I have a character that has a str of 15. Does that mean im still only going to get a max 12p on my damage???

Yep, that's generally what "max strength bonus" means.

Yeah. The damage cap was put in pretty much as a response to the Uber Troll Bow Of Massive Death possible in previous editions.




-k

Your bow has the damage of an assault rifle with long burst fire and you say "only"? Have you ever thought of alternatively carrying around a ballista?

Why use a bow?

Its actually better than that when comparing it to hardened armour: a lot better. That bow kills spirits like a knife though butter

If that troll used a pre-A bow, he would be taking out a tank rather then a car...

Get War.
Get Military Grade Software that lets you fire two arrows that hit the target simultanously for 24P Damage.
BAMAGE.

!I missed that, page reference please '-)

He's kidding. At least, what he said was a joke, anyway.

WAR! has a piece of MRSI(Multiple Rounds Simoultanous Impact) Software.
It does exactly what it says on the Label. Works in RL with Artillery.
In Shadowrun it works with Artillery and Grenade Launchers.
And it specifically mentions, that it works with Bow and Arrow too.

If your GM doesn't beat you about the head with a book for even trying it with a bow.

It works with *a* bow and arrow? Or two people firing together? Because the former is preposterous, and it's what you suggested a character do.

Seeing how this is meant for single person operations:
it works with one bow and 2 arrows.
and why should it not?
a good bowyer can shoot up one arrow and shoot the first arrow out of the sky with a second arrow.

And it's WAY less bad than using it with a full auto grenade launcher for doing more damage than a cruise missle.

Why is it preposterous? You fire the first arrow at a high angle, and the second at a low angle, and due to the differences in flight time they strike simultaneously. Not sure I'd treat it as a single 24P attack, though.

I understand the theory. I just don't believe it could possibly be done, 'good bowyer' or not. Might as well let someone do it with a pistol: shoot first at a high angle, and then at a low angle?

Well, you have to be able to shoot in a ballistic arc.
that's why it says artillery, grenade launchers and bows.

I mean, a bullet, a shell, a grenade, an arrow… *shrug*. Same thing.

This time on target stuff is supposed to be for combining attacks from different sources.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WghCzSKySxA
The Crusader would like to have words with you.
It DOES work with several crusaders too, but it works just as well with a single unit.

And that's an outlier, impressive specifically because it breaks the norm. I think I said 'supposed'. Now show me the youtube video of a 'good bowyer'?

I'm just saying, hitting someone with 2 arrows within the Crusader's limit of 'within 2 seconds of each other' hardly constitutes a 24P single attack in Shadowrun. Yes?

Byron Ferguson < = For example.
And i know that bowyer was the wrong term.
You need a Bow with smartlink and a comlink capable of running the software and then you need to obtain said specially secret super military software too . .
But the rules explicitly say IT WORKS. And this is a TECH-Aspect. If you can deal with a TROLL shooting a Bow, then you can deal with a TROLL shooting TWO ARROWS using Artillery Software.

In fairness, it's just WAR! specifically says it works, whatever that's worth.

I simply don't see how two arrows striking different locations at different times counts as 24P for the purposes of damage resistance, armor, etc. Surely you can see that? Multiple explosions, yes, especially given the crazy SR4 explosion rules.

Explosive arrows? … Yes.

Anyway, it has nothing to do with trolls. It's not a belief, or 'magic'. Tech has much higher standards than magic, after all.

Sounds doable to me. Although, I guess I just can't see what good it does. If you can fire at a target twice, why not just shoot it twice? I guess if you use edge it could really be uber though.

Also, don't bows essentially fire one arrow only per turn? (Barring the krav maga work around). Because a SA firing bow would be beautiful

It's to abuse the armor and damage resistance rules, especially against things like spirits.

Only in the movies. I have several friends who are master bowyers and they laughed when I showed them this

In Agincourt the incredible rate of fire of the english long bowmen was a winning factor. They fired to0 fast to aim, but it didn't matter: the sheer volume of fire mattered and there were a lot of targets.

So how fast did these well trained from infancy elite troops fire? Answer 8 shots a minute. ABout 1 shot every 2 and half combat rounds in shadowrun.
Even with cyberware and increased reflexes and stuff, I struggle from a realism point of view with even a shot per round. But thats ok its a game
Moving to a shot per complex action is moving so far into fantasy that I think we say "its a game don't worry about it" (and we laugh at the idea of aimed shots)
Moving to more than one shot per complex action...well you can guess from the above what I would like to say, but I will be polite

Forget the bow and use a bigger version of this crossbow!

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w...le:Ballista.jpg

At that point, Im reminded of Sgt.Detritus. Go ahead and name it the Piecemaker and be sure to have 'When Mr.Safety Catch is not on Mr.Siege Crossbow is not our friend' stenciled somewhere.

Mechanically, yeah firing that kind of rapid fire from a bow and arrow is more than a little ridiculous. Though considering the chinese managed to come up with an automatic crossbow, I dont see why you couldnt end up with a tech version. Ammo feed would be a pain in the ass though.

Not just the chinese, ol' da Vinci had plans for such a "monster" (mostly a multi-shot bow, but with a reloader on hand i guess one could get it to fire "continuously").

You can if you leant Krav Maga(Arsenal, p. 157).
You have a readied arrow, and shoot it(a Simple Action), ready second arrow(a Free Action) and shoot it(a Simple Action).
So you will have two shots in same Action Phase.

Edit: the limitation is same Combat Turn(not Action Phase). So without Krav Maga, anyone with 2+ IP(by augmentation or bought with Edge) can do it.

the really stupid thing about MRSI is, that it does not work with the wepons, for that it was created in RL. Howitzer and Heavy Motars cannot use MRSI because they dont fire 2 shots in one CR. So by RAW it only works with the redicoulos weapons like Bows an Grenate Launchers and not with the weapons it is intended for.

cya
Tycho

What, no SA Artillery? O.o

With a tacnet, can you synchronise shoots from multiple interlinked MRSI equiped weapons, thus bypassing the CR problem ?

No,MRSI works only when you can Fire both Arrows in the same Round !
An Adept with Quickdraw f.E. might be a good Idea
I personally don't like Krav Maga for Bows because that Martial Arts is for Pistols or SMGs (Maybe) but i won't be practised with Bows.
This kind of "Exploiting the Rules" leads to gluing a Monowhip to your Feet to get a Reach 3 Weapon

with an exploitation Dance
Medicineman

bows have no problem, if you have 2 or more IPs (other methode Quicktraw, Krav Maga works as well).

but the heavy motar and the howitzer both state, that they can only fire 1shot every Round, so no MRSI usage possible...

cya
Tycho

It seems that 12P is not the highest damage a bow gets...



Strength rating is the first element in the "(STR Min +2)P" equation. This can go from 1 to 12 (see below).

Then we have the following :



Bow's rating with maximum Strength rating = 12
Maximum damage = 12*1.5 = 18

A character with 12 STR does 12+2 = 14P damage

If you take explosive arrowheads, this becomes 15P. Add net hits, and you get up to 18P in total.

you dont have the right book....

in the final SR4A version Min STR is limited to 8.

cya
Tycho

hmm missed that one. That sounds like a sophisticated Time On Target Attack Assist Software

Basically, it is something that a smartlink should have been capable since SR1 . .
It's more or less simple mathmatics

That is exactly right, it is sophisticated Time on Target Attack Assist Software.

Oh, and bows in SR4A are limited to a max strength of 8.

How do you access that version ? My version shows 12, not 8. How come there is no errata ? I'm surprised to say the least.

Can anybody explain why bows are better on hardened armour? I mean better than a normal weapon dealing the same DV?

@Quake:

You must have the beta pdf of the SR4A Book, because there it was 12 but they changed it in the final pdf and the print, irrc.

cya
Tycho

The reason why is that for most firearms, a major source of damage is firing Burst Fire or Full Auto mode. This can increase your damage by +2 to +9. However, this bonus damage doesn't help to pierce hardened armor. So while a bow doing 12P damage pierces hardened armor 11 or below, an AK-97 firing a long burst doing 12P -1AP can only pierce hardened armor 7 or below. This is because 5 of the AK-97's damage is from the long burst which doesn't factor into getting though hardened armor.

Edit- Fixed grammar

Thanks! I knew I was missing something

Battleships have done so for decades without any computer (in the modern meaning) at all. They fired up to 4 main turrets (with 2 or 3 barrels each) simultaneously at the same target. Sure, they hit more of an area than a single spot but it was sufficiently accurate to hit a ship with several grenades of a full broadside once they got the range. They could even unite the fire of multiple ships.

Should be no problem in SR.

Yeah, "Time on Target" used to mean some guys bent over charts calculating firing solutions very quickly. With slide rules.

I find it hard to believe Smartlinks are incapable of this all by themselves.

I could understand if they'd written it from the out-of-game perspective of "Most Shadowrunners don't need these tactics in their day to day lives, but here's some new rules if you want to feature this in your games". But making it actual "new technology" is a little silly.






-k

Well, the problem is the way armor works. Regardless of the intent here, this *shouldn't* be any more effective against armor, damage resistance, ItnW, etc., and it almost certainly *should* apply the multiple attacks defender penalty. I'd let it all stack for Knockdown, though.

Hey. Slide rules are awesome.
*Has one, not that he uses it*

Even I've retired mine. And I did use it.