Ok. I'm at my wits end, and I'm hoping that some of you here can help me out.
I've been playing and running Shadowrun for a long time, but none of my players were really interested in magic, until now. Now everyone's playing mages and a serious debate has recently come up. Please help me understand this...
Why in the world would you ever take an Elemental Manipulation Spell like Lightnight Bolt or Acid Stream, over the tried-and-true Powerbolt/ball and Manabolt/ball?
First off, PB and MB are listed as Combat spells, which means they ignore armor (except magical or special armor, etc). Those elemental spells don't (although lightning bolt states that metal armor offers no protection).
Also, PB and MB have static target numbers, equal to the targets Body or Will. The elemental spells require a to-hit roll, which I imagine (since it doesn't say anywhere to the contrary) means that typical ranged attack modifiers will modify the TN. It stands to reason then that the target of an Elemental attack spell can use his Combat Pool to dodge. Unless I missed something here, victims of PB or MB don't get to use their Combat Pool. They just have to soak the damage and hope to live (not likely).
And lastely, considering the above imbalance between the two types of offensive spells, the Elemental Manipulations have a HIGHER Drain???
Please tell me I'm missing something here.
Full Version: Magic Help!
As it is a ranged attack, I allow my players to use combat pool to hit. This makes it just as useful in my opinion as combat spells.
You are missing that combat spells are an entire category if spells specifically devoted to hurting things in the most efficient and effective way possible.
Damaging manipulations get wierd side effects which can be usefull, inconvenient, or irellevant depnding on the situation but they are not just causing damage in the simplest and most generally effective way.
To turn your dilema on its head who would ever take a combat spell if damaging manipulations were just as powerfull and had bonus side effects?
PS I think all those damaging manipulations should be combat spells anyway following the principal that anything that can reasonably not be a manipulation spell should not be a manipulation spell.
Damaging manipulations get wierd side effects which can be usefull, inconvenient, or irellevant depnding on the situation but they are not just causing damage in the simplest and most generally effective way.
To turn your dilema on its head who would ever take a combat spell if damaging manipulations were just as powerfull and had bonus side effects?
PS I think all those damaging manipulations should be combat spells anyway following the principal that anything that can reasonably not be a manipulation spell should not be a manipulation spell.
Several reasons come to my (deranged)mind 
1: They are Two spells for the price of one. MB/PB only work against their respective targets, living or nonliving. EM's work on both.
2: Secondary effects. If you don't die you burn.
3: The ability to shoot around corners. MAna based combat spells only work in LOS, AOE EM's (I love acronyms
) will effect what you don't have LOS to as long as there is Line Of Effect from the center of the spell.
4: True static TN's. Unlike mana based combat spells where the TN is the targets attribute, EM's have straight TN 4 modified for cover and visibility only no range mods are used.
I personally love to use Elemental spells and these are just some of the reasons I like them so much.
But like everything else, here it's just my opinion
1: They are Two spells for the price of one. MB/PB only work against their respective targets, living or nonliving. EM's work on both.
2: Secondary effects. If you don't die you burn.
3: The ability to shoot around corners. MAna based combat spells only work in LOS, AOE EM's (I love acronyms
) will effect what you don't have LOS to as long as there is Line Of Effect from the center of the spell.4: True static TN's. Unlike mana based combat spells where the TN is the targets attribute, EM's have straight TN 4 modified for cover and visibility only no range mods are used.
I personally love to use Elemental spells and these are just some of the reasons I like them so much.
But like everything else, here it's just my opinion
I thought somewhere hitting someone with PB or MB can also be adjusted if they are in cover. Like 50% cover adds to the willpower/body of the target for attacking TN# purposes. If I remember correctly it can be just as hard to hurt a person with PB or MB just because you can barley see then.
Also Em just look cool when they go off.
I also maybe wrong,but you can still use combat pool to soak the damage from PB or MB.
Also Em just look cool when they go off.
I also maybe wrong,but you can still use combat pool to soak the damage from PB or MB.
You are right fragg, visibility/cover modifiers are added into both Combat and Elemental Manipulation spells. Also, if you get the same number of sucesses as the caster on a Combat spell, the spell does absolutely nothing, you do not have to stage it down. Elemental Manipulations must be staged all the way down, requiring a LOT more sucesses to take no damage.
| QUOTE (sidartha) |
| 1: They are Two spells for the price of one. MB/PB only work against their respective targets, living or nonliving. EM's work on both. |
Powerballs are not restricted to nonliving targets, only to physical targets. That includes physical living targets.
Otherwise those are all great reasons, as well as all the others on this thread.
Also, Elemental Manipulations are considered ranged attacks, allowing them to benefit from the Enhance Aim spell. Of course, that's subject to just how cheesy your GM finds this to be
Wait combat pool can be used for resisting which types of spells?
AFAIK, you can not use combat pool to stage down the effects of Combat Spells. You either beat the number of successes and the spell has no effect or your resistance roll just reduces the number of successes, that's it.
Contest of Wills for Spirit fighting. Willpower is used for the character, does the spirit fight back like normal combat and net successes are looked at. Or does it effect more like a ranged attack? Seems to be combat, but what attribute. Do they still use reaction, or do they use Willpower.
[This is in the magic section, I see it as the seem thread. So if anyone thinks this should be elsewhere. I respectfully will find a different thread, however I find this to be prefectly good.]
[This is in the magic section, I see it as the seem thread. So if anyone thinks this should be elsewhere. I respectfully will find a different thread, however I find this to be prefectly good.]
OK my mistake Combat pool can onl be used to ressit EM spells.
Elemental effects can be handy versus paracritters (Nova vs. vampires, natch).
And, of course, the FX. You can take the mage out of the fantasy campaign, but they still want their fireballs and lightning bolts.
Finally, elemental adepts get bonuses for their types, do they not?
And, of course, the FX. You can take the mage out of the fantasy campaign, but they still want their fireballs and lightning bolts.
Finally, elemental adepts get bonuses for their types, do they not?
| QUOTE (252) |
| Contest of Wills for Spirit fighting. Willpower is used for the character, does the spirit fight back like normal combat and net successes are looked at. Or does it effect more like a ranged attack? Seems to be combat, but what attribute. Do they still use reaction, or do they use Willpower. [This is in the magic section, I see it as the seem thread. So if anyone thinks this should be elsewhere. I respectfully will find a different thread, however I find this to be prefectly good.] |
I think I would say it is just like Melee, and the spirit uses its Force. Force would determine its reaction and willpower, most things a mage does for or against a spirit is usually aimed at its force. So I think I would cop out and say the spirit uses its force. The book doesn't say neither does the errata or the FAQ.
BenLarkin, you've got it mostly right about the Elemental Manipulation spells. Magicians typically learn way more Combat Spells than Elemental Manipulation Spells. A magician soon learns, however, that significant threats often have Willpower 6 or greater, and use Karma Pool as needed to not be affected by Manabolt or Stunball. (As a GM, you'll soon define "Significant Threat" as what it takes to stand up to YOUR players' characters, and you have to make significant threats in order to challenge your players.)
An experienced magician might learn a high-force Elemental Manipulation to get a lower TN against significant threats. Consider Acid Stream (or similar) at Force 9, Exclusive for Drain. When cast at 9L damage, the magician resists 4M drain. What gets past Dodge is very tough to resist as the target gets only HALF impact armor. (Learning a Force 9 spell, however, might take a few months.)
Many new magicians take a firearm skill of some sort (e.g. Pistols). But Pistols 6 is the equivalent of 41 Karma points. If the magician puts 7 Karma into an Elemental Manipulation spell (Exclusive for Drain) soon after character creation, he'll do roughly equivalent damage to a typical target in 5/3 armor, and even better if he's a Raccoon Shaman. And best of all, he never has to turn in his Spell to the Bouncer at the door.
Against a Materialized Force 6, 7, or 8 Spirit or Elemental, most Firearms and most Combat Spells have trouble. But immunity to Normal Weapons doesn't help against an Elemental Manipulation spell.
An experienced magician might learn a high-force Elemental Manipulation to get a lower TN against significant threats. Consider Acid Stream (or similar) at Force 9, Exclusive for Drain. When cast at 9L damage, the magician resists 4M drain. What gets past Dodge is very tough to resist as the target gets only HALF impact armor. (Learning a Force 9 spell, however, might take a few months.)
Many new magicians take a firearm skill of some sort (e.g. Pistols). But Pistols 6 is the equivalent of 41 Karma points. If the magician puts 7 Karma into an Elemental Manipulation spell (Exclusive for Drain) soon after character creation, he'll do roughly equivalent damage to a typical target in 5/3 armor, and even better if he's a Raccoon Shaman. And best of all, he never has to turn in his Spell to the Bouncer at the door.
Against a Materialized Force 6, 7, or 8 Spirit or Elemental, most Firearms and most Combat Spells have trouble. But immunity to Normal Weapons doesn't help against an Elemental Manipulation spell.
Having a nice variety of elemental manips is always a good thing.
Laser, acid, or lightning to get past armor.
Metal to deal with certain critters, mess up radar and leave sharp things on the road.
Ice to kill all those species of mobile predatory plants.
Fire to set off the enemy grenadier (in some cases, magic fingers works as well).
Sand to be a jerk around open machinery.
Blast to deal with that odd phobia of pottery.
The list goes on.
Laser, acid, or lightning to get past armor.
Metal to deal with certain critters, mess up radar and leave sharp things on the road.
Ice to kill all those species of mobile predatory plants.
Fire to set off the enemy grenadier (in some cases, magic fingers works as well).
Sand to be a jerk around open machinery.
Blast to deal with that odd phobia of pottery.
The list goes on.
| QUOTE (Ancient History @ Mar 15 2004, 06:49 PM) |
| elemental adepts get bonuses for their types, do they not? |
Nope. No bonus to an Elemental Adept (Magic = Priority B) for spells or spirits of their type, just the ability to use their type (SR3 p. 160 "Elementalist"). They have no ability to use spells / spirits of other types, and have a penalty to resisting spells or dispelling spirits opposite to their type.
An Elemental Mage (Magic = Priority A) is what you are thinking of. They do get a bonus to their type (MitS p. 17) and can employ other types of spells / spirits, but have a penalty for the type opposite to theirs.
The fact that the elemental spells have a tn of 4 should make them more attractive if you're going against a heavy hitter. a PB against a troll is going to have a much higher number than a human.
Combat spells are all or nothing. If the defense/resistence test overcomes your successes the spell does nothing. Otherwise it does its selected damage plus staging.
Elemental Manipulation spells need to be staged down. So technically the defender needs more successes (depending on where they are coming from) to shrug off the entire effects of the spell.
Elemental Manipulation spells need to be staged down. So technically the defender needs more successes (depending on where they are coming from) to shrug off the entire effects of the spell.
| QUOTE (OurTeam) |
| Nope. No bonus to an Elemental Adept (Magic = Priority B) for spells or spirits of their type, just the ability to use their type (SR3 p. 160 "Elementalist"). |
Just as a nitpick, it's "aspected Elementalist." The term "adept" refers solely to, well, adepts.
Yup, Lime. I just chose to use the word Ancient History used, which we are both familiar with from 2nd edition. In third edition they are called "Elementalist", as I referenced in my note.
[nit]: the book doesn't say "aspected Elementalist", it says "Elementalist". SR3.160 second column. An Elementalist is one type of Aspected Magician.[/nit]
Thanks for being detail-oriented. I am too, and I appreciate it in others.
[nit]: the book doesn't say "aspected Elementalist", it says "Elementalist". SR3.160 second column. An Elementalist is one type of Aspected Magician.[/nit]
Thanks for being detail-oriented. I am too, and I appreciate it in others.
"You are right fragg, visibility/cover modifiers are added into both Combat and Elemental Manipulation spells"
Which, frankly, is stupid...it makes no sense for Combat spells to...well, nevermind, see the thread on it.
Which, frankly, is stupid...it makes no sense for Combat spells to...well, nevermind, see the thread on it.
Actually they are still aspected, hence the use of aspected Elementalist. Just like aspected Sorcerers, Shamanists, and Conjurers. But who's counting?
But who's counting?
That reminds me of something interesting I noticed about combat spells and EM spells too, although I'm not sure if that was resolved here...
when Power shot is against a nonliving target, you merely have to successfully role against the object's resistance (depending on the complexity of it, etc, etc). Considering the 'breaking doors' rules say very little about being busted by magic short of that EM spells TN, one could assume power ball just plain destroys a choice selection of your target.
now with power ball, you could claim a larger chunk, since it hits more than one visible target (but that would be at the whims of a GM).
EM spells may not be perfect against busting walls or such in this way (acid would do well though) but they're marvelous against automobile and such (I did some math on it, and I recall it was more beneficial to go EM over CS with auto's).
Mind you, this is all old reasoning, and no doubt there are some arguements on it. ^-^; So both types have their moments.
I do agree EM makes a wonderful 'elemental gun' than taking something like pistols, however
when Power shot is against a nonliving target, you merely have to successfully role against the object's resistance (depending on the complexity of it, etc, etc). Considering the 'breaking doors' rules say very little about being busted by magic short of that EM spells TN, one could assume power ball just plain destroys a choice selection of your target.
now with power ball, you could claim a larger chunk, since it hits more than one visible target (but that would be at the whims of a GM).
EM spells may not be perfect against busting walls or such in this way (acid would do well though) but they're marvelous against automobile and such (I did some math on it, and I recall it was more beneficial to go EM over CS with auto's).
Mind you, this is all old reasoning, and no doubt there are some arguements on it. ^-^; So both types have their moments.
I do agree EM makes a wonderful 'elemental gun' than taking something like pistols, however
Actually, Cold-Dragon, the rules have a lot of information about spells blasting through barriers, but unfortunately these rules are scattered in multiple places. It's hard to do with a Combat Spell, and a little easier with an EM spell. Automobiles are tough as well, but I'll focus on doors in this post.
Note that if a Door takes Deadly Damage, it is no longer functional as a door (i.e. perhaps it won't open any more). That doesn't mean it's not there any more. If you cram a Ford Americar in a doorway you can do a deadly to it and it'll no longer operate. But it is still stuck in the doorway.
Here are rules for getting through a Barrier with a Spell:
Note that if a Door takes Deadly Damage, it is no longer functional as a door (i.e. perhaps it won't open any more). That doesn't mean it's not there any more. If you cram a Ford Americar in a doorway you can do a deadly to it and it'll no longer operate. But it is still stuck in the doorway.
Here are rules for getting through a Barrier with a Spell:
[ Spoiler ]
Erf, you found the rest of the material I couldn't remember then. ^-^; Well, it's good to see it organized at least.
Upon reading the spoiler (hehe, that was a nice feature) I recalled I did come to that conclusion about doors. Big tough ones are no fun.
I know when I did this, to my knowledge CS didn't work quite like EM spells did against such barriers, but the theory of a health bar was an option. I don't remember what made me believe a CS spell didn't use those regular rules right there either.
I DEFINITELY remember reading again and again to see if the damage rating (L,M,S,D) made any difference, so I believe that's why I judged CS spells to be EM spells to a point.
Oh well, with this at least I can understand better, thanks for spoiler again!
Upon reading the spoiler (hehe, that was a nice feature) I recalled I did come to that conclusion about doors. Big tough ones are no fun.
I know when I did this, to my knowledge CS didn't work quite like EM spells did against such barriers, but the theory of a health bar was an option. I don't remember what made me believe a CS spell didn't use those regular rules right there either.
I DEFINITELY remember reading again and again to see if the damage rating (L,M,S,D) made any difference, so I believe that's why I judged CS spells to be EM spells to a point.
Oh well, with this at least I can understand better, thanks for spoiler again!
You're welcome. It did take a lot of work to track down all those details. I didn't get it right the first time, and other dumpshockers corrected me. Luckily I posted the corrected rules all together, and it was simple to find that earlier post.
Dosen't the door become easier to break through as it takes damage? IE: once you get the BR down a bit you'll start blowing 1/2 meter chunks out of it?
Yup. That's what I describe in my post.
This is why el.ma.s are awesome...lightning bolt, drone. 'Nuff said.
Bah, Lightning bolt is useless against a drone. Granted it's better than Wreck: Vehicle where your TN is a minimum of 8 and against any useful vehicle is in the Teens, but vehicles auto-stagedown the power and damage code of Elemanips as usual which makes their power ineffective.
That's why you just use an Elemental Manipulation spell with Elemental Ice. Doesn't matter what the Power is; it forces any moving vehicle to make a Crash Test and stall. The terrain is also consider Trecherous until th end of the Turn.
it's true drones and such tone down damage from things like EM, but you still increase the damage level with successes. Since objects can't roll back, you merely have to use the amount of power that will still work, and then roll.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| That's why you just use an Elemental Manipulation spell with Elemental Ice. Doesn't matter what the Power is; it forces any moving vehicle to make a Crash Test and stall. The terrain is also consider Trecherous until th end of the Turn. |
Yeah, that works a lot better. Provided your opponent isn't using the incredibly cheap and overpowered Stratos-9 and it's MMG.
aim a flamethrower at the feed side of the MMG if possible? MMG go boom, new hole in side from ammo going off?? ;>
just guess/thought, cars and mounted weapons aren't my specialty.
just guess/thought, cars and mounted weapons aren't my specialty.
Elemental Ice works just as effectively against flying vehicles as they do ground vehicles.
Y'know, I used to think there was no point to combat spells when EM's were handy. I still tend to prefer them for my big fragoff spells.
EM's, unlike combat spells, can be used for Called Shots. While the precice value of a called shot depends on your GM, this can be a big edge. (Okay, there's not much value in making a called shot with a Fireball, but it's useful for the humor effect.) You can specifically fry cyberware, for example; or blow off a drone's antenna, or try and cook off their ammo bin.
EM's, unlike combat spells, can be used for Called Shots. While the precice value of a called shot depends on your GM, this can be a big edge. (Okay, there's not much value in making a called shot with a Fireball, but it's useful for the humor effect.) You can specifically fry cyberware, for example; or blow off a drone's antenna, or try and cook off their ammo bin.
My 
2:
1 - Mages will be mages. This is a thought that I borrowed from another thread.
2 - If you could really do magic, which would you choose? A spell with no visible effect OR one that everyone could see?
- theartthief
2: 1 - Mages will be mages. This is a thought that I borrowed from another thread. 2 - If you could really do magic, which would you choose? A spell with no visible effect OR one that everyone could see?- theartthief
I don't have my books with me, (I'm on vacation), but there's one other bonus to lightning attacks - any successful lightning (electrical) attack against cybered opponents Automatically damages cyberware (MM - in the healing/surgery section I think).
Even if you don't kill them, you've not only given them injury mods, plus as a bonus, at least one piece of cyberware is damaged. So an enemy mage who only took cybereyes is now blind, for example.
Even if you don't kill them, you've not only given them injury mods, plus as a bonus, at least one piece of cyberware is damaged. So an enemy mage who only took cybereyes is now blind, for example.
| QUOTE (theartthief) |
| My 2: 1 - Mages will be mages. This is a thought that I borrowed from another thread. 2 - If you could really do magic, which would you choose? A spell with no visible effect OR one that everyone could see? - theartthief |
Y'know, that's a good point...EMs probably have a SHITLOAD of intimidation value.
Minor point here...but some Shaman Totems offer bonus dice for manipulation spells. So if your totems is say Racoon then lightning bolt (or whatever) may be preferable to a mana bot. This is especially true if your an aspected Shaman (ie can only cast spells and summon spirits of types that your totem gives a bonus to).
CS are meant to be destructive and hurt, they're made for combat, not breaking walls (as much as I hate to admit, hehe).
EM spells are designed to give you some control of an element, but is still combat oriented. Course, you can use them for other, simpler purposes too.
flamethrower is the ultimate match or pyrotechnic display
the acid one is good for wall opening or loosening things.
Lightning fries cybers, can power anything that uses electicity and can store the power (a lightning rod helps) and for those that permit very minor uses, it's good for shock therapy.
any others I don't recall or don't know because I only got SR3 and not MitS.
EM spells are designed to give you some control of an element, but is still combat oriented. Course, you can use them for other, simpler purposes too.
flamethrower is the ultimate match or pyrotechnic display
the acid one is good for wall opening or loosening things.
Lightning fries cybers, can power anything that uses electicity and can store the power (a lightning rod helps) and for those that permit very minor uses, it's good for shock therapy.
any others I don't recall or don't know because I only got SR3 and not MitS.
| QUOTE (Tatertot) |
| Minor point here...but some Shaman Totems offer bonus dice for manipulation spells. So if your totems is say Racoon then lightning bolt (or whatever) may be preferable to a mana bot. |
Racoon shamans are a special case. They not only get a bonus to Manipulation spells, but they get a penalty to Combat spells. For them, foregoing combat spells is an easy choice.
Yeah Ole Platinum here used Power Ball all the time.
But then Lighting Bolt just add's flavor
But then Lighting Bolt just add's flavor
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