Okay...maybe someone who's more well-read in Shadowrun than I am can clarify this for me. I seem to remember the SR2 and SR3 rulebooks mentioning that elves can live much longer than humans, but not mentioning just how much. Anywhere they clarify?
Also - what's with immortal elves in Shadowrun? I seem to remember reading one novel (Worlds without End, I think it was called) in which immortal elves with ties to Earthdawn (Third or Fourth Age, whatever it is) basically ran the world, along with dragons. Is this canon, or just the novelist's whim? I remember some modules featuring Harlequin, but never bought or played them.
Full Version: Elves, Mortal and Immortal
Too much... 500 years expected age of Elves, clarified in Tir Tairngire. Immortal elves are canon...
Look around here for awhile
Specifically, here.
Look around here for awhile
Specifically, here.
Ugh, both of those answers make me sad. 
But thanks for providing them, and the links.
500 years is ridiculous. Maybe for special spike baby elves, or something. But for your average elf working as a clerk at Nukit Burger? Senseless. Mayhap a house rule is in order for my games...
It bothers me a lot that immortal elves and dragons basically run the damn world, for various and sundry reasons - such as the fact that it makes the rest of metahumanity kinda marginal. Anyone else feel this way? Or perhaps disagree?
But thanks for providing them, and the links. 500 years is ridiculous. Maybe for special spike baby elves, or something. But for your average elf working as a clerk at Nukit Burger? Senseless. Mayhap a house rule is in order for my games...
It bothers me a lot that immortal elves and dragons basically run the damn world, for various and sundry reasons - such as the fact that it makes the rest of metahumanity kinda marginal. Anyone else feel this way? Or perhaps disagree?
Immortal elves don't rule the world with dragons, they do each rule some little parts of it though.
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| But for your average elf working as a clerk at Nukit Burger? Senseless. |
Wouldn't that just suck? I imagine elves will have a high rate of suicide at around a hundred. And not every elf knows or believes it.
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| It bothers me a lot that immortal elves and dragons basically run the damn world, for various and sundry reasons - such as the fact that it makes the rest of metahumanity kinda marginal. |
Even if you eliminated all the IE's and Dragons, the corps would just take the same place (they do already). Metahumanity has been reduced to consumers... pretty much what we call civilization. There are more humans in places of than immortals, by head count. But even they are the few elite that rule the huddled masses. Welcome to the Sixth World, same as the Third World.
Yeah, true for the most part. The suicide rate thing makes sense, too. Though it seems as though the designers made the decision to gives normal elves those 500-year life spans without giving much thought to the logistics of it all...
check out Ancient History's site. it's got some basic info on that subject and others related.
You mean that elves can only have babies every nine years? Or something else? The elf grows at normal rate until 25 when aging slows and "stops" around 30.
[edit]@MFB
[edit]@MFB
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| You mean that elves can only have babies every nine years? Or something else? The elf grows at normal rate until 25 when aging slows and "stops" around 30. |
That'd be part of it. Does it mention the Tirs practicing any kind of state-run euthanasia on old or unfit elves? Are there old/unfit elves, since aging "stops" at 30? Hrmm...
Or perhaps a legal limit on how often folks can procreate? They'd have a serious population problem on their hands after a century or so without some sort of control.
well, there are certainly unfit elves--they don't have genes for perfect health, just long life. but, no, all (non-spike baby) elves in SR are, max, 54 years old.
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| Or perhaps a legal limit on how often folks can procreate? They'd have a serious population problem on their hands after a century or so without some sort of control. |
Not yet and yes they do. Tir seriously promotes homoracial relations and elven females are limited in ovary numbers just like all mammals. While not mentioned, I think that will limit birth rates, in a way. But for now they want people. Tir is seriously under populated compared to, say, France. Sure, you might worry about the population a century from now, but they only make up ~5% of the world population at the moment.
Orks breed in litters of 4 or more every nine months. Tir is much more worried about keeping Ork infant mortality high than Elven.
I think IE's are like any other plot device, a tool in the tool box to be used when it suits you. I think there are intresting and subtle ways to use them at the peripherals of a game-I prefer not to use them directly.
Also as an aside after a hundred years if you're still flippin' soy at Nukit, then Suicide is probably a favor.
Also as an aside after a hundred years if you're still flippin' soy at Nukit, then Suicide is probably a favor.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Welcome to the Sixth World, same as the Third World. |
| QUOTE (Limping Jacob) |
| Ugh, both of those answers make me sad. But thanks for providing them, and the links. 500 years is ridiculous. Maybe for special spike baby elves, or something. But for your average elf working as a clerk at Nukit Burger? Senseless. Mayhap a house rule is in order for my games... |
Think of it this way: it's not a far future thing to suppose that once...
a) genetic therapy works fairly well on humans
b) genes controlling the aging mechanism are IDd
...that every person, from burger flippers to ditch diggers to CEOs will have 500-year lifespans.
Such immortality might not fit in SR, but I don't see why you should begrudge burger flipping elves their long lives. I mean, it's one thing to note that low lifestyles tend to influence life spans (and you know all those fake butter fumes and deep frier explosions will cull a lot of minimum wage elves), but another to imply that because they're not high class elves, they should not have long lives.
As for IEs and Dragons controlling the world, it's more like they're in positions of influence, and they're subject to attrition and mortal competition.
"I was flipping burgers when your Father's Father's Father's Father's Father was in daipers!"
"Tod's Tir - Exclusive Elven-only Trailer-Park"
Dammn NEEDs...
"Tod's Tir - Exclusive Elven-only Trailer-Park"
Dammn NEEDs...
Most non-Spike Baby elves will live about 400 years, barring accident, violence or disease (which they are all susceptible to). It's a rare elf that lives for 500 years or more.
Anyways, being an elf sucks. Pregnancy lasts something like 360 days with an increased chance for twins. Who wants to be pregnant for an entire year?
Anyways, being an elf sucks. Pregnancy lasts something like 360 days with an increased chance for twins. Who wants to be pregnant for an entire year?
[ Spoiler ]
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
[ Spoiler ] |
Spoiling the spoiler...
Vegetarianism isn't necessarily good enough. Some plants are very fatty, and even "good" fats add up after a while. I'd expect all but the healthiest folks to have heart troubles after 150-200 years if they had arterial plaque build up like humans.
But What Can Mutant Italians Teach Us?
Any mammal that has a long life is going to have long-term "maintenance" traits like that, and IEs will need something to cover brain cell loss and accumulating liver damage. I bet those IEs just kept chugging their fine elvish wine over the centuries - that'll add up, too.
| QUOTE (Cray74 @ Mar 17 2004, 11:05 AM) |
| and IEs will need something to cover brain cell loss and accumulating liver damage. I bet those IEs just kept chugging their fine elvish wine over the centuries - that'll add up, too. |
Hmmm... maybe their immunity to alcahol, pathogens, and the common effects of aging comes into play here.
Based on some non-rules text, the IE immunity to alcahol is optional and immediately removes all effects. This allows them to get smashed and then be sober in a few moments when they see the need.
When you throw in that they are easier to heal than regular elves and most have had the time to learn a whole lot of magic, their maintenance could be entirely self-managed.
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| When you throw in that they are easier to heal than regular elves and most have had the time to learn a whole lot of magic |
A whole lot of magic in the sense that the ocean has some water in it....
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| Based on some non-rules text, the IE immunity to alcahol is optional and immediately removes all effects. This allows them to get smashed and then be sober in a few moments when they see the need. |
Could easily be a spell effect. They're powerful enough and experienced enough to mask it completely to mundanes (read: mere mortals, rather than non-magic folk) and not be noticed casting it. They might do this merely to preserve their mystique, making it look like they can just shrug off the effects.
Just a theory.
I was referring to Harlequin when he was in a troubling discussion with an even more magically significant individual (it includes the second time that Harlequin completely failed to banish this individual). I don't think that instance was just to show off to the mortals.
fair enough, haven't read that one.
SR novels are really hard to get hold of in the shops, and I don't fancy paying postage on them from the states!
If its in Harlequin, we're playing it at the moment, so I haven't read it.
SR novels are really hard to get hold of in the shops, and I don't fancy paying postage on them from the states!
If its in Harlequin, we're playing it at the moment, so I haven't read it.
| QUOTE (spotlite) |
| SR novels are really hard to get hold of in the shops, and I don't fancy paying postage on them from the states! |
Tell me about it! Shadowrun in general seems to be an underground thing. I mean, I did not even know 3rd ed was being reprinted until I checked the SR website. And I run a roleplay shop! Our supplier does have Shadowrun but it is not on the 'official' lists, so I didn't realise they had any until last week. (though they still have some of the OLD stuff, under the counter, if you know the secret handshake...)
The scene in question is the opening fluff to Harlequin's Back.
Personally, I don't think 500 years is all that extreme as far as Elven life spans are concerned. Tolkien's were immortal for all intense purposes, and in D&D your average High Elf has an average life span of about 1,500 years. Makes Shadowrun Elves look down right short lived compared to them.
The age limit has increased since 2050, there may well be a conspiracy to limit the information of actual life-span from getting out to everyone else who will not live that long. Until the elves actually live that long it is only theoretical conjecture from the scientific community anyway. And as far as the immortal elves go they have slept a lot to get through the down-cycle of little or no magic. Some sort of suspended animation thing or the other. Incidently since the elven ability of immunity to age and disease is tied to their essence, lots of cyberware will seriously impinge upon an elven samurai's life span. Not that we runners expect to live that long in any event. As an aside, Tolkien Silvan elves in an environment with sindar or Noldar frequently work in menial positions for long times, they where happy to do so. Some people just have that mentality and are happy, flippin burgers or mopping floors, most aren't but some
If I out in 10 years at my company I get 5 weeks of vacation a year. What would an elf with 100 years of service get?
Other the that, why does it matter if elves live that long? I fihure a lot more people would be mad that Orks don't live as long as weakling humnas. I have yet in any game had to worry about the age of one of my characters. One of my SR characters (a human, I very rarley play anthing else in SR other then straight humans) has been around for 14 RL years about 15 game years, pushing 40, but long since retired from doing actual runs, I don't think by time he is old enough to worry about getting old, I will have shuffled off this mortal coil. In D&D I play Elves almost exclusively, I just like the woodland theme, and they too have never had to worry about age, except the time one was hit by a ghost and aged 40 years. Now he is the whopping 170. Other then that character age has never come into play in our games.
Other the that, why does it matter if elves live that long? I fihure a lot more people would be mad that Orks don't live as long as weakling humnas. I have yet in any game had to worry about the age of one of my characters. One of my SR characters (a human, I very rarley play anthing else in SR other then straight humans) has been around for 14 RL years about 15 game years, pushing 40, but long since retired from doing actual runs, I don't think by time he is old enough to worry about getting old, I will have shuffled off this mortal coil. In D&D I play Elves almost exclusively, I just like the woodland theme, and they too have never had to worry about age, except the time one was hit by a ghost and aged 40 years. Now he is the whopping 170. Other then that character age has never come into play in our games.
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| And as far as the immortal elves go they have slept a lot to get through the down-cycle of little or no magic. Some sort of suspended animation thing or the other. |
That's false. Dragons had to sleep during the downcycle, elves do not. Many immortal elves were active during the downcycle, Harlequin, Aina, Ehran, and Leonardo to name a few.
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| Incidently since the elven ability of immunity to age and disease is tied to their essence, lots of cyberware will seriously impinge upon an elven samurai's life span. |
I have never seen anything canon to that effect. Can you provide a page number or reference perhaps? Immunity to age has no mechanics related to essence whatsoever that I have ever seen. Besides, normal elves have neither of those powers.
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