Do Battle Rifles use the Automatics skill, the Longarms skill, or the Heavy Weapons skill?

Long arms, the enforcer is essentially a battle rifle. In fact when other rifles get negative modifiers for closer range battles in our games we don't apply it to enforcers and one other rifle in the core book though I can't remember which.

AS they ae up-scaled assault rifles, i would say Automatics.

Exotic Firearms (Battle Rifles).

In my group when you fire any rifle (AR, BR, SN) in SA mode the player has the option of using the Longarms Skill. If you are firing in BF or FA you need to use Automatics.

Have you ever fired a battle rifle? That makes no sense to make it exotic.

I like methods idea since BRs are like the median between assault rifles and sniper rifles.

I think hermit was being facetious.

Ofcource he was, but he is technically right, as it's not mentioned what skill they use, an exotic weapon skill for them is the most RAW option.

As well as the most balanced..

I like the idea that the skill required is determined by the firing mode.

That makes me happy

Balanced?

-- I assume the intent, based on how the entry is phrased in War!, p. 154, is that you use the Automatics skill.

As has been said, by RAW Exotic (Battle Rifles) is the way to go. Since I live in a country where it would be rather hard to get one of these, let alone fire it, I have no experience with these rifles. I was just going by RAW. No offense meant.

I guess automatics is okay too, since it seems that Battle Rifle is basically descriptive of something like an assault rifle with more stopping power. I'll earmark this for an Errata.

Does that make it half-baked?

No offense taken, I was just saying it's not a very exotic weapon. It fires like a hunting rifle. Heck, it essentially is a hunting rifle. Take one of those and make it SA and you have a BR.

No! NO! We are not having another pun thread Pbangarth!

I agree with the firing mode should determine if automatic or longarm. Single shots would use longarms and BF and FA require automatics. That is not canon, but seems to be the best compromise I have heard for the differences between the two skills.

As for exotics if the trajectory, use or handling drastically differs from a conventional weapon then I would agree with exotic. A battle rifle is the same as a sniper, assault or hunting rifle in the way it is fired or operated. Making it exotic would be like having shotguns require pump, semiautomatic and lever action as different skills. I hardly view flipping a switch between firing modes as requiring a new skill.

Actually, there is no such thing as a Battle Rifle. This term is not an official term or military designation. And it is more than strange to group fully-automatic personal rifles together with bolt-action ones, and to group other automatic rifles in another category just because of caliber (or even muzzle velocity in the case of the AK-47

I've seen the term Battle Rifle used only in American firearms circles, and in US magazines and publications (i.e. not in the wider English-speaking world), to refer to weapons such as the FN FAL, G3 and M14, i.e. weapons that have most of the characteristics of assault rifles except for the fact they use a more-powerful cartridges (7.62x51mm and up) and so as a result are longer, heavier and have more recoil than most assault rifles.

So it should be Automatics or Longarms, depending on the firing mode. And as I fired more than 5000 round with a H&K G3 myself, this compromise seems somehow accurate.

There is such a thing as a battle rifle here. An example being the M14 EBR (Enhanced Battle Rifle.) Wouldn't carbines be another example of pointless separation?

That house rule came out of extensive discussions amongst my group, which is made up of avid gun collectors and shooting enthusiasts.

First off, none of the "Battle Rifles" in War are full automatic capable. They all fire burst, much as most of the rifles and carbines used by the US military today do. All of their game stats are the same as Sport Rifles (with the BF mod and using clips) which is exactly what we call "Battle Rifles". Hunting/Sporting Rifles modified for burst first and with "Soldier Proofing" to survive being used to bash someones head in. The BAR is not a Battle Rifle, but a MMG using clips (Magazines, damn SR funky terms) instead of being belt fed.

From real life experience (hunting and military), my first thoughts were to use the Long Arms skill. I actually brought up the question really early in the War! thread.

I have to imagine the assault rifle vs battle rifle distinction didn't really occur until they started fielding the 5.56 ammunition and equivalent. The theory being that smaller rounds were more suited for the shorter ranges soldiers were fighting at, with the additional benefit of being lighter so a soldier could carry more. The idea that a smaller round would cause wounds more often instead of straight up kills, and tie up additional enemy resources trying to extract the wounded soldier, was also likely considered.

Prior to that, most "assault rifles" were of the larger calibers.




-k

I gotta wonder where these 30 and 60 round clips are coming from for these .308 rifles.

That is massive.

Hell, just a 40-round mag is ridiculously large.

Drum-style mags seem more manageable, though. Beta Company apparently makes them up to 100 round capacity.

That reminds me... I wonder if it's too much to hope for to see drum mags in the MilTech PDF.



-k

To me, it depends on what they're more like. If they have the recoil, range, etc. of a Longarm, then go ahead and use that. It's certainly true that the existing categories are a poor fit, but what can you do?

We do have drum mags in SR4 already, and they even go up to 100-rounds. It's just that both them and regular extended clips/magazines require a modification to use, as opposed to simply just paying considerably more for spares.

And to just throw my two cents into the original topic; I personally just let Battle Rifles use either skill at the players choice. That way dedicated snipers who couldn't yet get the Automatics skill can share in the love. My half-assed drawback to this is that there is no 'Battle Rifles' specialization.

The most RAW option would be Exotic Ranged Weapon (<Insert Weapon Name Here>). Exotic Weapon (Battle Rifles) is not a valid choice.

Which is my interpretation of the rules (based on repeated readthroughs but only playing once).

Oh, so sorry i didn't see a need to differentiate between exotic ranged weapon and exotic melee weapon, that might be because it's a pointless distinction that is pretty much just a waste of space in the skill section.

Even the older 7.62 ARs used much smaller ammo compared to the slower firing general use rifles they were replacing. Compare the Russian Mozin Nagant 7.62x54 vs the AK 7.62x39. Since the older rifles had longer ranges and were generally more accurate they were still used in specialty roles (like sniper) along side the ARs. I always assumed the term battle rifle was coined to distinguish between the two weapon types back in the '40s.

Them older battle rifles were just military versions or sport rifles, even down to being bolt action in thier originial incarnations. Even today larger clips and burst fire capability are pretty much what you would do to a sport rifle to make it more usefull in combat.

So it's - basically - a cool name for military grade rifles.

Well, assault rifles are considered "military grade" too.

It's just a step in-between "rifleman" and "machinegunner". Basically, prior to and during WW2 most rifles were in the 7.62 range, big and heavy, capable of shooting long distances. During WW2 the military noticed that most firefights were considerably shorter range, and there was a real issue of limited ammo being carried by troops due to weight.

So smaller rifles were developed and adopted by many militaries. The 5.56 firing M16 is probably the most famous example. I tend to class the 7.62x39 ammo here because it really is a considerably smaller round than it's predecessors. (it's the same diameter as the older rounds, but shorter and with a smaller cartridge.)

More recently, improvements in tactics and gear have started making these smaller rifles a little less effective. So you're seeing some of the larger rifle styles being brought back into service, because they have better range and penetration. Usually these are issued to a limited number of troops, maybe a couple of guys in a squad.

Really, "Battle Rifle" is not an official military term. It's just used informally just to distinguish between the two caliber ranges. Much like "long sword" was never a real class of sword in medieval times, but it's convenient to use the term to describe that type of sword today.



-k

My two cents.

I'm going to house rule Battle Rifles as Long Arms. The reason being, as mention by someone else earlier, they are use sport rifle ranges and have the same basic (i.e. no special ammo) damage as sport rifles. Not only that,but the Automatics Skill already has Machine Pistols, Sub-machine Guns, and assault rifles. But the the Long Arms skill only has Sniper Rifles (good of course, but highly illegal, they all F availability aren't they), sport rifles (who's only selling point is you can get a license) and shotguns (who doesn't love shotguns. but the range is an issue). I think the Long Arms skill is a little to niche specific most of the time. Adding Battle Rifles would broaden the Skills usage.

P.S.: The idea of firing mode defining the skill used to make attacks is neat. but I don't think my players would like the extra complication.

I'm being lazy and not searching for it, but I'd like to point out that I remember at least a couple topics over the last year or two that discussed, in great detail, the issues surrounding the division of the firearms skills in SR4. House Rules were proposed in profusion. I, personally, do not like the Longarms v.s. Automatics distinction because it lumps together Assault Rifles with small SMGs, but excludes weapons that are very similar to Assault Rifles but for their rate of fire modes. Battle Rifles just add to the problem.

I think the skill divisions should be made on the basis of asking the question, "If you were trained on a M16, which other weapons would be easiest for you to pick up and use with nearly the same level of proficiency?" There would be some subjectivity in answering that question, but I think that if one were to put the answers in graphical form, you could draw circles around sufficiently similar weapons. With only a single enlistment in the U.S. Army I don't think I'm qualified to answer that question fully, but someone should be able to.

Well I would add that its not just about how many rounds the weapon fires in different firing modes. There is a significant tactical difference between BF and SA. You use the different modes in different ways to achieve different goals at different ranges, etc. To us (all avid shooters) the use of a related but slightly different skill makes perfect sense.

Which is why I favor broader skill categories with "Familiarities" rather than "Specializations." With Familiarities referring to specific weapons and a penalty applied when not using that specific weapon. This system would have Familiarities even cheaper than Specializations are now, like 1 Karma and a few hours practice. That way there wouldn't be much barrier to adopting a new type of weapon for regular use but you'd have a smallish penalty if you picked up and used an unfamiliar weapon on the fly during a mission. I think this would alleviate the disparity between gun bunnies and other character types in regard to how many skills they need to have.

And I'm sure that I'm unintentionally re-hashing points from those previous discussions. Ah well.

Not to mention the alternative is functionally to force a brilliant, top-of-his-game marksman with an M-16 to be totally clueless the very instant he picks up, say, an SKS... unless some enterprising fellow has added a fire selection switch to the SKS, at which point he mystically returns to being a top-notch marksman, regardless of what firing mode he's actually using.

Sorry Semerkhet, I was posting that the same time you were. It wasn't a direct response to your comment necessarily.

That's not the distinction that I was pointing out. Exotic Weapon, regardless of melee or ranged, is taken on a weapon by weapon basis. Exotic Weapon cannot, by RAW, apply to an entire class of weapons.

Eyes it can, flamers are used with Exotic Ranged Weapon: Flamethrower skill and laser weapons are used with Exotic Ranged Weapon: Laser Weapons skill

Sorry, pg. 122 SR4A

Exotic Ranged Weapons includes Cyber-implant guns and Lasers. Both, are classes of weapons.

Cyber implant includes all pistols, shotgun and even grenade launchers.
Lasers because of the Redline, MP3, Heavy MP and Firelance.

<EDIT>

I guess you were quicker than I Max.

Well at least you added Exotic Ranged Weapon: cyber-implant guns that i completely forgot and while where on that subject there's also Exotic Melee Weapon: cyber-implant weapons in unusual locations

Exotic weapon skills are always taken for classes of weapons, some of those classes are just so specifig that there are only a single weapon of that class in the books

Is there any downside to getting the Firing Selection Change on a battle rifle to make it full auto? 1 mod slot and 300 nuyen seems like a good price to me.
Would it be better to use the full auto battle rifle or an assault rifle?

A full auto battle rifle stat wise is hard to figure out because of the way shadowrun does damage but it would most likely either 7P - 1 AP or 6P -2 AP. Either way a fully auto version would have higher stats then an assault rifle but the recoil should be treated like a heavy weapon where all uncompensated recoil is doubled.

You do realize that Battle Rifles already have official Stats, Right?

Seriously? Since when? All I see are hunting rifles, sniper rifles, and assault rifles.

Since War!

Their in WAR, have you even read this topic your posting to?
The existance of official battle rifles is alluded in more then one post and WAR is mentioned in some of them.

I saw one post mentioning WAR!, I didn't know they actually stated it out. All the post says is that they were mentioned.

The way I figure it, Battle Rifles seem to do 1 more DV than assault rifles, and have the same AP. If given full auto capability, then they are strictly better than assault rifles. The clip sizes are comparable, and the only other difference is that battle rifles are a bit more expensive, by a few thousand nuyen, it seems. The trade-off seems worth it to me.

If you did mod a battle rifle to full auto, I think you should use Automatics, not Longarms, for firing it.

You missed the fact that Battle Rifles use the Sport Rifles ranges instead of the Assault Rifles ranges. That makes them a compounding 50m more range then Assault Rifles per range band (+50, +100, +150, +200). Not insanely different, but it fills the role of Marksman rifle very well. That is the current role that the military uses this weapons in.