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SleepIncarnate
Ok, as pretty much everyone knows, you get a +2 bonus to all Matrix actions while in hot sim, but here's an odd question, what about PCs and NPCs that have no choice in the matter? I'm talking mostly AIs and sprites, which are always in the Matrix and always hot sim. Do you give it to them?

And what kinds of things do you apply it to with other things you don't? Obviously the basic stuff like using programs and the like, but what about threading? Fading? Social tests while in VR?

Edited Topic Title for spelling. ~F4.0
Yerameyahu
They're not hot-sim or VR. They're digital natives.

The hot-sim bonus applies to Matrix tests (Matrix actions), which doesn't include social tests. I'm not positive about Technomancers, but I wouldn't think Threading (and the attendant Fading) would be *Matrix* tests. It's not accessing or manipulating any part of the Matrix. Compiling and Decompiling *are* Matrix tests, I'd say, because they're on the Matrix Actions list and they manipulate Matrix entities (even if it's in the bionode).

There are some actions specifically listed under Matrix Actions that don't necessarily involve (remote) Matrix access, but AFAIK none of those involve tests.
WyldKnight
My group always played with Threading counting as a matrix test. Why wouldn't it count? For the record the dice didn't apply to the fading test, just the initial threading role.
Yerameyahu
I could see justifying Threading and still not allowing it on Fading, yeah. It depends on the GM; the rules aren't explicit. This is, of course, only for flesh and blood Technomancers, not Resonance entities or metasapients… or Pilots, agents, etc.
WyldKnight
We always assumed they didn't get the bonus because of something on the hardware side.

As for the original topic we always limited matrix tests to stuff you could only do in the matrix. Stuff like social skills was definitely a no go. Do you have a TM trying this by threading empathy software to insane ranks and then trying to get an extra 2 dice out of your gm? For the record thats what I did, not the extra 2 dice mind you just the threading of empathy software to extra high ranks for an insane social dice pool.
Yerameyahu
Haha, as if it wasn't broken enough? smile.gif
WyldKnight
Good sir, nothing is ever broken enough biggrin.gif

No, it becomes really broken when I use my rating 8 empathy software to score teamwork dice for the main face. And that's how you turn a non optimized face into a true social beast.
Raiki
QUOTE (WyldKnight @ Dec 21 2010, 08:05 PM) *
Good sir, nothing is ever broken enough biggrin.gif

No, it becomes really broken when I use my rating 8 empathy software to score teamwork dice for the main face. And that's how you turn a non optimized face into a true social beast.



That's funny...I thought you just handed him an Emotitoy and called it a day. wink.gif




~R~
Yerameyahu
Seriously. Direct +6 = done. smile.gif
Saint Sithney
I'm even kind of shy about giving TMs the +2 hotsim bonus.

Hotsim is supposed to cook a guys brain. We're talking about a threshold 4 addiction test to avoid progressively burning out to the point of essence loss and death. Not that anyone plays with hotsim addiction anyway...

But just giving that "I am killing myself to get an edge" bonus to everything on the trix makes it completely meaningless.

AIs, as written, have limited growth potential, but the solution to that isn't give them +2 to everything right from the start. Personally, I'd prefer a Matrix-fu style system of buildable bonuses and techniques paralleling the Martial Arts rules. That would be wizard.
Yerameyahu
Well, technically they're always in hot-sim for the purposes of biofeedback, which counts as *some* trade-off. I agree about the hot-sim addiction, but if anyone's a special case, it's Technomancers. smile.gif
Teryn180
I really don't see any problem with Technomancers being addicted. When you live and breath something all your waking hours, not having it would make you more then a little twitchy.

Edit: Especially something of that close to reality.
Yerameyahu
Right, but they already have that. There's a 'no Matrix' penalty for them. Besides, they're literally never *not* in hot-sim, so there couldn't be a withdrawal or dose tolerance or anything. smile.gif
WyldKnight
QUOTE (Raiki @ Dec 21 2010, 05:26 PM) *
That's funny...I thought you just handed him an Emotitoy and called it a day. wink.gif




~R~


Not when to run it he needs a high end comlink he can't afford. Saved him money by just running it myself.

Wasn't there a thread with some matrix fu stuff like martial arts not to long ago? I swear I read it.

EDIT: Yup here it is.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=31786

Not exactly what you were talking about I think but it's a good idea nonetheless.
Yerameyahu
the Emotitoy runs it. That's the whole reason it's broken. smile.gif
WyldKnight
ohhhh really? We don't use emotitoys. We just use the software on comlinks. We don't use them because the first time one of us tried our gm said the johnson sees the little toy and knowing exactly what it is tells you to put it away or the deal is off.
ShadowWalker
What I did with my Technomancer was to use the SimRig complex form, and the skinlink echo. I then taped a comlink, with the empathy software on it, to the lower back.
I use the SimRig complex form to pass along, sight, sound, touch, etc to the software on the comlink taped to the back. Hard for someone to see that I'm using empathy software when done this way.
Having the comlink taped to the back also allows for easy file copying as it's directly connected via the skinlink echo.
Seth
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 22 2010, 02:28 AM) *
Well, technically they're always in hot-sim for the purposes of biofeedback, which counts as *some* trade-off. I agree about the hot-sim addiction, but if anyone's a special case, it's Technomancers. smile.gif

Technomancers can reboot. So when they go to sleep, then can choose to disconnect. When they get knocked out they are automatically booted. It takes ages (multiple hours) for them to get back in. They can be in a faradays cage. So its not uncommon for the Technomancer in our game to be disconnected from the matrix.

That said, I agree with the sentiment of the quote: for Technomancers being connected to the Matrix in hot sim, is their natural state.

QUOTE
Well, technically they're always in hot-sim for the purposes of biofeedback, which counts as *some* trade-off

I find this a big enough down side: especially with the scare of psycho-tropic black IC.

To answer the original question:
  • I give anyone in hot sim the +2 bonus on matrix actions: Technomancers / Hackers / Riggers
  • I don't give the bonus to threading or threading drain
  • I don't think social tests are matrix tests.
  • Interestingly I don't give it to sprites. This wasn't a deliberate choice, it just didn't occur to me that they might get it.
  • I treat AIs as unfathomable primal powers of vast capability (very much like the fiction). I don't have a player AI
Yerameyahu
Yeah, Seth. I know they can be disconnected; that's why the 'no matrix' penalty for them exists. smile.gif However, hot-sim still counts as active in their bionode, just as you can be in hot-sim on your commlink. There's nothing much to see, but you're still *there* (AFAIK).

ShadowWalker, right. smile.gif It works for hackers just as well, because they have high-end commlinks and real simrigs.
CeeJay
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 22 2010, 08:20 AM) *
However, hot-sim still counts as active in their bionode, just as you can be in hot-sim on your commlink.

Wait a minute! There are two distinct ways to experience the matrix. One is through AR, where you just get an overlay of the matrix over the physical world. The other one is virtual reality, where the physical world gets replaced by the matrix. There are two levels of virtual reality: cold sim and hot sim, that mainly differ in the "intensity" of the virtual reality. TMs don't have a choice here, they must run VR in hot sim mode. If I'm not mistaken, running a 'link in VR still means, that you go limp, since you don't feel your physical body any more.

But of course, a TM can choose to turn VR off and experience the matrix via AR. In fact, most TM will do that most of the time, since everybody needs to interact with the physical world on some degree (unless you have a total immersion lifestyle).

So, TMs should get the +2 hot sim bonus just like everbody else who has the choice between VR and AR mode.

-CJ
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (CeeJay @ Dec 22 2010, 09:05 AM) *
sical world on some degree (unless you have a total immersion lifestyle).

So, TMs should get the +2 hot sim bonus just like everbody else who has the choice between VR and AR mode.

-CJ


The funny thing is, even in AR technomancers are techincally "hot", since they take damage immediately.

But yeah, I would most definitely give them the bonus dice in VR. In AR... probably not. They just have to live with the risk and use their obscene program ratings to bypass the danger.
CeeJay
QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Dec 22 2010, 11:14 AM) *
The funny thing is, even in AR technomancers are techincally "hot", since they take damage immediately.

Yupp, that's the price they have to pay for the ability to access the matrix without a commlink.

-CJ
LurkerOutThere
For my part: If there is some risk increase to the character I give them the hotsim bonus, by this logic TM's and hotsim hackers (natch) pass but not sprites and AI's. If there is no increase in risk I do not (so no sprites or AI's). Now once we've established that baseline I'm very liberal with that bonus and give it for pretty much everything (including social tests and registering/compiling) because I firmly believe that if you take those risks you should net some rewards. Further I believe in the fluff that VR is a huge advantage (something that 4th ed seem to have done away with, can't have the Magicrun players be disapointed) and that hot sim is a further advantage over that. About the only thing I don't give it on is fading/damage resistance tests because it's counter intuitive.
Yerameyahu
I agree, CeeJay, but Brainpiercing pointed it out: they're always 'hot-sim vulnerable'. So I go by that, I guess? I dunno, I always kind of saw Technomancers as 'dual natured'. smile.gif
ShadowWalker
The bonus is supposed to be for the list of matrix actions. If it's not a matrix action, and they are all listed between the SR4(a) and Unwired.
Threading is listed as a matrix action, resisting damage, or fading is not listed as a matrix action. Hot-sim is supposed to be more dangerous,
makes you closer to the hardware, and so taking damage should be more serious than if you are running cold-sim.
I don't see doing a social skill being something that should get the bonus, to me it just doesn't make sense on why you are all of a sudden better
at interacting with people. Skill at social interactions is not based on how fast you are at doing it, it's based on your ability to identify the persons
reactions, body language, etc. Speed has very little to do with how good you do.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Seth @ Dec 22 2010, 12:09 AM) *
Technomancers can reboot. So when they go to sleep, then can choose to disconnect. When they get knocked out they are automatically booted. It takes ages (multiple hours) for them to get back in. ...
Something I cannot find in the SR4a book (technomancer rebooting), and Unwired just refers to SR4, page 221. Makes me think that the reboot rules for TMs have been removed.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Dec 22 2010, 07:31 AM) *
For my part: If there is some risk increase to the character I give them the hotsim bonus, by this logic TM's and hotsim hackers (natch) pass but not sprites and AI's. If there is no increase in risk I do not (so no sprites or AI's). Now once we've established that baseline I'm very liberal with that bonus and give it for pretty much everything (including social tests and registering/compiling) because I firmly believe that if you take those risks you should net some rewards. Further I believe in the fluff that VR is a huge advantage (something that 4th ed seem to have done away with, can't have the Magicrun players be disapointed) and that hot sim is a further advantage over that. About the only thing I don't give it on is fading/damage resistance tests because it's counter intuitive.


There are still significant advantages to running VR.
1) +1 reaction and +2 IPs costs you 250 It's near 80k for the next 2 IPs, but you can start with 5 IPs.
2) Additionally, raising your reaction with Response-increasing techniques can put you at an Initiative of 17 for a starting character, all far cheaper than investing in meat-world reaction.
3) Probing a target is faster.. that's... kinda cool.. Did I mention the starting Initiative of 17 w/ 5IPs? I'm not sure that got enough exposure..
Yerameyahu
Well, only "start with" if you have the Booster and the Accelerator (the former is expensive, the latter is Avail 14).

Your *Reaction* is not affected. Hot-sim increases your Matrix *Initiative* by +1 Init, +1 IP (over Cold-sim). I know that's what you meant, so I'm just clarifying. smile.gif

ShadowWalker, do you have the page ref for Threading as a Matrix Action? I know that Compiling is, but I didn't see Threading. Technically, the hot-sim bonus says 'Matrix tests', but I agree that that usually *means* 'Matrix actions'. smile.gif
ShadowWalker
Well, I was sure Threading was listed as a matrix action, and after looking it's not. In fact under it's description, and according to the FAQ it takes no action at all to do.
But I would still say that a Technomancer doing threading while in VR should get the +2 and a Technomancer doing threading in AR should get no bonus. However any
tests done to resist damage of any kind, either from matrix combat or fading there should be no bonus from hot-sim. Personally I think hot-sim should in fact get a negative
modifier for resisting damage, especially from black ice. If you remove the safety features and buffers etc. that protect your brain from damage you should be taking extra
when you do take damage.
Draco18s
Hot Sim males you vulnerable to black IC. Going back to Cold Sim and you're 100% immune. There's no need to introduce a penalty there.
ShadowWalker
You are not immune to Black IC attacks when using cold sim. Black Ice programs have no affect if you are connected via AR, but all VR connections can be affected by Black IC attacks.
Yerameyahu
See, ShadowWalker, that's the sticking point for me: why should a Technomancer in VR get +2 Threading, while one using AR doesn't? It's an innate bio-computer 'power'… what does it have to do with VR? You're creating/buffing complex forms inside your brain.
WyldKnight
I thought TMs couldn't turn off their hot sim even when in AR?
Yerameyahu
Yeah, that's a separate question. AFAIK, Technomancers are always in hot-sim, whatever that means. biggrin.gif Hot-sim is a kind of VR, never AR.

My personal gut call? Technomancers are 'dual natured' for VR (analogous to astral/physical dual-natured critters), so they can handle both. *shrug* I'm far from an expert on Technomancers, though! smile.gif
ShadowWalker
Hot-sim and cold-sim are only for VR. Technomancers can choose to be in AR or VR or even completely disconnected if they want, although none would choose that option.
When in VR technomancers have no choice and must be hot-sim. Since there is no hot-sim in AR they are not in hot-sim and have no hot-sim bonus.
Personally I think that the echo Mesh Reality should have been the default state of Technomancers, which would mean that they are always in VR and hot-sim, while still seeing
AR and real world all at the same time.
Yerameyahu
I see. smile.gif Still, it doesn't seem like the 'magical' act of Threading should be dependent on any of that, right?

Oh, here's the relevant line: "When technomancers immerse themselves in full VR, they are always considered to be running with hot sim (p. 226);" biggrin.gif Thanks for setting me straight.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Dec 23 2010, 03:55 AM) *
When in VR technomancers have no choice and must be hot-sim. Since there is no hot-sim in AR they are not in hot-sim and have no hot-sim bonus.
Personally I think that the echo Mesh Reality should have been the default state of Technomancers, which would mean that they are always in VR and hot-sim, while still seeing
AR and real world all at the same time.


But the point about hot-sim is being able to take damage because you turn off the safeties that slow you down in the matrix. Now when a normal hacker in AR enters matrix combat or sets off a databomb, he takes matrix damage to his icon. And that's a really irrelevant form of damage, because the worst that can happen is that the program crashes or the hacker is dumped.
But a technomancer takes stun damage - at least - every time he takes a box of matrix damage - be it in AR or VR. So there are no safeties, even in AR. The only advantage to AR is not having to become a sack, which - I admit - is a good fluff reason to not give them the hotsim bonus in AR. However, these disadvantages mean that technomancers really NEED to abuse the program ratings they can thread, in order to keep up with the normal hacker who possibly enjoys 4IPs in AR and has a boatload of pirated programs - and hacks at no personal risk whatsoever. A non-cheesed out technomancer doesn't seem competitive right now. Of course, my knowledge of them is rather limited so far, so my view on this situation may be wrong. People tell me that sprites are very powerful, so they might make a bit difference...

The other part of this question is whether VR is even awesome enough at all. IMHO the +2 isn't nearly enough as a bonus. A statistical 2/3s of a hit? come on...
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Dec 22 2010, 12:31 PM) *
I don't see doing a social skill being something that should get the bonus, to me it just doesn't make sense on why you are all of a sudden better
at interacting with people. Skill at social interactions is not based on how fast you are at doing it, it's based on your ability to identify the persons
reactions, body language, etc. Speed has very little to do with how good you do.

I'd point out that there is an actual Quality (Chatty, from Unwired) that gives you a Social skill boost if interacting with computer assistance. I'm not sure if that's an argument for or against the Hot Sim bonus applying to social skills, though.




-k
Draco18s
QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Dec 25 2010, 11:47 AM) *
But a technomancer takes stun damage - at least - every time he takes a box of matrix damage - be it in AR or VR.


And they don't even get biofeedback filters against it. Just their Armor CF.
SpellBinder
Actually, a TM's Charisma attribute or Resonance attribute (whichever is lower, per the Living Persona rules) acts as a Biofeedback Filter program rated to that attribute (SR4a, page 239) that sadly cannot be threaded to be improved since it's not really a Complex Form (usable only against Black Hammer and Blackout, of course).
tagz
I think what Draco meant by "And they don't even get biofeedback filters against it. Just their Armor CF." was that in AR that natural biofeedback filter won't help them.

Obviously they have their own biofeedback against blackout and hammer, but when a TM is in AR blackout and blackhammer will not work on his/her persona as it's not in VR. However, the persona can still take matrix damage like normal to the icon, the only difference is that unlike a hacker a TM takes stun damage when they're icon suffers matrix damage and this is NOT resisted with their biofeedback filter.

But I want to point out that TMs also get their Shield CF to their matrix defense pool to help reduce and avoid the damage in the first place, so a little better then just armor CF.

I think. My group decided a while back to NPC the matrix and I may have a few things mixed up since I haven't really done it in so long.
Draco18s
Yes, that's what I meant. The damage the techno suffers to his meatsack (due to "matrix icon damage") never gets resisted by "Biofeedback filters" despite being (potentially) lethal.
(This is regardless of AR or VR)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 26 2010, 10:41 AM) *
Yes, that's what I meant. The damage the techno suffers to his meatsack (due to "matrix icon damage") never gets resisted by "Biofeedback filters" despite being (potentially) lethal.
(This is regardless of AR or VR)


Mostly due to the fact that you do not really resist that meatsack damage... Icon Damage is translated over directly... Take 3 points of Icon Damage, take 3 points of Condition Monitor Damage... Of course, if your Icon takes no damage, then your Condition Monitor does not either...

Yet another reason why I prefer a Mundane Hacker over a Technomancer... wobble.gif
Draco18s
Yes. But see. The techno is at a disadvantage because the hacker has an extra blob of hitpoints before he starts bleeding. The techno does not.

Of course, I am already of the opinion that cybercombat "just kills you" anyway.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 26 2010, 12:12 PM) *
Yes. But see. The techno is at a disadvantage because the hacker has an extra blob of hitpoints before he starts bleeding. The techno does not.

Of course, I am already of the opinion that cybercombat "just kills you" anyway.


No Arguments there... The reason that is so is to balance out their powerful abilities in the Matrix with equally powerful drawbacks...

No worries though... I prefer the Mundane Hacker, but I do have a very interesting Technomancer nonetheless... wobble.gif
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