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I was curious if anybody knew the "Standard Operating Procedure" for burials and cyberware. Is it salvaged and sold as secondhand ware? Somehow I doubt that, I mean, yes, the black market is certainly going to be filled with it, but what about legal burials?

The reason I ask is possession spirits with regeneration can sit in a dead body and it wont ever decay.

they may have another category in their driver's licence next to Organ Donor that says Cyberware Donor.
but then again if you had an uncle that died and she had a metal plate or knee or shoulder pins from some surgeries, do you salvage them so you can sell them at the metal salvage yards?
I think there may be still some 'humanity' left in 2072 SR world to let the dead rest in peace.

As for the spirits, well current traditional church procedures can extend to the astral with warding/killing of said spirits inhabiting the body before letting the body into the ground.
But maybe cremation is the way to go for majority of people so that limits the possession spirits living in dead bodies game smile.gif
I think there's a big difference between metal pins and complex, expensive implanted electronics. Bone lacing and things probably wouldn't go anywhere (can you imagine?), but cyberlimbs? Implanted comms? Cybereyes, for sure.
Im not so sure, Yerameyahu, it seems to me that people would be upset if the open casket body only had one or two limbs. I just dont think that your average person will be ok with that type of behavior. Though, perhaps burial has become so expensive that harvesting for resale is the only way the family could afford a decent plot/headstone.

I'm also curious about cremation in 2072.
Being upset is the base state in Shadowrun. smile.gif

Presumably, no one could afford burial, and your limbs probably belong to the corp anyway. Cremation is better, and some emerging non-cremation disposal methods are better still.
QUOTE (Ramaloke @ Dec 20 2010, 11:55 PM) *
Im not so sure, Yerameyahu, it seems to me that people would be upset if the open casket body only had one or two limbs.

I think that the dead person is not going to be using said cyberlimbs, that you can put on just regular plastic limbs. They just have to look close enough to the original that the people looking at it could not know the difference.
Current undertakers do worse, after all. smile.gif
well usual cremation once the furnase has finished its bizo the close family members then pick off the bones left on the tray and they they pummel them to make the ash.

so im guessing with the cyberred person they would have 2 different collectino trays. one for the bones and one for the cyber. you get to keep your grand mammas cyberhip. what you do with it its up to you smile.gif
Well, hold on, we've actually got something in the books that would prohibit atleast some ware harvesting.

Emphasis Mine:

QUOTE (Augmentation @ Page 32)

Though more affordable than competing augmentation technologies, cyberware is still expensive for the average consumer. Consequently, there’s a strong gray and black market for second-hand cyber available to the less discriminating customer. While most second-hand cyberware surfaces when former users upgrade implants and sell off their old ’ware, inevitably a lot of used cyberware finds its way to the market from more unsavory sources. Unfortunately, implantation problems tend to manifest more often with used cyberware than with new cyberware. Accordingly, most legal clinics shy away from used cyber, though backstreet shadowclinics and ripper docs will often have some in stock or know where to get hold of it.

Only standard and alpha-grade cyberware is available as second-hand cyberware. Beta and deltaware implants are too custom-tailored and modified to be fitted to anyone other than the person they were originally designed for. After locating a source for your second hand cyberware, apply the Essence Cost, Availability, and Cost modifiers as noted on the table below to the appropriate implant. Implantation is conducted as normal (see Installing/Repairing Cyberware and Bioware, p. 126).
So it seems that:

A) Most legal clinics wont touch anything harvested from a dead body, this would imply that there are at least some mortuaries that dont bother harvesting the ware. Since not many of them would know a black clinic they could sell the parts to. I mean, black clinics dont necessarily advertise as black clinics.

B) Anything above Alphaware is a non-starter. If somebody could afford all betaware cyber then Im sure they could afford to be buried. At the very least, there is some ware that wont be harvested simply because it's too custom to be of any use to others.
I think you're underestimating the proximity of Joe Average to the backstreets. Mrs. Average is approached or approaches them, ba-da-bing, ba-da-boom. It's a dark future. smile.gif I still strongly bet that there are situations where corps own your cyber and will take it back.

Yes, if you can afford beta, you can't sell your 'ware and don't really need to. *shrug* Doesn't change much. smile.gif Besides, don't forget that the 'rich' are people who can afford better soy. Burial is a luxurious strain on society today; in 2070, I just don't see it for anyone but the 1%-ers, and they probably wouldn't want it.
Oh, I'm sure there are, I'm just saying that a betaware cybered body should be buried on a relatively common basis in the world.

The reason I'm asking is that normally making "zombies", or spiritually possessed corpses, is a dumb idea. Zombies rot, they fall apart, they stink, and are in general, icky. However if the spirit has regeneration it will regenerate it's vessel and if they have aura masking + realistic form the body will even show vital signs and appear mundane in the astral. It seems that there would be value in finding a beta-cybered body and possessing it if you were such a spirit.


Maybe what I need for this purpose would be a mortician contact or somesuch.
Ha, I knew it was for some munchkin purpose! You. No, you cannot have a betaware-cybered vessel. nyahnyah.gif In other news, there are spirits with Regeneration?

In all seriousness, I really feel like burial is rare (rarer even than betaware). I'd have to search the canon for info about it, because it's just a feeling. smile.gif

SR4a mentions an 'unceremonious burial' in a fluff text (with an illustration of a 'secret shallow grave'-type situation), in the Barrens.
You caught me red handed! Yeah, I generally like come up with "why cant I's" or "what if's" like this.

For your reference:

QUOTE (Street Magic @ Page 109)
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always
This power is similar to the critter power of Regeneration (p. 290, SR4), and applies only to the spirit’s materialized, possessed, or inhabited form. Additionally, if the free spirit with this power possesses or inhabits a vessel that used to be alive, the vessel will gradually regenerate back to its original living form. A wooden homunculus grows leaves and roots, for example, while a corpse regains the semblance of life.
QUOTE (Street Magic @ Page 102)
Realistic Form
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Special
A spirit with Realistic Form can be mistaken for a normal physical creature or object when it materializes, or it appears unremarkable when joined to a vessel. A spirit that appears as a metahuman would have a heartbeat and a regular breathing rate. A spirit that appeared as an object mimics the object’s normal functionality; for example, a toaster could be plugged into the wall to toast bread (though it would have no Matrix link, making it an antique toaster). The spirit is in no way disguised from the astral plane, but to physical observation appears to any senses to be a natural part of the physical world. Note that spirits with the Materialization power normally only have one materialized form. Materializing spirits with this power can choose to appear using Realistic Form or their normal materialized form. A fire elemental can still appear as a column of angry flames, but might also be able to appear as a beautiful woman.
Ah, I hadn't heard about that; specifically for spirits. smile.gif I did know about Realistic Form.

So, sounds like your plan will work perfectly with a normal body, not a souped-up one. nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE (Augmentation p17)
Small-time criminals, chipheads, and drug addicts kidnap people and sell them to bodyshops for some quick nuyen; some even sell out their relatives, dead or dying, for spare parts. Why bury or cremate a body when you have cold, hard cash sitting on the slab?
So, this tells us a tiny bit. Bury and cremate must be options, and not everyone sells parts ('ware or meat), but some do. More:
It’s not just Tamanous either. I heard about this family in Des Moines, where the mother died from natural causes and they wanted to give her a proper funeral. The hospital she died in says they’ll take care of the details, for a nominal charge of course, and recommends cremation over casket burial. After some discussion, the family agrees. Frankly, it’s just cheaper. Anyway, the hospital presents the sealed casket so they can offer their final good-byes, and then they watch as the casket roll into the furnace. Half-hour later, they get a nice little gilt urn with her ashes. Neat and tidy, right?
Wrong. Turns out that the hospital took the mother’s body and resourced as much as they could out of it. Organs, blood, bones, whatever they could recycle for other purposes, they took. Didn’t even compensate the family. The sealed casket held what little was left over. The family would never have been the wiser if someone hadn’t fouled up the paperwork and asked for a signature.
I guess what I’m suggesting is that dead bodies have more monetary value than sentimental value. Some family members might be more valuable to their family dead than alive. It’s crazy to think that’s where society has gone.
So, again, burial is indeed an option for at least someone, but… smile.gif
If only because there is a *lack of uber bodies laying around.

*I still think that there would be a fair chance of finding said body.

Regardless, the combination would mean that a spirit is the perfect spy on the material. Gack some dude, possess his body, regenerate it and then waltz into his place of work.

The only big catch is the overall cost, you'd have to be an F8 free spirit to pull it off.
Keep in mind that unless you use Inhabitation rather than Possession, the spirit won't be able to use more than "basic", uncontrolled cyberware like Bone Lacing or stat boosts, but not stuff like cybersenses (eyes, ears, comlink...) and anything with DNI - yes this probably includes limbs.
Now, check this:
QUOTE (Runner's Companion p37)
Most obvious cyberlimbs are removed from an individual before burial or cremation, but Tamanous and other organizations, which perform such post-mortem modifications, can replace them with hollowed synthetic limbs.
It absolutely includes limbs, wires, anything good. biggrin.gif
Which brings up another idea (get ready to shake your head in munchkin horror)...

So regeneration on corpses puts the body "to rights" on what it would look like when alive, what about when the spirit leaves the body. Does this mean that you could say, harvest a heart, possess + regenerate + jump out, then harvest a heart etc etc etc. Seems like spirits could be organ factories. I mean, at a certain point you have to say "no, you cant just create matter from nothing," but by RAW, it seems to work. Silly, but presumably possible.

Secondly: Bodylegging Via Possession Spirits. It seems like an obvious way to make money, anybody have any idea what an average joe body is worth? More than binding materials for an appropriately strong possession spirit?
Honestly, I feel like those hearts probably aren't worth as much as the time of a powerful spirit. smile.gif Ditto second question.

Really, any 'money cheat' is to be struck down regardless of legality, anyway. wink.gif It's fun to dream them up, but everyone knows you wouldn't use them. It's the same as 'why don't I just steal cars, or make drugs, or pirate BTLs/software…'.

Here's the fluff: Tamanous will come murder you. Done. biggrin.gif

Don't forget, you're talking about *free* spirits.
I dont know, it has more applications than just money-cheating.

Consider this: If you were to bind (or have bound) enough spirits to possess all the guys you would have killed anyway, you can just have them walk out of the "kill zone". Less evidence to inspect if they all just get up and leave. If you can make money at the same time, why not? Granted, it might become unbalanced, but you were going to "loot" the bodies if you had the chance anyway, why not get some moola for their body parts?


For the regeneration, yes, free spirits are a must, for the bodylegging? Viable without free spirits, probably best without them actually.
Personally, I frown on extensive looting as well. smile.gif Hello, RFID/chem nanotaggants!

Yes, there are 'real' applications for possession, which is why it's in the game.
Well, it seems to me that you cant have it both ways. If selling organs from the dead and dying (or even the perfectly healthy) is so common as to make burial unlikely and unpopular, if the setting is so dark, you cant really complain when your players do the same.

At the same time, do you really expect "body looting" to be an unpopular thing to be done? I know any ganger that kills a dude for *insert reason here* is going to see what he can make off the body. If there is cash money to be had, they'll do what they can to earn it as long as it doesn't put their ass in a sling.
I sure can. smile.gif They're shadowrunners, they have jobs to do, and it's a game. While there are campaigns in which scavenging and looting is appropriate, it's honestly boring in the typical game. Either it's too much of a hassle to bother with (I didn't make up the taggants and nanotags, and selling bodies has its own issues), or it's too easy; the GM might as well just 'pay' them more and save everyone some time.

But we're not talking about that, which has been covered a lot in other threads. We're talking about money-cheating the universe and/or getting a super-vessel to make your crazy spirit even more godly. wink.gif
Yep, they are shadowrunners, and they are probably the most likely to be able to make use of dead bodies than your average ganger. I mean, your players are the ones most likely to have a method of nulling RFID tags, and more likely to have contacts that could do what needs to be done and get them in touch with somebody who knows how to make a profit off the bodies usually laying in their wake.

As far as the supervessel thing, /meh, its probably best to find a living vessel anyway.
I agree: it's *possible*. The question is whether it's appropriate, fun, and above all, balanced. In each specific campaign, again; sometimes, the answer *is* 'yes'.
I wonder how much it'd be worth to that free spirit to have a uber-genetically engineered body designed expressly for inhabiting...

Probably prohibitively expensive, but a good use of a spirits nuYen, if it could earn some. It is too bad Inhabitation is unavailable for players unless you go through some shenanigans to get it (detailed in my Inhabitation and You thread).


If you just mean possession, there are probably better options. Take a look at the various golems in Street Magic, for example.
That's definitely the kind of thing a spirit would do, working through various intermediaries, of course. But it (and the player) would pay for it appropriately.
Now there is a thing : does Possession by a spirit with Regeneration allow to heal/regenerate a mutilated lving host ?

If yes, this could be an Essence-firendly alternative to cultured body grafts for the Awakened... and a relatively safe way to quick healing for a mage with Channeling.
Regarding corp owned cyberware and said corp wanting it back: has anybody seen the movie 'Repo men'? It's exactly that topic and I found it quite good and relating somewhat to dark future. The corps design cool electronic implants (like: organ replacements) and they're so expensive that most people normally take loans. Then when they can't pay back the loan on time, 'repo men' arrive and take the organ back, usually ending the whole thing rather unpleasant for the former owner. That's the premise of the movie at least smile.gif

I think it perfectly sane if you owe somebody or some corp money, or the cyberware, they would want to collect, before your death or after. But if you're terribly rich, you can probably afford to have the ware destroyed with your body. Maybe it's something covered in a will? And ff you're poor and die on the street, your body will probably be eaten anyway and the ware sold to a street doc.
If a player tried to abuse that tactic (incredibly rare powerful free spirits with both possession and regeneration, who inexplicable *don't* doublecross you), I'd say the healing for 'mutilation' (missing parts) is slower than normal regeneration (hours or days).

I can see it being used at appropriately dramatic and rare points, though. smile.gif
Now there is a thing : does Possession by a spirit with Regeneration allow to heal/regenerate a mutilated lving host ?

We play regeneration very similar to D20 (please don't spit). Regeneration applies if the damage took place while you had the regeneration power active.
Well, the text is clear that the vessel is restored, though. I'd just tweak things to discourage any crazy use. smile.gif The first weapon against that is 'Seriously? No. Moving on…'. biggrin.gif
Dead is dead...

Parts is parts...

Dead guys is parts...
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 21 2010, 04:21 PM) *
If a player tried to abuse that tactic (incredibly rare powerful free spirits with both possession and regeneration, who inexplicable *don't* doublecross you), I'd say the healing for 'mutilation' (missing parts) is slower than normal regeneration (hours or days).

I can see it being used at appropriately dramatic and rare points, though. smile.gif

I don't know why they'd bother to abuse that tactic - If they can go to that much trouble, wouldn't it be easier to get a free spirit with the wealth power?
Indeed. I totally agree: the time and effort of *free* spirit that powerful is already worth more. smile.gif
I suspect that the vast, vast majority of people are probably cremated. If you think how stupid expensive it is for a full burial now I can only imagine it is even more rediculous in 2072. Therefor it makes sense that cyberware, particularly large pieces like a cyberlimb would be removed prior to the cremation. A datajack and the like might be left in place but not a cyberarm. The body would probably be left intact until the viewing was over and the ware removed just prior to the cremation itself. Anything smaller would be left in the body and removed from the ashes before they were placed in an urn.

As for what happens to it afterwards. I doubt very much that it simply gets turned around and sold to another individual, but I'm sure it is recycled for parts, much the same way that electronics are recycled today.
But you don't need a Free Spirit for the Regeneration ploy. 'Just' an Invoked Plant spirit.
QUOTE (imperialus @ Dec 22 2010, 11:22 AM) *
As for what happens to it afterwards. I doubt very much that it simply gets turned around and sold to another individual, but I'm sure it is recycled for parts, much the same way that electronics are recycled today.

Wouldn't 'grampa's right arm' be an artifact the family would keep? Especially if he put it into his will?
Do you keep grampa's computer? smile.gif
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 22 2010, 11:27 AM) *
Do you keep grampa's computer? smile.gif

Well, I'd want to have it long enough to take the photos and the incriminating data off of it before I sold or recycled it. In retrospect, I would think most people would want Grampa's arm to stay with Grampa, but if he is being cremated, that won't happen. Certainly I would rather have the arm myself than have the undertaker sell it out the back door.
QUOTE (Runner's Companion @ page 35)
Hollow Cyberlimbs: Most obvious cyberlimbs are removed from an individual before burial or cremation, but Tamanous and other organizations, which perform such post-mortem modifications, can replace them with hollowed synthetic limbs. Standard Perception Test rules for identifying a synthetic limb apply.

Hollow Cybertorso: Due to the massive implications of removing a cybertorso to the integrity of the corpse, it is generally not removed from the body before burial, though internal organs are. This allows for the usage of standard or synthetic cybertorsos as a post-mortem implant.

To contribute to the talk of implants, not so much for possessing spirits.
That's what I quoted above, although mine says p37… I dunno which is right. biggrin.gif
Doh. Sorry, didn't mean to try and steal your thunder. I must have missed the post. It's page 35 in the book, 37 in the PDF because of the covers up front.
I'm pretty sure virtually everyone's cremated nowadays due to the threat of Shedim. It's in whichever of the Threats books Master Shedim appear in I believe.
Not my thunder, nooo! biggrin.gif I just noticed that we had different pages; you're right, I didn't go by the number actually written on the page. frown.gif

I think that whole section is very interesting, though. It seems to imply that cyberlimbs and internal organs are routinely removed from bodies for burial (and, therefore, also for cremation?).
FWIW--That section deals with the time old tradition of smuggling stuff in corpses. It's much easier (and cleaner!) to smuggle stuff when all the gooey parts are taken out. Embalming usually leaves the organs inside, except in the case of embalming after autopsy.

This and other creepy facts brought to you by research that often places me on FBI watchlists. =)
Ahhh, I see. Interesting.
Squiddy Attack
Maybe they just let you keep old dead Grandpa's arm for am extra fee. ork.gif
To touch on the Regeneration and a cybered corpse angle, wouldn't the regeneration power push out the cyber? Or is it not like the critter power of Regeneration?
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