If you use the Adept power of Mind Over Matter: Charisma, do you get to use the Charisma to calculate the base damage of melee attacks?

"The adept is truly a master of mind over matter and may use one Mental attribute in place of one Physical attribute for any tests." (War!, p. 178)

For base damage? Strength isn't directly used in a test (i.e., you're not rolling Strength), so a strict reading probably wouldn't allow it. On the other hand, it's part of the damage from the opposed melee test, so a more liberal reading could allow it.

I'd probably rule, based on the one quoted sentence, that you'd have to be rolling the relevant attribute directly in a test to replace it. That way also limits the utility of the power to roughly its point value instead of creating an automatic dump stat. For instance, you don't get to wear heavier armor just because you have a high Willpower with this power, since the Body x 2 encumbrance rule isn't a test. The damage/spell resistance test is a test, though, so one could neglect Body and buy the YNT SoftWeave Armor and may be okay.

Mind Over Matter is pretty lack cluster power as it only replaces the attribute for test, not for all purposes.

So really the only build i see it as any use is a logic tradition combat mystic adept.
I had a couple interesting build ideas when i first read it, but all of those got crushed by the closer reading of the power reveling it only replaces the attribute on tests

This is correct, I was thinking along the same lines Max, I too am saddened

i was thinking of dumping reaction for intuition, but one can argue, that you roll initiative. that'll suck

depending on you group this power is either awesome or sucks.
I don't think it's unbalanced for the cost anyways

Well, I can see an Elf social adept with a few levels of critical strike taking this.

Again, that depends on your GM's reading of the power, since the Strength- (or Charisma-) based damage isn't directly rolled as a test.

The Logic Adept seems to be the best for this power...I don't remember any non-test uses for Agility. Body non-tests for physical damage track and armor encumbrance, Reaction non-tests in being figured into Initiative (which is then a separate stat), and Strength non-tests for base melee damage. If you don't mind giving up one of those, though, you might be okay.

I can use an Elf social adept with strength of 1 or 2 with an unarmed damage of 1S and taking, for instance, 6 levels of critical strike, netting a damage value of 7S. The high charisma will be used for any strength-test related (climbing, running, swimming, etc...)

Create a Mystic Adept of the hermetic tradition with Log 5, a Cerebral Booster 3 and Mind over Matter (logic) and you should have a good gunman with a very good drain resist pool. Other than that I don't see many good applications for this power. And even this example would be rather mediocre because of his low effective Magic attribute.

I was thinking of building a Medic Adept. Cerebral Booster 3, SURGEd Metagenetic Improvement (Logic), and Genetic Optimization (Logic) mean I can start with Logic 10 (or 11 if I really want to spend the 25 BP for that last point, or 1 less if I go for Ork or Troll). Biotech skill group at 4 (or I could crank up First Aid to 6 and specialize in Combat Wounds). I've rolled one with bioware and cyberware, but I may give it a go with an adept and Mind Over Matter so I effectively have two attributes at 10.

Even with a Firearms skill group of 1, I'm rolling 11 dice for shooting. That's without Smartlink or other assistance.

With Biotech skill group of 4, I'd be rolling 14 dice for medical stuff. That's without the Rating 6 medkit I'd certainly buy.

Or, with First Aid 6 and Combat Wounds specialization, I'd be rolling 18 dice to heal the street sam's wounds. Again, without the R-6 medkit.

go for imp ability first aid . you can only heal as much boxes equal to your skilllvl

That was one of the powers I was looking at, even though I hadn't remembered that it actually raises the skill rating (maxing out at 1.5 x base rating). That's pretty sweet.

You raise another interesting dilemma, that skill rating caps the boxes healed through First Aid. Further, the specialization doesn't increase the actual skill rating. With the non-adept I'd already rolled, there's basically no way I can get better with First Aid, since max skill is 6 and you can buy a R-6 medkit for 600 nuyen with no Availability roll required. On average, once I'm rolling at least 24 dice (averaging 8 hits before the threshold of 2), there's not much more I can do to get better results. (That's 18 dice before the medkit.) Of course, a 6-box First Aid heal is pretty good anyway, so I shouldn't complain about it. It certainly makes the healing mage's job easier after that run gone bad.

The only other option seems to be taking the Aptitude (First Aid) quality to let me raise the skill to 7...and then 3 levels of Imp Ability (First Aid) to completely max it to rating 10.

Btw: the inversion of Mind over Matter (something like "Body defines Mind") might be much more interesting or what do you think about a Troll who substitutes his charisma 1 with his strength 9?

Or more like the Troll with augmented Strength 15. That troll wouldn't need any social skills; his defaults would be legendary.

Agility is used to determine how many rounds you can load into a magazine in a single action. Very useful for semi-auto shotguns.

Presumably that's why there *is* no 'Body over Mind'. That, and it's nonsensical.

I know.

Hilarious, though. Can you imagine a that troll flexing hard in order to solve a riddle?

No, but I can imagine Major Armstrong doing that... using a technique that has been passed down the Armstrong line for generations...

Posing during Negotiations

That's about as silly as the elf making his enemies run into his line of fire by looking good (CHA->AGI). Hey it's magic.

Charisma replaces strenght not agility, agility can be replaced with logic.

Which actually kind of makes sense, in a "my brain is a built-in tactical computer and smartlink" sort of way.

Figuring out firing lines, estimating bullet drop, hypothesizing about enemy movements, instantly calculating ballistics information, etc, etc, etc. For a decent visual representation of it on tv, just check out the super-genius kid playing quarterback for the first time, on No Ordinary Family. He sees all the angles (literally) and just knows how to throw the ball to the exact right spot.

That's from talking without having the book. I thought you could substitute any Physical Attribute with any Mental Attribute.

Nope, it uses the same substitutions that are used for astral and only for tests.
Thats why i said the only really useful use for the power is a logic tradition combat mys-ad.

So you're saying a social adept wouldn't be greatly benefited by having the strength (of personality, of course) to get out of the fan's reach, when proverbial feces hits it?

I definedly don't think getting to use your charisma instead of strenght for running, swimming and climbing is worth 1,5 power points.

it is, if it's the core of your concept. A parcour/face Adept.

Don't forget, you can squeeze out some more points with the Cognition Metamagic

Sounds like it could be fun.

More than 1-2 points make for debilitating drain though.

I'd much rather have the Agility/Logic one, I think.

Let's see. The social adept I'm playing now is running with 9 Charisma.
1.5 Magic, for the benefit of having 9 strength, for all purposes but combat and carrying related.
Of course I can see the argument of the combat bit being important for strength. But his frail Bod would really rather keep out of harm's way to begin with.
And carrying gear? *shrug* shouldn't be too much of a problem with a normal Strength of 2+.
Way I see it, it's saving me right about 55 BP, assuming the question of whether raising my Str that high would be even possible is answered with an unlikely positive.

Buying it with karma from a high Magic to begin with is a different story though.

Hm ... some roles I can think of:

Charisma -> Strength: athlete with a lot of advertising contracts, plus a movie career later in life.
Intuition -> Reaction: River Tam.
Logic -> Agility: Guy Richie's version of Sherlock Holmes.
Willpower -> Body: Ellen Ripley

I haven't seen the Sherlock Holmes movie but River Tam would fit LG->AGI as well, except for driving REA isn't used much actively. And the blind shooting was quite active.
Or John McLane

Well the think is that the test that strength is used in aren't really that important(at least most of the time), if the power allowed substitution for all purposes and not just tests, then i would definedly be on board with getting it for pornomancer. Compined with soft-weave armor it would allow the creation of tank face(Charisma 12 body 3 character could wear 18 points of armor)

Replacing the attribute for tests only is still a hell of a power. We've got a pixie mystic adept in our group with Body 1 and Willpower 8. 1.5 power points gets him +7 to damage resistance, toxin resistance, etc. +7 to heal stun damage, and plus +14 to heal physical damage, plus a few other odd tests. That's a hell of a return. It's this kind of edge case that makes me think the power might be a little much, though usually its easier to boost physical stats than mental stats so I don't object automatically.

That's a pretty optimal case, though, and that's still a lot of PP for that. I'd rather have the Agility anyway, but Pixies are so overpowered there already…

Agreed. It seems to be only good in situations where you can get a net gain of 1.66 hits. This is why Log-Agi is good since you can augment logic past the natural max. Additionally, you could get away with a metatype that has a nicely sized boost on the mental attribute. This is also why I may be going out on a limb here and saying that the Cha->Str one is just as crappy as Int->Rea or Wil->Bod. I'd have to see the exact text of the power to know for sure, but I unsure if Tailored Pheromones would contribute. If it's still considered a strength check, but you just get to use your Charisma attribute..... well it's not a charisma or social test so you don't get the pheromones' bonus.

It's only good for logic yeah. It was clearly written by someone who didn't have a great grasp on the rules - it's total failure (as written) for the other stats. Except maybe strength which sucks anyway.. but then why would you use it?

On the flip side, agility is used in a lot of skills, and logic is really easy to crank. The character outlined above (with logic at soft max), seems really good.



The 7P critical strike adept isn't very good. Two monowhips, one with the with the break into parts weapon upgrade do 95% of the same job for less than 2 BP, which is cheaper than the quality. You might not even need two depending on how you think the weapon concealment system works.

I'm not sure what you are trying to do with two monowhips, but in case you want to dual-wield them, you can't. Monowhips are reach 2 and only weapons with reach 1 or less may be dual-wielded.

No, you need them for different situations.

Punching adepts bring to the table precisely two things - they are always armed, and their weapon is highly concealable.

So the advantage the punching adept has is that any time he can bust out punching people in the face with no notice. For a monowhip character to duplicate that you need a regulation one that you carry around in your pants most of the time, and one with concealment mods that you can smuggle through checkpoints and reassemble in the toilets.

So by taking the right monowhip for the task (you can think of them as your working monowhip, and your strutting monowhip or whatever) you can clone most of the functionality. The exception is if you need to throw down melee action after you get through the security checkpoint(s) but before you can go to the toilet.

On the other hand, if you read the concealment rules as being an opposed check vs the sensors, you really only need one.

My pants is the absolute last place I want to be carrying a device capable of shearing through flesh with little to no resistance.

Just saying.

But yet you fail to worry about carrying that can punch a metal object through flesh, bone and steel at high velocity in your pants!

My observation is that Shadowrunners have something ludicrously dangerous in their pants, in the back of their car, and in their bedroom as a matter of course

Well yes, but that particular device comes with a safety and doesn't require an exotic weapon specialization to use.

And the guns don't either.

HEY-O

On a more serious note, I have every reason to suspect that the spooling device for a mono whip is just as safe as a Glock-17, in that I personally wouldn't put either one in my pants, but I can see why you would.

I think the monowhip has (or should have) is that psychological edge that tells folks "Imma cut you."