. Older editions didn't have this problem as they had a much higher 'cap'.
I have to agree with you here. The main thing that would separate Fastjack from any normal hacker would be high end programs which might give him a couple extra dice, and having a larger range of skills at 6. I mean, there isn't any hacking ware that you can't get from the start, and you can even get a 7 skill from the start. You can also manage all your programs at 6, and logic doesn't actually factor into hacking at all. So, the big difference is whatever arbitrary program rating you want to give him, and that number -6 is going to be the DP advantage that Fastjack will have over a starting hacker. Maybe up to 2 more dice than that in areas that the starting hacker has to leave their skills at 4 for now. The point here is that for all of Fastjack's amazing skill, he is still only marginally better than a starting hacker.
Same can be easily said for street sams for the most part. Sure, the super experienced one might have a couple extra cool little ware tricks and some better auxiliary skills, but they're both going to have virtually identical attack and defense pools. The area where you'll have the largest difference between a starting character and an experienced one is going to be Awakened and Resonant characters. TMs in particular show serious improvements with time as they gain access to more (And much higher rating) Complex Forms, and improved resonance increases their fading pool, letting them thread more easily, and they can perhaps afford to sacrifice some resonance to gain some ware at that point, which could increase their fading resistance even more. Mages are similar, but perhaps a bit less effected by access to a wider range of spells. Metamagics however can make an impressive difference, especially things like the counterspelling one at higher initiation levels.
Adepts run into a similar problem as sammies, though not quite as badly. They can after all continue to increase combat sense and/or armor indefinitely until they're impossible to harm, and increase critical strike until they can destroy tanks with a single blow, but beyond that they tend to see similar attack pools as each other, and improvement means more branching out than improvement in the specialization.
I don't know, perhaps this is more of a problem with how we look at starting characters than anything else. Perhaps starting characters should be thought of those who have risen to the top in their chosen field (Hacking, combat, etc) but haven't yet been able to branch out. Perhaps your average 400 BP character is supposed to be nipping at the heels of Fastjack in the realm of hacking, because a 400 BP hacker represents a hacker that is at the top of the game, but a 400 BP hacker also represents a hacker that is still fairly lacking in the physical realm.
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 28 2010, 07:49 PM)
I have to agree with you here. The main thing that would separate Fastjack from any normal hacker would be high end programs which might give him a couple extra dice, and having a larger range of skills at 6. I mean, there isn't any hacking ware that you can't get from the start, and you can even get a 7 skill from the start. You can also manage all your programs at 6, and logic doesn't actually factor into hacking at all. So, the big difference is whatever arbitrary program rating you want to give him, and that number -6 is going to be the DP advantage that Fastjack will have over a starting hacker. Maybe up to 2 more dice than that in areas that the starting hacker has to leave their skills at 4 for now. The point here is that for all of Fastjack's amazing skill, he is still only marginally better than a starting hacker.
I don't know, perhaps this is more of a problem with how we look at starting characters than anything else. Perhaps starting characters should be thought of those who have risen to the top in their chosen field (Hacking, combat, etc) but haven't yet been able to branch out. Perhaps your average 400 BP character is supposed to be nipping at the heels of Fastjack in the realm of hacking, because a 400 BP hacker represents a hacker that is at the top of the game, but a 400 BP hacker also represents a hacker that is still fairly lacking in the physical realm.
I don't know, perhaps this is more of a problem with how we look at starting characters than anything else. Perhaps starting characters should be thought of those who have risen to the top in their chosen field (Hacking, combat, etc) but haven't yet been able to branch out. Perhaps your average 400 BP character is supposed to be nipping at the heels of Fastjack in the realm of hacking, because a 400 BP hacker represents a hacker that is at the top of the game, but a 400 BP hacker also represents a hacker that is still fairly lacking in the physical realm.
But really, Best of the Best is still Best of the Best... How much separation do you really need? That Skill rating Difference (Assuming Fastjack has a 7 in his Primary Hacking Skill, and 6's in others) generates a significant Dice Pool benefit when undergoing Extended Rolls. And honestly, Unlimited progression in previous editions was ludicrous.
Besides, I would enforce the use of Logic as the basis for your DP in SR4/4A for Hacking Rolls. It is a good Optional Rule, which goes a long way to fixing what a lot of poople see as a deficiency in the Matrix Rules. Even if Yerameyahu and I still disagree about that...
And in answer to your last Paragraph, I DO think there is a disconnect on how Starting Characters are viewed. You can be VERY skilled in a very narrow specialization (and still not approach the effectiveness of Fastjack) with a Skill of 6 and a handful of 4's to go around, and STILL be a LONG ways from ever equaling a Legendary Character such as Fastjack (or actually filling your Background as a fully realized character). Or you could start as a New Shadowrunner, with a lot of skills approaching the "Professional" Level and be a truly new Shadowrunner. Dice Pools from 8-12 and a fair amount of skills. It is the Latter that I tend to view as Starting Shadowrunners. The Former are usually not capable of fulfilling their Backstory in any meaningful way, as there are usually very large, gaping, holes in skill sets that they should actually have for the concept, but are not actually taken because of a lack of Resources (BP's or Karma)...
The biggest disconnect, that I can see, is that the consensus seems to be that obtaining the highest Dice Pool possible is the only way to go, and that any other way is just gimping the character. I call BS on that assertion.
Anyways, my 2
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