Dumpshock Forums > Techno-Face

Udoshi

Jan 29 2011, 03:25 AM

In light of all the recent threads about technomancers, I wanted to showcase an interesting build: A technomancer face, focuses around the Networker stream. Technoshaman didn't appeal to me, and I thought it'd be good to show off some interesting trick. This character is not -quite- meant for serious play: The skills are low, some(okay, most) of the attributes are pathetic, and the complex forms are non-optimal at best.(i really hate the logic limit), and they -really- need more gear, not to mention a lifestyle.

Still, I'd welcome some critique. On one hand, I was aiming to make a Networker with some interesting tricks beyond the normal technomancer-norm. I quite like the idea of symbiosis being sort of tied to the resonance (this neighborhood is my home node), and the use of the resonant conditioning critter power as a means of tricking the 'normals'. AR is supposed to be -everywhere- in 2072, and it makes sense that a social-mancer would use it to their advantage. Telematics is also interesting, in that it shows where nodes are around you, and scans them out automatically for you. Its basically a sixth sense for hidden nodes. Sure, it does it slow, but in a social environment(dinner, a meeting, shopping) you have a few minutes to kill to track down peoples hidden links.

One final note is this character was made with BP-gen, so mosts of the costs are in build points. I did want to compare it to karmagen, so I converted the costs and marked the karma costs in each section. For the record, I used the balanced, german karmagen (pay some for race, 4a costs), and it came out with about 150 points to spare.

Anyway, have at it.

[ Spoiler ]

Saint Sithney

Jan 29 2011, 05:02 AM

You mean tunnel, not sapper, right? In the wrap-up?

I'd worry about the TIe CF. I feel like, while it may be software that has absolutely no mention to how it's supposed to run, logically it would have to be installed on a network of wireless devices to triangulate positions continuously.

Yerameyahu

Jan 29 2011, 05:11 AM

Depends on what he's planning for it to do. If he's running TI, he can be *part* of such a network. I agree that he can't get any particular bonuses by himself, and I hope he's not trying to use it for something silly, like free automatic Scan/Trace/etc. There are already ways to do that (some simpler).

Udoshi

Jan 29 2011, 05:29 AM

QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 28 2011, 10:02 PM)

You mean tunnel, not sapper, right? In the wrap-up?

I'd worry about the TIe CF. I feel like, while it may be software that has absolutely no mention to how it's supposed to run, logically it would have to be installed on a network of wireless devices to triangulate positions continuously.

Yes, i do mean tunnel. Nice catch, and edited.

Ti-E, i feel, works fine as-is. Resonance fuckery, ahoy! You can tie your team's communications into it, though, and use them as your TI network. As a counterpoint to Sithney, TI DOES say how its supposed to be run. There's nothing that prevents it from being run by a single node - but its much, much more effective with more signals/scanners tied into it.

At the very least, it points out theprecise physical locations of notes you can detect, which IS something Trace doesn't do.

Saint Sithney

Jan 29 2011, 06:21 AM

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jan 28 2011, 09:29 PM)

At the very least, it points out theprecise physical locations of notes you can detect, which IS something Trace doesn't do.

Yeah, Trace can get you to, what, a 50 meter radius?

Do you know how many Heimdall missiles it takes to vaporize a 50m radius? It's a lot.

Udoshi

Jan 29 2011, 07:22 AM

QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 28 2011, 11:21 PM)

Yeah, Trace can get you to, what, a 50 meter radius?

yeah, though, Analyze debatably can pinpoint a node once you've traced it (one relevant piece of information is a valid choice for using your net hits).

Still, TI does it automatically, which is really nice.

Mäx

Jan 29 2011, 01:58 PM

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jan 29 2011, 05:25 AM)

5 intuitive hacking: tunnel (RW 218)
5 intuitive hacking: resonant conditioning (RW 217)

Empathy Sensor Software 5
Telematics Infrastructure 1
Reality amplifier: Focus (unw 189) 1

These all feel kinda suspicious, especially getting emergent critter powers with intuitive hacking quality and the reality amplifier as complex form.

Yerameyahu

Jan 29 2011, 02:24 PM

Yeah, wait what?

That's ridiculous.

You get to choose a normal Matrix action, not a *power*.

Amps are BTLs, which I'm not aware you can CF.

TI triangulates, using comprehensive area coverage.

Udoshi

Jan 29 2011, 06:57 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 29 2011, 06:58 AM)

These all feel kinda suspicious, especially getting emergent critter powers with intuitive hacking quality

Its a technomancer, i'm a technomancer. We both use the resonance. What more do you need?

Oh yeah. Rules.

Both critter powers are a single matrix action, which makes them perfectly fine to take with Intuitive Hacking.

What, exactly, is your issue with it besides it feeling not right?

As for the CF: See the OP. I already said that, for this character, CF's of other programs would be allowed. The FAQ ruling seems to support this, but leaves a backdoor for the GM to shoot it down.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 29 2011, 07:24 AM)

Yeah, wait what?

That's ridiculous.
You get to choose a normal Matrix action, not a *power*.

I'm surprised you didn't notice that earlier.
It IS a power!
That lets you take an action!
This is the part where I make a pun about Resonance Shortcuts.

Yerameyahu

Jan 29 2011, 07:04 PM

Don't get indignant; this is extremely munchkin (much more than running a 1-node TI system for free scans). Using the power requires a specific action, that's all. Intuitive Hacking lets you take a normal Matrix action that would otherwise require a program or complex form. Not a power.

Mäx

Jan 29 2011, 07:11 PM

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jan 29 2011, 08:57 PM)

What, exactly, is your issue with it besides it feeling not right?

Mostly the fact that your using a cheap quality to get stuff that it's not meant to give you and you can't get in anyway except bending that quality over backwards.
Also the part where the hacker can take those powers too if a techno can.
Also while they maybe matrix actions, their a kind of actions you can't normally make under any circumstances.

And of those complex forms im mostly vary of the reality amplifier which is a BTL chip.

Yerameyahu

Jan 29 2011, 07:15 PM

BTL chip/program. I'm just not sure if you can CF a BTL in the first place. Simsense programs generally have special limitations (ActiveSofts, Program Options). ActiveSofts, for example, can't be Threaded, and can't be normally CF'd; instead, you have to Emulate (possibly saving into a CF) them from a working copy, right? It is possible that you could do that for an Amp (14R, stupidly-low 500¥).

I'd definitely enforce BTL addiction rules, though.

Udoshi

Jan 29 2011, 07:16 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 29 2011, 12:11 PM)

And of those complex forms im mostly vary of the reality amplifier which is a BTL chip.

Granted on the first points. It works, but its still kind of cheesy.

As a counterpoint to the one-node TI: As written, it ignores mutual signal range. Nodes -just- need to be inside its coverage area. If you're using strict RAW, then one node TI is all you need.

As for BTLs, all you need to run them is a hotsim module.
Which..... technomancers have built in, don't they?
Besides, I like the idea of a TM having a Spock Mode switch they can turn on and off. And getting addicted to their own resonane.
Why shouldn't technomancers be able to hack their own brain?

Your point about simsense programs really isn't valid: It can't take program options, and its not a skillwire program.

Yerameyahu

Jan 29 2011, 07:22 PM

It really is valid, because I didn't make either of those arguments. I said, "I'm just not sure if you can CF a BTL in the first place. Simsense programs generally have special limitations (ActiveSofts, Program Options)." That is, *I'm not sure* you can do it, and I gave examples of similar cases. Christ.

Nothing's stopping you from running Amp as a normal program, of course. It's not clear to me if being a Technomancer counts as a hotsim for non-CFs, but a 1/1 commlink isn't exactly a roadblock there. Again, if Emulation is not an option.

Glyph

Jan 29 2011, 09:19 PM

This is a comparatively minor quibble, but why do you have a nanohive that is used alphaware? It costs exactly the same as a standard grade nanohive, and you aren't even saving Essence, since you are using your cyberhand's capacity for it. I would recommend changing it to standard grade. Getting used 'ware just gives the GM an excuse to make things go wrong with it at the worst possible times, and you aren't getting any kind of benefit to offset that.

Udoshi

Jan 29 2011, 09:46 PM

QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 29 2011, 02:19 PM)

This is a comparatively minor quibble, but why do you have a nanohive that is used alphaware? It costs exactly the same as a standard grade nanohive, and you aren't even saving Essence, since you are using your cyberhand's capacity for it. I would recommend changing it to standard grade. Getting used 'ware just gives the GM an excuse to make things go wrong with it at the worst possible times, and you aren't getting any kind of benefit to offset that.

Cost and grade requirements.

I need the alphaware hand to fit it in one point of essence.
Things that go into that hand must be alpha+grade.
Second-hand is half off, for an increased essence tradeoff. Since we're using capacity, its not an issue.
used-gear penalties are GM-dependent, and not an automatic, hard, god-given penalty.

Its an even better deal if you're using a basic-grade limb.

Yerameyahu

Jan 29 2011, 09:58 PM

You'd think they'd increase the capacity, then. Oh well.

Can't close every little loophole.

Glyph

Jan 29 2011, 10:07 PM

Ah, missed that the cyberhand was alpha.

Normally, the GM can make the character "pay" for used 'ware by making it less reliable, but if a GM is permissive to allow all of this rules-bending, he isn't likely to be a hardass about enforcing things like that.

Ryu

Jan 29 2011, 11:04 PM

You demonstrate perfectly that karmagen is superior for TMs. That statline could use a boost, and refitting the quality setup as I would will not save BP:

5 TM - obvious
5 Analytical Mind - +2 data search/software
5 Paragon (Flow: +2 threading, +1 code/data sprites, -1 cybercombat attack)
10 Perceptive 2 - +2 to Matrix Perception tests
10 Homeground - +2 for whipping up sprites in a specific group of nodes
(Establish the Resonance Bond ingame using RP.)

The skillset of a Face should Include Perception, Perceptive helps somewhat. We need more given Skill 0 and Intuition 2. Not a karmagen problem.

Using BP-gen Orks are the better trade-off here compared to Dryads - Cha-3 Agi-1 Bod+2 Str+2 BP+55, relativly speaking. Get Int +2=4 (+6 to knowledge skills, maybe Language 4/Language 2), get a +3 to distribute among groups, get another contact. Given the networking idea, sprites are more fitting than doing stuff on your own. Minmax the groups (7+3=10 rating points to distribute):

Influence 4 to compensate for lower CHA
Compiling 5 / Registering 5 instead of Tasking 4 - (Homeground 2, get a spec ingame)
Cracking 1
EW 1

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jan 29 2011, 07:57 PM)

Both critter powers are a single matrix action, which makes them perfectly fine to take with Intuitive Hacking.

Tempting as the idea might be, Intuitive Hacking removes the need for a CF, but not for a power. If you somehow get the power, you could also get Intuitive Hacking for it.

Saint Sithney

Jan 30 2011, 12:15 AM

QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 29 2011, 02:07 PM)

Normally, the GM can make the character "pay" for used 'ware by making it less reliable, but if a GM is permissive to allow all of this rules-bending, he isn't likely to be a hardass about enforcing things like that.

You might be thinking about the Buggy Ware quality.
Used costs more essence; that's the tradeoff.

Capacity just circumvents that at the cost of having chrome.

Yerameyahu

Jan 30 2011, 12:16 AM

He's thinking of the printed suggestion about making used 'ware buggy.

Udoshi

Jan 30 2011, 10:42 PM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 29 2011, 05:16 PM)

He's thinking of the printed suggestion about making used 'ware buggy.

This. Arsenal has a similiar suggestion for making used-cars have interesting quirks, as well.

czarcasm

Jan 31 2011, 02:46 AM

A quick question -- why should Pushed or neocortical nanites (or an encephalon for that matter) help a technomancer? If I recall correctly, those types of ware boost logic-linked skills. To be sure, the Electronics and Cracking skillgroups normally are logic-linked. But aren't the special technomancer versions linked to resonance instead?

Udoshi

Jan 31 2011, 03:29 AM

QUOTE (czarcasm @ Jan 30 2011, 07:46 PM)

But aren't the special technomancer versions linked to resonance instead?

Good questions!

Linked and dice pools are completely seperate things!

Hacking, for example, is a Logic-Linked Skill.

To hack a node, you roll Hacking+Exploit.

It doesn't matter where exploit comes from(it can be an AI inherent program, a cf, or a regular program), and you don't have to even be rolling Logic as part of the pool!

In short, whats good for the goose is good for the gander, and it doesn't matter if a tm uses the resonance or not. In this case, yes, PuSHeD and cortical nanites add to all logic linked skills. Including threading! Because that uses software, which is linked to logic.

Neither the logic attribute OR the resonance attribute really come into play here.
It also means that, for example, logic-linked nanites don't help with memory tests - because you don't roll a skill. Its an attribute only test,

Yerameyahu

Jan 31 2011, 03:54 AM

Sounds like pretty sneaky sneakiness.

Doesn't the technomancer literally use Resonance-linked 'versions' of all those skills? Oh well, might as well try every trick in a charop exercise.

Udoshi

Jan 31 2011, 04:06 AM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 30 2011, 08:54 PM)

Sounds like pretty sneaky sneakiness.

Doesn't the technomancer literally use Resonance-linked 'versions' of all those skills? Oh well, might as well try every trick in a charop exercise.

No, he uses Logic-linked skills, and resonance-based(but not linked, because its not a skill) complex forms. If you check the list of skills, there ARE resonance linked skills. The cracking and electronics groups are not part of those skills. But tasking is!

are you really trying to argue that someone who hacks the internet with their brain doesn't use their brain to hack the internet?

Yerameyahu

Jan 31 2011, 04:25 AM

Nope. Who said that?

Anyway, it's very technomancery to steal one of the few mundane hacker advantages, so can't fault that. Unless you want to.

In which case, you could make a decent argument that they're Resonance-y skills. Oh well.

czarcasm

Jan 31 2011, 04:40 AM

But technomancers still can't use simsense accelerators, right?

Udoshi

Jan 31 2011, 04:46 AM

QUOTE (czarcasm @ Jan 30 2011, 09:40 PM)

But technomancers still can't use simsense accelerators, right?

Wrong.

Edit: Wait, no.

Accelerators are the commlink mod.
Boosters are the implant.

The answer is yes, to both, but it may not work with their resonance abilities.

A TM with a simsense booster implant gets a 4th matrix pass, but is unable to get a 5th one. See the shadowrun FAQ, specifically "Do technomancers benefit from the Encephalon or Simsense Booster cyberware?".
They can't get a 5th pass because the 'you can break the 4th pass rule' is specifically in the Advanced Overclocking echo description(if they had it, they wouldn't need the booster), and in the Accelerator.

Nothing stops a TM from using trodes and a Commlink with a Simsense accelerator, and their own booster to gain 5 passes, but it'd be old-school/retro style, which TM's generally don't like.

I honestly don't know if a TM can hook up a simsense accelerator to their brain. I'm leaning towards 'no', because their head isn't a commlink, but i'm not sure what happens if its connected to a booster too.

Yerameyahu

Jan 31 2011, 04:53 AM

Sure, if they're using redundant non-Technomancer skills on a commlink instead of their bionode.

Udoshi

Jan 31 2011, 04:57 AM

Exactly.

Is there any reason why an Otaku-style TM with a datajack and a simsense booster couldn't connect/network/slave/cluster/modify a simsense accelerator into his other hardware for the 5th pass?

I am cautiously inclined to say yes; as a 2-slot modification the accelerator doesn't necessarily have to go into a commlink. Commlink have 4 slots, but other electonic devices do have space for mods as well.

Yerameyahu

Jan 31 2011, 05:11 AM

You really have no shame at all. No! They're "Commlink Modifications". For commlinks. The accelerator specifically mentions commlinks.

And just so I'm sure, you're not saying you can get a 5th pass from this except by getting 5 *normal*, non-Technomancer passes on a normal commlink, are you?

You only get one set of initiative passes with one initiative score, at a time. If you're using your Living Persona, you get that; if you're using your commlink persona, you get that; if you're using AR/any physical actions, you get that (special Echoes being the exception, obviously).

Udoshi

Jan 31 2011, 05:18 AM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 30 2011, 10:11 PM)

You really have no shame at all. No! They're "Commlink Modifications". For commlinks. The accelerator specifically mentions commlinks.

And just so I'm sure, you're not saying you can get a 5th pass from this except by getting 5 *normal*, non-Technomancer passes on a normal commlink, are you?

You only get one set of initiative passes with one initiative score, at a time. If you're using your Living Persona, you get that; if you're using your commlink persona, you get that; if you're using AR/any physical actions, you get that (special Echoes being the exception, obviously).

Yes, i am saying that a TM can use his non-living avatar persona with a 5-pass booster/accelerator combo,just like a hacker. I think we both agree on that point.

However.

A simsense booster works with the living avatar, per FAQ.
So why doesn't a simsense accelerator?

Yerameyahu

Jan 31 2011, 05:27 AM

Cuz it's a piece of computer gear, not wetware. Actually, I recall this same discussion with respect to an AI; different reason, but same 'no'. :/

Honestly, the Technomancer has a way of getting this anyway, and it's not even that much karma (with your Resonance group/sprite bond trickery). Don't be greedy.

Hehe. If there *weren't* already an Echo for it, you might be able to argue that it should be a (really overpowered) CF, like some of the other 'gear' CFs (which I can't remember right now, bleh).

Udoshi

Jan 31 2011, 06:25 AM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 30 2011, 10:27 PM)

Cuz it's a piece of computer gear, not wetware. Actually, I recall this same discussion with respect to an AI; different reason, but same 'no'. :/

Honestly, the Technomancer has a way of getting this anyway, and it's not even that much karma (with your Resonance group/sprite bond trickery). Don't be greedy.

Hehe. If there *weren't* already an Echo for it, you might be able to argue that it should be a (really overpowered) CF, like some of the other 'gear' CFs (which I can't remember right now, bleh).

yeah, but AI's cant use implants, and TM's can. And these implants ARE compatable. Its not the same at all.

I'm almost inclined to say no, just because a TM doesn't pay essence for it, but then again, neither does a hacker. They *could* pay essence if its in internal commlink, but its not required.

Mäx

Jan 31 2011, 07:16 AM

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jan 31 2011, 08:25 AM)

yeah, but AI's cant use implants, and TM's can.

And this is relevant how exactly?
Simsense Accelerator isn't an implant, its a commlink mod.

Yerameyahu

Jan 31 2011, 03:12 PM

Indeed. AIs can use nodes, after all, but that still doesn't let them benefit from a commlink mod that specifically affects simsense and the persona (neither of which an AI uses, here).

Sengir

Jan 31 2011, 03:47 PM

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jan 31 2011, 06:18 AM)

A simsense booster works with the living avatar, per FAQ.
So why doesn't a simsense accelerator?

Because the Booster works where the TM's persona is generated, namely the brain. The Accelerator sits in a commlink, which has nothing to do with generating the persona. Same reason why your van's turbocharger does not affect matrix initiative.

Udoshi

Feb 7 2011, 12:32 AM

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jan 31 2011, 08:47 AM)

Because the Booster works where the TM's persona is generated, namely the brain. The Accelerator sits in a commlink, which has nothing to do with generating the persona. Same reason why your van's turbocharger does not affect matrix initiative.

Okay, so how does this change if the Accelerator is built into the VR unit instead?
Or the Simsense booster itself? Also, all cyberware has a device rating. Even if its only 3.

Remember, the commlink modifications section in unwired, while titled commlink mods, also applies to other electronic devices. (sometimes you have to read below the header to get a the full rule)
And, honestly, a simsense accelerator in the sim unit, instead of the commlink, makes MUCH more sense. Its also (very slightly) a good reason to get an implanted VR unit. (though simrigs are better if you don't mind the extra essence.)

Suddenly, the commlink isn't in the picture anymore - and yet the accelerator stil works - so I ask you again, why not?

Clarification: For a reason BESIDES game balance - allowing this is basically pissing on it - but i'm curious if there's a good rules-based reason why not?

Glyph

Feb 7 2011, 03:47 AM

The simsense accelerator "increases the speed at which simsense signals are transmitted between the commlink and a persona controlled via hot-sim VR." For a technomancer, there is no distinction between commlink and persona - there is only the living persona. A simsense accelerator doesn't work for them because they operate under a completely different paradigm.

Yerameyahu

Feb 7 2011, 04:16 AM

I feel like that's what I said earlier.

It's a commlink mod that specifically affects simsense and the persona firmware; that means no Technomancers and no AIs, because they simply aren't using that. Even if you tried the 'the mods are for any electronics' trickery (trickery because the Accel specifically says 'commlink'), it doesn't do anything unless this theoretical non-commlink device has persona firmware and simsense (…which is basically the definition of a commlink).

Udoshi

Feb 7 2011, 04:50 AM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 6 2011, 09:16 PM)

I feel like that's what I said earlier.

It's a commlink mod that specifically affects simsense and the persona firmware; that means no Technomancers and no AIs, because they simply aren't using that. Even if you tried the 'the mods are for any electronics' trickery (trickery because the Accel specifically says 'commlink'), it doesn't do anything unless this theoretical non-commlink device has persona firmware and simsense (…which is basically the definition of a commlink).

Counterpoints: Technomancers DO have persona firmware; they have an icon and a Living Persona, and even have a uniquely generated access id.(4a 217)
Even if they DIDN'T have it, they could thread it - the resonance has shown the ability to duplicate normaly 'firmware' programs and utility anyway.
Additional rebuttal: A Simsense Accelerator is not a commlink mod; it is simply 'a state of the art mod' that does something. Its not trickery: In a usual hacker setup, modding an accelerator into a sim unit, which is then networked to a commlink fulfils the necessary requirements. (Vr controlled persona, commlink)

QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 6 2011, 08:47 PM)

The simsense accelerator "increases the speed at which simsense signals are transmitted between the commlink and a persona controlled via hot-sim VR." For a technomancer, there is no distinction between commlink and persona - there is only the living persona. A simsense accelerator doesn't work for them because they operate under a completely different paradigm.

As opposed to:

QUOTE (Udoshi)

How about: The simsense accelerator "increases the speed at which simsense signals are transmitted between the (Bionode) and a (Living) persona controlled via hot-sim VR." For a technomancer, there is no distinction between commlink and persona - there is only the living persona.

I feel Glyph has made my point for me.
Even so, the entire point of technomancers is that they are backwards compatable with the rest of the matrix. They even use the same VR everyone else does - which is WHY the simsense booster works for them.

Yerameyahu

Feb 7 2011, 05:12 AM

They have a living persona. It's equivalent. That's not 'same'.

You can't (or possibly "shouldn't") thread a 'persona' CF, because you're using your living persona. I can't even imagine what would happen.

The description of the simsense accelerator specifies 'commlink' as part of the equation. It's no use making a 'physics' argument, because it's all handwavium to start with. Just decided whether or not you want it to work, instead of squeezing the rules until they do what you want.

… Did you alter a quote of Glyph? That's not cool, and very confusing.

Udoshi

Feb 8 2011, 12:27 AM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 6 2011, 10:12 PM)

… Did you alter a quote of Glyph? That's not cool, and very confusing.

I did; but I did want to do it to show a point, not to be a snide jerk putting words into other people's mouths. One moment, let me edit that, and thank you for pointing it out.

I'll respond to your other stuff, but i wanted to get this out of the way first.

Udoshi

Feb 8 2011, 12:43 AM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 6 2011, 10:12 PM)

They have a living persona. It's equivalent. That's not 'same'.

You can't (or possibly "shouldn't") thread a 'persona' CF, because you're using your living persona. I can't even imagine what would happen.

The description of the simsense accelerator specifies 'commlink' as part of the equation. It's no use making a 'physics' argument, because it's all handwavium to start with. Just decided whether or not you want it to work, instead of squeezing the rules until they do what you want.

I will agree with you on the shouldn't. Just because its possible, doesn't mean its a good idea.

So.... why can't a technomancer connect a commlink to their bionode? Boom, second half of the equation filled. If it doesn't work, your essentailly arguing that Hacker's can use VR.

Hacker has a commlink. It can surf the trix.
Hacker gets a VR unit. Connects it to the commlink. Boom, VR-enabled.
The point is, simply networking the devices is enough to enable something you couldn't do before. The actual -rules- mechanics of this are in such a huge grey area its not funny (is it a subscription? Is slaving required. What if its one of those 'built-into' the new 2070's commlink things. What if it ISN'T, and you have an external one, or a cyberware one connected to an external commlink through a datajack? If it is a subscription, can you break/spoof the subscription to drop someone out of VR? How does this fit in with clustering and slaving? How exactly DOES this sharing-of-functionality propogate across the network, anyway? Can you use 1 sim unit to put a few networked people into VR at the same time? Does it need a hard link? Does it work over wi-fi? If it DOES work over wi-fi, can you forcibly network a vr unit to someone's commlink?)

I'm not expecting anyone to answer this: The point is to show its a can of worms. Its a pretty commonly accepted thing that if you have a commlink and a vr unit, you can go into vr.

Same thing, only with our TM.
technomancer IS the vr unit.
Connects him/her self to a commlink. (No, i don't mean decking old-school, without the resonance)
...suddenly there's a commlink in the loop. Uh oh. Now we have both halves connected.

Yerameyahu

Feb 8 2011, 01:35 AM

It's not 'the' loop, that's two separate loops. A technomancer can use a commlink… with mundane persona firmware. Or, they can use their bionode/living persona. Totally different things.

Assuming there's any kind of science behind this (and fully professing that one should never muck around with fictional 'science'), the Accel specifically functions in one way: commlink > Accel > persona firmware. Yes, it's totally arbitrary. No, a technomancer's bionode and living persona don't qualify, unless they're capable of separating the two. They're not, AFAIK. The living persona comes from the bionode exclusively and interacts with (through) the bionode exclusively, because they're a single unit. The is no 'between' in that single unit to insert an electronics mod, especially not one that *specifies* 'commlink'.

The RAW doesn't support a Simsense Accelerator giving a technomancer an extra IP with his living persona. Again, it doesn't matter for actual play, because the GM/table can just change the (frequently fallible) RAW.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Feb 8 2011, 02:08 AM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 7 2011, 06:35 PM)

It's not 'the' loop, that's two separate loops. A technomancer can use a commlink… with mundane persona firmware. Or, they can use their bionode/living persona. Totally different things.

Assuming there's any kind of science behind this (and fully professing that one should never muck around with fictional 'science'), the Accel specifically functions in one way: commlink > Accel > persona firmware. Yes, it's totally arbitrary. No, a technomancer's bionode and living persona don't qualify, unless they're capable of separating the two. They're not, AFAIK. The living persona comes from the bionode exclusively and interacts with (through) the bionode exclusively, because they're a single unit. The is no 'between' in that single unit to insert an electronics mod, especially not one that *specifies* 'commlink'.

The RAW doesn't support a Simsense Accelerator giving a technomancer an extra IP with his living persona. Again, it doesn't matter for actual play, because the GM/table can just change the (frequently fallible) RAW.

Besides, it is totally irrelevant... Technomancers can acquire that 5th Pass through Echoes... So, Since they have their own way to get there, enforce it, and make them buy the echoes for their living persona... if they want to do it through their Comlink (which they can do), they have to buy the mundane hacker skills (they must be bought a second time, per the rulebook)...

Yerameyahu

Feb 8 2011, 02:13 AM

Indeed. I mentioned that in #34, though the exploration of rules is always interesting.

Mardrax

Feb 8 2011, 02:35 AM

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Feb 8 2011, 01:43 AM)

Hacker gets a VR unit. Connects it to the commlink. Boom, VR-enabled.

You're looking for the term "sim module". A module is physically connected to, or installed onto a device to increase its capabilities. Like if you wanted to use a device through skinlink, you'd need to have a skinlink module on every device you want to use through it, and your comlink. Since a technomancer can't connect a module to his brain, their use is not allowed. He can sometimes emulate their function through certain echoes. Echoes, as well as mental attribute increases, are a technomancer's version of a hardware upgrade.
The simsense accelerator is not a module, it's a mod, presumably of the sim module, though it might as well be of the comlink itself.
Either way, a techno has neither available to mod.