If that's what 'used' in 'defense' means. Sounds like a very subjective call to say that something artificially defending against the virus isn't a defense.

The need to balance is inherent when you're arguing that a defense is immune to the existing anti-defense mechanic, of a disease that's intended to be all-but-unstoppable.

O-Cells are essentially immune system cells – so Penetration reduces Body dice as well?

On the contrary, there is absolutely no need to balance counters against diseases other than money. The game aspect is pretty much irrelevant, as they act way to slow to matter in combat.
Just for reference – Shadowrun is a world where you can reconstruct people that suffered lethal radiation burns.

Clearly the disease was not inteded to be "all-but-unstoppable" – all supplements still describe normal human settlements instead of 28 days later.

What they essentially are is an artificial anti-disease system, something used to defend, if you will.

We're talking about HMHVV III, not O-Cells in general.

And the fact that nothing *but* O-Cells can stop it means that it *is* all-but-unstoppable. That's not the same as 'spread everywhere'.

Actually, we are talking about general disease resistance now.

Sadly, it means exactly that – zombies on bite. And we aren't even talking Strain 2, yet.

Right: the bite is irresistible. But that doesn't mean everyone gets bitten. Anyway, the fluff *does* describe it that way, and the mechanics (as above) fully support it… unless O-Cells get a free pass despite obviously being 'anything used to defend'.

Retcon FTW.

Huh? AIDS, Ebola, etc. are very hard to resist after you get it, but that doesn't mean everyone is exposed. They're totally separate issues. I'm not saying a zombie apocalypse is theoretically impossible, but they're separate questions. You could have a zombie apocalypse even if HMHVV III only affected 10% of victims, instead of 99.99%. Separate.

The analogy would be rabies, without vaccine and without fatality to stop the spread. Ebola is very fatal as well and still spreads like wildfire.

Strain 2 and 3 don' kill the carrier. That means the spread is much worse than ebola or even aids, like, say africa.

*An* analogy. Another would be the Tazmanian Devil face-cancer, because it actually makes them more violent. The point is, it's not everywhere (though it could be), and individual infection is nearly certain (and intended, described, and statted accordingly). Why would the book say nothing can stop it if O-Cells can trivially stop it?

The point is, with those stats, it should be everywhere, since it is way worse than VITAS and that happend to the Sixth world.

Why does the book says it spreads by Touch if it's not supposed to? Why does the book say nothing can stop it and it runs ten days, when books before said it runs three months and can be stopped in the first?

Sooo… you're saying that it runs three months?

And book also says that Penetration affects O-Cells, in that they are 'any defense'.

The crash did it.

Nope, it says neither of those things.

It does. Obviously.

I can invent ridiculous arguments, too. Let's say that O-Cells don't include HMHVV III in their antiviral library… now they have no effect. The book doesn't say they do, after all.

The only thing that is obvious here is that we disagree on what is obvious.

Actually, it does not postulate the requirement for the disease to be in the library, or any restriction in fact – again, that's just Nantidote.

No, it's right there in their description: they work because they "come equipped with broad-spectrum pharmacological microdoses and an inbuilt “library” of responses to a wide array of common pathogens." Now, that's a deliberately stupid and baseless argument, which was my stated point.

Incidentally, "broad-spectrum pharmacological microdoses" is pharmaceuticals, which Penetration explicitly works against. DOUBLEWINK

… as if "Penetration rating affects the rating of any protective system used to defend against it" weren't clear enough already.

Ancient History already apologized for the HMHVV-III. It was a mistake on his part, and he's very sorry.
You guys are arguing over what the definition of the word is, is.

Penetration is clearly supposed to effect the rating of O-Cells as well as everything else.
O-Cells are basically genetically coded self-mutating White Blood cells with a computer and a library of responses.

They're not some magical shield against magical diseases.

That being said Shadowrun would be a much better game, if we all pretended HMHVV never existed.
If you want Banshees and Vampires in your game, you don't need some stupid awakened Virus to do it.

He should be very sorry.

Just there is no requirement by the actual rules like for Nantidote.

You missed your point, then…

So O-Cells are pharmaceuticals, too? That's cool, because then, they additionally provide dice to the actual disease resistance test

Similar to armor penetration, which only affects armor, that is "used to defend against" weapons. Which, by the rules, are dice used in the damage resistance test

Honestly, it sucks much more that implants that cost Essence make no difference at all.

He should be more sorry – he wrote the reference of canon prior to the retcon.

Nah, it's about "used to defend". Turning the rules against themselves for the greater good, you know?

Did he felt sorry enough to suggest an ERRATA about it here? I couldn't find it with my faulty search fu.

How did I miss my point? Are you saying that argument against O-Cells doing anything wasn't baseless and stupid? ;D

Of course O-Cells are pharmaceuticals.

Similar, not 'same'. There's no reason to intentionally misread Penetration into doing literally nothing, because there's not 'bio-armor' in the game.

What implants?

Ok, new house rule: There is no such thing as HMHVV!

Products of type I and Ia are still made the same as currently, products of type II and type III only come about from breeding.

The world now makes a whole lot more sense and players everywhere rejoice.

As an aside, I tell players who want to play flesh eating zombies (aka Ghouls) to join my All Flesh game. I tell those who want to play blood sucking fiends of the night to join my Vampire game (V:tM, not the suck that is V:tR). If you want to play a fur bag, well, tough.

Well, it is counterintuitive that Nantidote and O-Cells work slightly different andthus, are often confused.

No, the are not – they are nanites. In this case, genemodified cyber-ninja immune system cells with knowsoft and poison.

Oh, the horrible mess that are disease rule in general is enough of a reason, and HMHVV especially.

The ones that should actually help against diseases, or toxins.

No dominated pet weredogs for your bloodsuckers?

At times I'm actually surprised that WW managed to sell any copies of the Werewolf games. I've only seen the books player usable in one game and that was a mixed group of all the different game types. Of course, I was the lone were and really munched him out.

I am rejoicing...when do we make it official?

On a side note can we take away the essence drain?...it makes otherwise interesting options unplayable unless you want to play a psychopath.

I have just finished a four year game (meeting once a week every week) game which was mixed mage / werewolf / vampire. The whitewolf die system sucks beyond all suckiness even though it superficially resembles shadowrun (please don't sue me for libel...). However the world is excellent, the werewolf characters loads of fun, the vampires full of "oh my lost humanity", and the mages kick serious butt. All the players pretty much bought most of the books (the GM has every book whitewolf has ever produced I think, while the rest of us have about 10).

Like shadowrun the "saving throws" are too hard. (i.e. Magic + spellcasting + specialisation + patron + foci + supporting spirit die vs willpower...who is going to win?) However a good GM can ignore that kind of rubbish and make the stories good.

You mean someone who lives by the misery of others? That's just normal behavior in Shadowrun.

No can do on removing the essence drain. Vampires suck out the life form of their victoms in all the myths, which is represented by essence in SR. Sorry.

Ask and you shall receive, here (post #16, more specifically).

Weird, post #16 for me is
but I also have a post #-74 so.....

Post 16 isn't even on that link (it links to page 2, starting at #26). #16 is by AH, but doesn't seem to be errata.

A rules discussion on how Penetration should be applied.

That thread actually has some good points on why RAW is just plan stupid.

toturi, that's an interpretation, yes, but it specifically contradicts the RAW, which reduces *rating*, not dice. It also contradicts the point of Penetration, which is to counteract any defenses.

Really weird, post 16 to me is:

How does it specifically contradict the RAW?

What then is the specific wording of Penetration, in particularly its game mechanics?

I refuse to post it a 3rd (4th?) time in this thread. It says *rating* and *any defense*.

You have posted exerpts that seem to suggest your interpretation. But what are the specifics that you did not?

That's false. The only thing I left off, for brevity, and not every time, is the extra "including pharmaceuticals", which I mentioned above. The sentence was also quoted by others; look it up here or in the book for yourself.

You have deliberately ignored the line (though you did post initially) "similar to Armor Penetration". Thus how does Armor Penetration function and what does Armor Penetration affect?

In such a similar way, does Armor Penetration affect such "defenses" that reduce the weapon's power? If it does, then in similar fashion, Penetration will affect O-cells.

Right: I posted it, fully. I should get all dramatic and act wounded that you accused me of trickery.

There are a couple ways to interpret that 'similar to…' bit. You can read that it means 'counteracts defenses', which is logical and in keeping with the rest of the sentence. You can also read it to mean that it only works against armor, which contradicts the 'any defense' later in the sentence for no reason.

There are no effects that reduce weapon power; presumably, AP would affect them if they did exist. Armor Penetration also doesn't say, as Disease Penetration does, that it works against 'any defense'.

--
I mean, you have two options: O-Cells are incredibly powerful *and* immune to Penetration, a core disease mechanic, and contradict the clear 'reduce rating of any defense' wording, *and* reduce a disease that nothing else can even touch to a trivial auto-win,

… or they're merely incredibly powerful, but make sense with the rest of the rules. *shrug*

The problem is that there would be no definition of what "any defense" actually means or how it would work, if we were to interpret it in your manner.

You can read it as counteracting any and everything that prevents the disease which makes "any defense" redundant if so. You could read it to mean that it works only against dice adders, which thus clarifies what are the "defenses" being refered to in "any defense".

Yes, but 'only dice adders' isn't 'any'. By definition, it's not 'any'. There's no fatal redundancy there at all; that's how language works. It would be weird if it didn't say that.

Armor Penetration specifies that it functions against Armor. (Pathogen/Toxin defense) Penetration goes out of its way to say 'any protective measures defending against the pathogen/toxin'. It's not like they couldn't have said it other ways to leave out O-Cells, or, in the O-Cell description, mentioned that Penetration doesn't affect it.

It's not that I don't see your argument. You're saying there are things that help the Disease Resistance test (Body + defenses) where hits reduce the Power, and those things are in one category, with O-Cells in another. However, what is O-Cells but automatic successes on that test, reducing the Power?

--
An argument that came up earlier bears addressing, too: the idea that 'O-Cells are basically your immune system, so they shouldn't be affected by Penetration'. This can't be right. The bioware Pathogenic Defense specifically "spearheads the production of more effective and aggressive leukocytes (white blood cells)", so if anything, it's even more 'natural'. We'd have to let that ignore Penetration as well, even though it's the clearest kind of 'dice adder' pathogen defense.

No. It works against "any" dice adders. By definition it is "any". There is a redundacy there.

I mean, you have two options: O-Cells are incredibly powerful *and* not immune to Penetration, a core disease mechanic, and not contradict the clear 'similar to Armor Penetration' wording, *and* reduce a disease that nothing else can even touch to a trivial auto-win but make sense with the rest of the rules,

… or O-Cells are incredibly expensive and yet have how Penetration work not make sense with the rest of the rules. *shrug*

I see what you did there. It was unhelpful and unclear, and wrong in places. O-Cells are immune to Penetration under your version; how can you say they're not? That's the core of your argument. I've also pointed out multiple ways that it doesn't fit the existing rules.

What redundancy? Limiting 'any defenses' to 'just dice adder defenses' is clearly changing (excluding things from) the intentionally-broad meaning of 'any defenses', in a way that Armor Penetration specifically avoids (it specifies 'armor'). My proposed interpretation certainly does not contradict 'similar to AP'; Penetration counters defenses, but not Body, just as AP does.

I said I wouldn't, but just for fun: "Penetration rating affects the rating of any protective system used to defend against it". In what universe can you argue that O-Cells aren't a protective system used to defend against pathogens? That's the argument you *have* to make.

Let's break it down: are O-Cells a protective system? Yes.
Are they used to defend against pathogens? Yes.
Are they, then, a protective system used to defend against pathogens? Yes.

By reducing the power, O-cells may affect how the other protective measures function. It is not solely automatic successes on that test.

So, it's even stronger? That's an argument *against* giving them *more* special power, not for it. And they're not really expensive, certainly not 'incredibly' so.

--
Sooo… why do ghouls get all the infamy? HMHVV II is Power 13, Penetration 6, and works in only 3 hours (3 tests)… and also says Contact vector. That's vastly worse, and even toturi's super O-Cells can't stop it.

I do not know if it is even stronger. All I know that O-cells function differently from the other protective measures. I am not sure that O-cells are part of protective measures that defend against the pathogen/toxin.

Let's break it down: are O-Cells a protective system? Yes.
Are they used to defend against pathogens in similar fashion to AP and Armor? No.
Are they, then, a protective system used to defend against pathogens subject to Penetration? No.

Ooh, cheater. You're misplacing modifiers. It doesn't say "defend as armor does". Sneaky. You raise a good point, though: if they wanted to, they could have specified that. They didn't.
You can't possibly say this in good faith. Maybe you mean you're not sure they defend in the same way, or in a valid way, but they manifestly do *defend*. That's their stated purpose and function.

Just for the record, it's not *required* that you be a jerk by aping my posts.

By the Way
there is also Transgenetic Immunisation (costs 20.000 or 30.000 ¥) against HMHVV


with an Immunisation Dance
Medicineman