Okay, a question for all you GMs out there. I have been involved in RP for years and years, and once I got out of my adolescence, I've run into tons of players who metagame like crazy. They min max and they know things that their characters wouldn't and the list goes on and on.

But the thing that I just can't get people past is the desire to always be as prepared as possible. I had a friend in college who brought the subject and tag of this post into every game we played. He could be playing a freaking schoolmarm in a gingham dress, and he'd have uttered the phrase "Cut off it's head, it's the only way to be sure" at least once per session.

For total transparency, I'm pretty sure Craig never played a school marm in any of our games.

So, you're setting the scene, and on a whim you toss out something that's utterly meaningless, it's total fluff. But your players latch onto it like it's the scraping claws of the Boogieman. How do you get them back on track?

You probably don't . . and why should you?
Run with it. Revell in their paranoia.
If they try to prepare for everything, they have to make concession . .
DANCE MY LITTLE PUPPETS! DANCE!

I'm happy they roleplay on their own and I don't have to care about keeping the plot running.

Yes, valid points, both, but I'm less concerned with relevance to the game than I am with the speed or lack thereof that it occurs at. Too much time spent wondering what to do, not enough doing...

I've had them do that multiple times on the same run and it delayed the 1 session mission into 4 sessions...

They're supposed to do surveillance on a woman for a week because the fiancee guy wants to make sure she's not cheating on him. He wants matrix feeds, video, and audio for the whole week - easy right? Well, the team (beautifully) sets up those things, then also hacks her 'link and turns on its microphone/camera, feeding everything to the hacker and also runs voice recognition and facial recognition softs on everyone she interacts with. Very well planned.

Then they hack her CHN and the hacker (there's hacker and TM) sets off alarms. The TM gets in the same time and covers things up, but they triggered a response from the corporate spider. So the hacker + TM nuke him out of the node and quickly rearrange things so that it looks like the spider was doing naughty things with the node and sends a SecTeam to arrest the corporate spider. Not low key, but well handled.

Well the mark goes to yoga every morning, then work, then out to some bars (drinking responsibly - just relaxing, and she shoots down potential suitors by saying she's engaged) with girlfriends every night. Her yoga instructor, though, is a guy and they kiss on the mouth. Nothing romantic, just a kiss. The team freaks out again and try searching his info and all this stuff; it turns out he's a highschool best friend of the mark and the guy's single - and he also works for Mitsuhama (the Mark and Johnson do too) in R&D. So instead of trusting a highschool friendship they decide to hack his implanted comm.... and set of alarms again... while he's at work. And then they find out he's gay.

What was going to be a simple "You follow her for a week, nothing really happens (yoga, work, friends, repeat), you turn in info, get paid" turned into "You set off the firewall alarms. Roll Matrix Init.... Roll Wil + Biofeed for dumpshock.... You're being traced..." ect. for four sessions.

You need a Tank-Troll with high combat skills.

There are two broad routes to address this:

1) Stay the course - Don't change the plot. It's a red herring and your players are nuts, but it's what players do. If they're just waiting on a sound they heard, let them wait. A minute of silence followed by 'alright, forty five minutes pass and nothing moves. What do you do next?' normally has the desired effect. If it threatens to seriously derail everything ('the matchbook was from Reddy's, and the bouncer there is an elf! Clearly that guy knows something!') you can have them roll an intelligence test as an excuse to tell them it's nothing, or just OOC tell them 'hey, that's not really the clue. If it's alright with you guys, I'd rather we not get side-tracked on this red herring'. Or you can just give them ANY answer so they move on (that scratching was a devilrat. Look! There it is! You shot it! Good, let's move on.)

2) Run with it - The noise IS something. Give them the minute of silence - THEN SOMETHING BURSTS OUT AT THEM!!! Make sure it's something freaky awesome so afterwards they high-five each other on their awesome reflexes. With investigations this can be a bit tougher, but totally winging an investigation that has completely gone off the rails can be a lot of fun (bonuses for beer at the table). Just remember you're on the players' team, trying to make a compelling story. They go track down that elf bouncer from Reddy's and HOLY DREK HIS LIVING ROOM IS FULL OF BLOODY HEADS!!!

Really it's up to what you and your group is most comfortable with. Just remember, everyone is there to have fun, and generally 'guess the clue' (or 'guess the not-clue') doesn't cut it.

As a more general rule, if you have guys who 'know all the answers', the answer is to let him hold the books as you just make crazy stuff up. I have a binder of stuff if you want. Creatures that absolutely blow through the established laws of 'this is what is allowed'. Monsters who regenerate unless their feet are cut off and are composed entirely of explodium. Monsters that make all your buddies look like zombies and stumble around the flat in the middle of the night looking for the light switch. People play the 'cut off its head and burn it' card because it feels dependable. Pull the rug out from under them (and then set it on fire).

Huh. I guess in a game where anyone can play a mage, "it's magic" doesn't cut it nearly as well as "it's some deep, dark, toxic metamagic."

Is this an unsubtle hint

You are now prepared for every situation that should arise.

I will admit there's more than a little of it on these boards, but nothing that's specifically leapt out at me lately. It just occurred to me that I still don't know how to deal with the situation when it does arise, at least not as well as I'd like.

I'm pretty sure you guys weren't belaboring any points thus far...

The answer is.. you let them run with it.
If you feel they're fixating on The Tie was Green! ZOMG it's a sign! Look at their sheets, secretly roll either logic or intuition + an appropriate knowledge skill/qualities if they have them. Then give them a quite clue by 4.

But if they're having fun..etc.. let it go.

hopefully one char has the Common Sense positive quality as obviously the players don't. so you can always give him a hint

There's days I'm tempted to make it a mandatory positive quality for all PCs.

Hey!

I resemble that remark.

Paranoia is only a bad thing if there arent people\things out to get you. Most PC's *do*. Hell, I prefer cut its head off\nuke it from orbit in RL, just to avoid unnecessary complications and people\situations coming back again and again and again. Play against enough devious GM's and shooting everyone who isnt you starts looking a tad awesome

now we're getting somewhere. it's not the PCs' fault...

Heeeere we are, born to be kings, we're the princes of the univeeeerse...

Lord, why did I start watching the Highlander series again? On topic, though, I would play with that paranoia and seed a doom greater than even they expect that has no intention of actually messing with them until they go after it. Sure, it might be deadly, but it should make them think twice about going off on wild witch hunts.

Pretty much.
At least, if you have somebody playing him who wants to get stuff done . .
Quote:"Ah, hell with it, where's my weapon, i'm going to solve this my way now."

I have always rolled with whatever my players come up with. It has send them on so many wild goose chases in the past and several dead ends though sometimes it has been needed to ram them with a Stonewall MBT to get them back on track. In more than one instance I have literally thrown my notes over my shoulders and winged it for hours or sessions on end. But let them have fun and have fun yourself by torturing them.
You could of course have their Johnson suddenly check up on their process, listen to what they have gotten so far and then let him eliminate the false clues just to get the story back in track.

Also in my group I had one player who I always gave Common Sense for free just so I could veto some of his actions

If this is SR, then the guy doing that isn't getting RP karma. Tell him this. Let him know that he is actually slowing his character's advancement.

There are different types of min-maxing. Doing it wisely is good for the game and vice versa. I always encourage my players to put a catch-all/general knowledge type skill into their characters' skill lists.

Don't change the core plot but do generate complications when they are going off on wild tangents.

If they are behaving erratically, wasting time and inventing unnecessary complications, they are bound to fail once in a while, especially when there is a time limit (and always impose one if they have that kind of problems).

A few run without pay does wonder to bring back common sense.

I had such problems with players spending 3 hours to prepare a break-in inside a low security building where they could easily just walk in, do whatever they need to do and get out.

Sometimes, I solve this by saying "it's a piece of cake for runners like you so we won't play it" or "There's just an underpaid security guard here. If you give him a few nuyens or show him a gun he probably won't bother you."
When things are a bit more complicated but I still don't want the players to spend the whole session planning the prefect break-in, I use planning pools.

Hmm, I'd have to say "Run with it" and make them work for it. Slowly, cleverly, you bring them back to the task at hand, remind them about deadlines, etc.
And encourage off-mission but good RP, planning, etc. It rewards the players and yourself as hopefully they'll get a damned clue and try to focus.


Then again, you can tail that lowbie securacop mentioned earlier.
Consult your notes: "John Q Meatshield, divorved, no savings, no life, no hair, no future"
...And then suddenly have your expert face, TM, mage, etc lose him down a side street, where after an extensive search, you find tips of his severed fingers.



Sometimes the players just look at each other, turn around and walk away.
ie: "Uhhh, d'ya think that house is unguarded now?"

Sometimes the players want to investigate.
"This might be a bad idea."
"Like, since when have you ever had a good idea?"
"When I bought these Stick-N-Shock rounds for cheap?"

Sometimes the players realise they're getting out of the scope of the mission.
"Let's leave things as they are and get back to the house, kids. I'm sure the nice man will be back for those in a little while..."


The times the player do none of these things, that's when you earn your keep as GM and respect from your players.
Game on:)

-Tir

As an aside, we've had a Schoolmarm crit with her steel rule. (Pathfinder) We now refer to it as the Vorpal Board of Education.

Ah yes, the corollary to the rule about "if you can imagine it, there's porn of it on the Internet" - in this case "If you suggest it as an outlandish notion, someone's played it in an RPG somewhere."

We once went so far out of the prepared run, the GM threw the module (RPGA) out and put us through a Lemmings (computer game) scenario she created on the spot. One player finally figured out what was going on.

Was it all the guys walking around with blue suits, green hair, and egg shaped heads that tipped the guy off?

It wasn't quite that obvious.

Details man, detail!

Dbl Post

Yeah! Details. Because when I think Lemmings. I'm seeing a bunch of guys following each other in a line. Maybe some are standing there with their hands held outward, looking from side to side saying, "NO! YOU SHALL NOT PASS!" Other dudes might be randomly laying bricks to make a stairway to heaven knows where. You see a guy here or there digging towards China. This other guy is punching a wall and making a tunnel. Then suddenly, everyone around you explodes leaving a bunch of craters and sparkledust.

It was a long time ago (close to 20 years now), and details are sketchy. I also didn't know the game, so the weird stuff was just weird, rather than sticking in my mind. There was a lot of jumping... off of things, trampolines (?); a cannon(?).

Sorry, I just don't remember the details.

Let them follow the fluff one or two times them OOC popinto ut they are wasting time on red herrings and need to do better on time management. Then run plots with a time line. if you don't do something right by time X then Y happens and oh, hey you guys:
a) don't get paid
b) find the police looking for you
c) get fatally dead.

That seems quite extreme for cases where the players are just having fun and driving forward the plot on their own initiative, instead of you having to baby-feed them (even if the plot they're developing isn't your planned plot for the session).

The GM sees it as an issue so I give a response. If he didn't ask for a fix he wouldn't be here.
I didn't mean to do all 3 options but they are ideas to consider.

Yeah, sometimes people forget that players are playing against the system as well as the opposition. If you want to be able to do certain things, then you've got to have the dice, and you don't get that by wasting a quarter of your build points on flavor.

As far as characters knowing things that they don't have direct knowledge skills for, that's the magic of defaulting. Anyone with an Intuition of 5 can buy one hit on a default street knowledge test. Logic, naturally, can be boosted to crazy levels.
Besides that, the idea of knowledge or information as a rare commodity died back in the middle 90s, and Internet is nothing compared to the Matrix.

Don't forget to have fun with vehicles! A very common activity (for both runner and normals) is to have your vehicle come meet them for a pickup.

Scene was a vehicle pulled up near the runners and sat there for over a min with no one getting out, there was obvious signs of movement of something in the vehicle. They decided it was best to handle with high explosives. The owners came out of the building right about the time the car exploded. I think the dog was a pure-breed too.

What happened to the NPCs : "ok, we are done here i'm calling the car around" [dog wakes up as the vehicle moves and gets excited]. People run into someone and they chat a few. Dog remains anxious. Time passes. Boom!

Also dont forget their are script kiddies out there. Have a random vending machine chuck something at one of the PCs when he walks by. Or heck stalk a PC. Its just some teenager pulling a prank.... well until the PCs raid their house


Sometimes the "fluf" becomes embarassing stories that follow the characters around. Its all part of the character.

From a GM standpoint when you leave nothing but bodies so do your opponents. Cuts down on the sadastic bloodshed. There is a difference between being a professional who is caught and a genocidal group who should be put down for the good of society.

I actually *prefer* being bloodless, unseen and unknown when accomplishing a job. But when Murphy sticks his nose in and things mess up, sometimes people get hurt. Then they get all butt-hurt when its just business Revenge(IMO of course) is a sucker's game, but its damned annoying when some little security guard starts up his own team just because you got him fired or shot him in the knee or somesuch. It all depends on how devious and conniving the GM is being really

I have no problems with wasting guys shooting at me. I just don't like leaving a trail of corpses because you are afraid they may remember you. What I don't want is even a unethical corporation to be sickened by the carnage and public outrage. I really don't want notoriety to be higher than the reputation.

Our group has a motto: 'Zero residual presence'. If we've actually had to bring out the explosive rounds, vindicator, mana bolts, compelling people to shoot their own heads off and have the hacker bring in his armed drones, then things have gone far, far south. Talking Plan Z level south. We have a stealth troll for a reason after all.

This is only working because our GM is specifically *not* out for our blood in a manner that'd make Dracula take notice. We screw up we screw up and pay the consequences, but its not intentially 'Im going to do my best to kill you'. I havent always been so lucky. One home-brew system I played ended up with my character being the only surviving member of the human race after a giant bug invasion. GM was shocked, had been trying to kill me(right down to nukes and orbital kill shots) the whole time. Figured Id make the honorable choice. heh.

wat?

also:
honor is for teh dumb!

I think a stealth troll is all black and covered with faceted surfaces, right?

No, a Stealth Troll is a troll in rollerskates that everybody refers to as the Jackrabbit. Maybe a larger model one, 4 door or something. Could even give them some mirrored shades to pass as the windshield.

Stealth Troll: A massive cybered troll, with no ruthenium plating or chameleon suit or anything, that has managed to successfully make his stealth rolls in the following situations:

A. Hiding in a room from a mass of Yakuza...then shooting them and hiding again. In the same room.

B. Hidden from a bunch of bugs in Chicago, despite wearing full armor and toting a vindicator.

C. Climbed up the side of a building by hand and surprised sniper by taking his rifle from him. Two rounds total for those events.

Ive seen his sheet, his stealth is 'ok', he just keeps making *really* good rolls and going up against a GM that for some reason cant roll worth shit with checks like this.

Heh, don't ruin the joke with reality. Actually, I'm sure the GM is resolving things wrong if all that happened. At some point, things are Obvious.

that
is
awesome.

Enh, the Yak thing is the only one I wondered about, but when its *new* guys coming in and they're dumb enough to not check the dark room again, who am I to say? The rest, honestly, I can imagine a sniper being so wrapped up in his job he just doesnt notice his surroundings, especially since this was a normal opposing runner team and not prime runners. The bugs? *shrug* frak would I know, bugs = big scary things, not much else in my head.

As for ruining the joke, i figure the reality is just as funny. Im thinking of buying him a giant neon sign saying 'I ROLLED A 4', see if that helps his checks

It's still pretty awesome. It is why I would love to have certain members of my RPG group DM. He has terrible rolls. All the time.