I'll have to edit it a bit more, but as a rough draft I'm liking this.
Once beyond, the whole team entered, weapons ready, Adept-Centered,
Closer to the file room that held their payday of nuyen galore,
No more eating soups of lentil, save that angry elemental,
A being of smoke and flame that Gator Shaman could not ignore,
"Distract it," said Gator, "And I shall banish it for evermore,"
Asked the Raven, "Bangalore?"
Full Version: Barbed wire and its lethality
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Feb 9 2011, 08:21 AM) 
Why bother limiting it to concertina?
When in doubt, use a bangalore. Mostly because bangalore is fun to say.
Got a delorean blocking your path? Use a bangalore!
When in doubt, use a bangalore. Mostly because bangalore is fun to say.
Got a delorean blocking your path? Use a bangalore!
A Bangalore is fun that way, yes...
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Feb 9 2011, 11:56 AM)
I'll have to edit it a bit more, but as a rough draft I'm liking this.
Once beyond, the whole team entered, weapons ready, Adept-Centered,
Closer to the file room that held their payday of nuyen galore,
No more eating soups of lentil, save that angry elemental,
A being of smoke and flame that Gator Shaman could not ignore,
"Distract it," said Gator, "And I shall banish it for evermore,"
Asked the Raven, "Bangalore?"
Once beyond, the whole team entered, weapons ready, Adept-Centered,
Closer to the file room that held their payday of nuyen galore,
No more eating soups of lentil, save that angry elemental,
A being of smoke and flame that Gator Shaman could not ignore,
"Distract it," said Gator, "And I shall banish it for evermore,"
Asked the Raven, "Bangalore?"
Totally Awesome Doc... All of it...
Traditional barbed wire, not quite as bad as 5P for absentmindedly walking into it. Still have a scar at the base of my left thumb from when I tripped and found some half-buried in a driveway, though.
Sounds more like concertina wire, as other posters have mentioned.
Electrified wire, ranges from 1S per combat round (the sort for keeping animals penned in/out) to 'hook it to the outlet, put a 100W incandescent bulb in series to keep the breaker from tripping' redneckery.
A higher level of nasty, of course, would be electrified monowire...
Sounds more like concertina wire, as other posters have mentioned.
Electrified wire, ranges from 1S per combat round (the sort for keeping animals penned in/out) to 'hook it to the outlet, put a 100W incandescent bulb in series to keep the breaker from tripping' redneckery.
A higher level of nasty, of course, would be electrified monowire...
it would melt.
Possessed monowire, with ItNW and Energy Aura and Concealment...
I have little experience with coiled concertina wire. Is there much spring in the wire? A whipping wire with razor blades could be nasty.
Aside:
Aside:
[ Spoiler ]
Being a combat engineer, laying concertina wire and using bangalores is all part of my job. Bangalores are pretty bad-ass and seeing them explode and the effects of them right in front of your eyes is awesome. Laying wire sucks though. Especially the pounding pickets part ... screw that.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Feb 9 2011, 03:19 PM)
it would melt.
Not necessarily. Depends on the melting point of the wire, and how well it conducts. Though, a tiny current would be useful enough, because I know I'd like to know if someone cut through the monowire fencing.
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac @ Feb 9 2011, 03:34 PM)
Being a combat engineer, laying concertina wire and using bangalores is all part of my job. Bangalores are pretty bad-ass and seeing them explode and the effects of them right in front of your eyes is awesome. Laying wire sucks though. Especially the pounding pickets part ... screw that.
I will agree with you heree... Laying Concertina Wire absolutely sucks...
And Bangalores are just Awesome... I wish that I could still play with them...
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Feb 9 2011, 03:23 PM)
Once upon a midnight dreary, runners argued, weak and weary,
O'er a very thick and bogglingly locked reinforced steel door,
While they bickered, nearly snapping, suddenly there came a flapping,
As if someone most gently landing, landing on the field before.
"'Tis CorpSec," the Rigger muttered, "landing on the field before--
Loose it all, and nothing more."
Runners readied weapons varied, lasers, rifles, guns named Barry,
Munitions only known of in the annals of forgotten lore,
As their rotodrone was tracking, triggers were squeezed close to cracking,
They saw it was their man Raven, returning from the general store.
He extended a tube that could destroy the reinforced steel door--
Quoth the Raven, "Bangalore."
O'er a very thick and bogglingly locked reinforced steel door,
While they bickered, nearly snapping, suddenly there came a flapping,
As if someone most gently landing, landing on the field before.
"'Tis CorpSec," the Rigger muttered, "landing on the field before--
Loose it all, and nothing more."
Runners readied weapons varied, lasers, rifles, guns named Barry,
Munitions only known of in the annals of forgotten lore,
As their rotodrone was tracking, triggers were squeezed close to cracking,
They saw it was their man Raven, returning from the general store.
He extended a tube that could destroy the reinforced steel door--
Quoth the Raven, "Bangalore."
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Feb 9 2011, 03:40 PM)
The company's being audited today, so writing this poem, titled '600 Seconds', is probably not the best way to spend my time.
To the door the bomb was sticking, quickly was the timer ticking,
The runners bolted away from the lonely reinforced steel door,
Hacker scrambled, quickly thinking, corporate response times were sinking,
Quelching alarms regarding the exploding reinforced steel door,
A gaping hole was all that remained of the reinforced steel door,
Quoth the Raven, "Bangalore."
To the door the bomb was sticking, quickly was the timer ticking,
The runners bolted away from the lonely reinforced steel door,
Hacker scrambled, quickly thinking, corporate response times were sinking,
Quelching alarms regarding the exploding reinforced steel door,
A gaping hole was all that remained of the reinforced steel door,
Quoth the Raven, "Bangalore."
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Feb 9 2011, 03:56 PM)
I'll have to edit it a bit more, but as a rough draft I'm liking this.
Once beyond, the whole team entered, weapons ready, Adept-Centered,
Closer to the file room that held their payday of nuyen galore,
No more eating soups of lentil, save that angry elemental,
A being of smoke and flame that Gator Shaman could not ignore,
"Distract it," said Gator, "And I shall banish it for evermore,"
Asked the Raven, "Bangalore?"
Once beyond, the whole team entered, weapons ready, Adept-Centered,
Closer to the file room that held their payday of nuyen galore,
No more eating soups of lentil, save that angry elemental,
A being of smoke and flame that Gator Shaman could not ignore,
"Distract it," said Gator, "And I shall banish it for evermore,"
Asked the Raven, "Bangalore?"
Is this a parody of what I think it is?
I gotta say Doc, we better find you a girl, you have TOO MUCH free time
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Feb 9 2011, 04:07 PM)
Is this a parody of what I think it is?
I gotta say Doc, we better find you a girl, you have TOO MUCH free time
I gotta say Doc, we better find you a girl, you have TOO MUCH free time
Not a Parody, no... It is An Homage...
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Feb 9 2011, 11:07 PM)
Is this a parody of what I think it is?
I gotta say Doc, we better find you a girl, you have TOO MUCH free time
I gotta say Doc, we better find you a girl, you have TOO MUCH free time
She'll be here for a combined birthday bash in two weeks. That was the product of a Monster and three cups of black coffee in the span of an hour.
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Feb 9 2011, 08:32 AM)
On the ground, dropping a heavy metal plate across the concertina wire kinda works too. Or even just plywood.
That's why there is supposed to be a tension wire inside the top of the concertina.
Yeah, but who does a job properly any more?
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Feb 7 2011, 06:29 PM)
I feel that instead the damage should be 2S for barbed wire and 3S for concertina wire.
If the damage doesn't exceed the target's armor rating, it is already converted to stun.
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Feb 9 2011, 11:38 PM)
If the damage doesn't exceed the target's armor rating, it is already converted to stun.
Even without armor it takes several turns before you are entrapped and severely bleeding. This is why I recommended stun where most damage is a nuisance, but adds up over time. Several small cuts aren't worth physical damage especially when we are assuming 1p is at least half a pint of blood or more. With armor the assumption would be no damage, but lots of untangling yourself from the wire. I am not saying it won't cause severe damage, but just like barbed wire and horses it tends to be the reaction when caught by the wire more than the innate lethality of the wire. As for actual instances of damage with barbed wire the majority is from actually hitting the wire not the barbs initially. The barbs just make it worse if you struggle by cutting into flesh.
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Feb 10 2011, 04:59 AM)
Even without armor it takes several turns before you are entrapped and severely bleeding. This is why I recommended stun where most damage is a nuisance, but adds up over time. Several small cuts aren't worth physical damage especially when we are assuming 1p is at least half a pint of blood or more. With armor the assumption would be no damage, but lots of untangling yourself from the wire. I am not saying it won't cause severe damage, but just like barbed wire and horses it tends to be the reaction when caught by the wire more than the innate lethality of the wire. As for actual instances of damage with barbed wire the majority is from actually hitting the wire not the barbs initially. The barbs just make it worse if you struggle by cutting into flesh.
But in your scenario, it won't cause severe Damage, because you will never struggle beyond the unconsciousness brought on by filling your stun track... I go with Physical Daamge for both, and I honestly think that Concertina should move from 5p to 6p... but that is just me...
Indeed. As I also said, 5P isn't hurting anyone in the setting, because they've all got that much armor. 
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 10 2011, 07:52 AM)
But in your scenario, it won't cause severe Damage, because you will never struggle beyond the unconsciousness brought on by filling your stun track... I go with Physical Daamge for both, and I honestly think that Concertina should move from 5p to 6p... but that is just me...
You are saying it has the same lethality as a rifle in your scenario and occurs within 3 seconds.
Under my scenario the individual would probably pass out from blood loss or keep struggling and accruing damage. If they had heavy armor or thick clothing they might get hopelessly entangled, but not take any damage. It would take several rounds to severely bleed yourself out (4-8 rounds or so for a normal stat 3 human). That is fairly quick.
The reality is how often does a fatality occur with razor wire and how much damage is accrued how quickly? Biggest issue I have ever seen with barbed wire is an animal or person rushes and then struggles causing much more damage than the wire it self would cause if they stop struggling and work their way out.
I'm sure I already said it, but the guns get +net hits, special ammo, Called Shots…
I'm not saying you're wrong about what wires/fences *should* do. I'm saying that they're not actually lethal in SR4 (for anyone who matters).
I'm not saying you're wrong about what wires/fences *should* do. I'm saying that they're not actually lethal in SR4 (for anyone who matters).
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 10 2011, 05:17 PM)
I'm sure I already said it, but the guns get +net hits, special ammo, Called Shots…
I'm not saying you're wrong about what wires/fences *should* do. I'm saying that they're not actually lethal in SR4 (for anyone who matters).
I'm not saying you're wrong about what wires/fences *should* do. I'm saying that they're not actually lethal in SR4 (for anyone who matters).
Suppressive fire does base damage. This is like saying a garrote of razor wire is not lethal. Placement is everything. Just like a wire is much more lethal if placed at chest level with a biker or that a telephone or electrical wire will bring down an apache helicopter where bullets won't. We are talking under normal situations not the logical fallacy of using exceptions to the rule.
I am saying wires shouldn't be lethal even to our lowly squatter threat rating of 1 or even 2. It is just enough to force them to retreat or find an alternate method around it.
If we want lethal then we go monowire or electrical fence which has been intentionally left off of this thread for damage.
And I'm saying, the only people in the game are player characters. That's not razor wire anymore, it's a garrote. Just ask SR4, see?
The point is you're addressing two problems: 'razorwire is too lethal in SR4' and 'razorwire is unrealistically non-disabling in SR4'. These are completely unrelated, and only the latter is a real problem, that's all.
And, again, +net hits is anything but an exception. It's the normal use case for that pistol's 5P.
That's not razor wire anymore, it's a garrote. Just ask SR4, see?The point is you're addressing two problems: 'razorwire is too lethal in SR4' and 'razorwire is unrealistically non-disabling in SR4'. These are completely unrelated, and only the latter is a real problem, that's all.
And, again, +net hits is anything but an exception. It's the normal use case for that pistol's 5P.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 10 2011, 05:44 PM)
And I'm saying, the only people in the game are player characters. That's not razor wire anymore, it's a garrote. Just ask SR4, see?
The point is you're addressing two problems: 'razorwire is too lethal in SR4' and 'razorwire is unrealistically non-disabling in SR4'. These are completely unrelated, and only the latter is a real problem, that's all.
And, again, +net hits is anything but an exception. It's the normal use case for that pistol's 5P.
That's not razor wire anymore, it's a garrote. Just ask SR4, see?The point is you're addressing two problems: 'razorwire is too lethal in SR4' and 'razorwire is unrealistically non-disabling in SR4'. These are completely unrelated, and only the latter is a real problem, that's all.
And, again, +net hits is anything but an exception. It's the normal use case for that pistol's 5P.
Both are base damage hence the lethality is the same.
And yes the world is populated by PCs and NPCs. Hence make it realistic within the boundaries of said universe. We are all willing to believe bullets are dangerous and squirrels are not. It doesn't mean we have safe bullets or dangerous squirrels in SR4, but it does mean that players and GMs should expect the world to work in the majority of instances with the same physics as our own with similar items.
Please give a reasonable answer to why identical wire in SR4 should be so extraordinarily lethal compared to the modern world?
Nope, bullets will have net hits.
It's not lethal in the slightest, because everyone should have armor above 5. I'm not arguing in favor of the RAW, nor that it should be lethal, so don't ask me to defend it. It's not my problem.
Ooh, maybe it's 5P +4 AP.
It's not lethal in the slightest, because everyone should have armor above 5. I'm not arguing in favor of the RAW, nor that it should be lethal, so don't ask me to defend it. It's not my problem.
Ooh, maybe it's 5P +4 AP.
Because death is cheap in Shadowrun, and corporate security designers don't give two figs about how lethal their systems are.
There's your reasonable answer.
There's your reasonable answer.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 10 2011, 06:17 PM)
Nope, bullets will have net hits.
It's not lethal in the slightest, because everyone should have armor above 5. I'm not arguing in favor of the RAW, nor that it should be lethal, so don't ask me to defend it. It's not my problem.
Ooh, maybe it's 5P +4 AP.
It's not lethal in the slightest, because everyone should have armor above 5. I'm not arguing in favor of the RAW, nor that it should be lethal, so don't ask me to defend it. It's not my problem.
Ooh, maybe it's 5P +4 AP.
We can't make assumptions that everyone has armor especially when situations may have less than 5 impact.
Again base damage is the same. See suppressive fire vs. concertina wire. Damage increase is situational.
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Feb 10 2011, 06:18 PM)
Because death is cheap in Shadowrun, and corporate security designers don't give two figs about how lethal their systems are.
There's your reasonable answer.
There's your reasonable answer.
Hence monowire and electrified fences. You haven't given a reasonable answer about barbed or razor wire.
I think you'll find that suppressive fire is the *special* case. :O Besides, most heavy pistols don't have FA.
I dunno about 'we', but I can make all kinds of assumptions. The point is, worry about your 'tanglefoot' rule, instead of the purely theoretical faceless masses dying of vicious SR4 razorwire cuts.
I dunno about 'we', but I can make all kinds of assumptions.
The point is, worry about your 'tanglefoot' rule, instead of the purely theoretical faceless masses dying of vicious SR4 razorwire cuts.
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Feb 10 2011, 08:34 PM)
Hence monowire and electrified fences. You haven't given a reasonable answer about barbed or razor wire.
Yes I have. Corporate security designers do not give two figs for how lethal their security systems are. That applies just as much to barbed and razor wire as it does to mono- and electric wire. In any case, monowire and electrified fences are expensive compared to normal barbed/razor wire. Everyone knows that all the megas care about is their bottom line. If they can have the lowest costs by combining the more lethal measures with upgraded run-of-the-mill stuff (i.e. more dangerous barbed wire than we have), they'll do it.
That does make sense. No reason to assume that SR4 razor wire is the cattle-fencing stuff of RL.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 10 2011, 06:50 PM)
That does make sense. No reason to assume that SR4 razor wire is the cattle-fencing stuff of RL.
Razor wire/concertina wire is the stuff the military uses not the cattle fencing you reference. Barbed wire has even less reason to be so damaging. Unless you drive into the wire it doesn't justify the damage.
So, you're saying that the razor wire of SR4 is *not* cattle fencing? Sounds like you agree with me, cuz that's exactly what I just said. You even quoted it.
Anyway, as I said: in 2070, it's all more damaging. I think Sephiroth said it twice, as well. Simple, elegant, perfect answer.
Anyway, as I said: in 2070, it's all more damaging. I think Sephiroth said it twice, as well. Simple, elegant, perfect answer.
It's all dikoted. /thread
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 10 2011, 06:48 PM)
It's all dikoted. /thread
We've put dikote on your dikote so you can dikote while you dikote.
I never got to play with dikote... 
That's just good parenting. You'd shoot your eye out.
No, I'd shoot someone else's eye out. And get paid for shooting them in the face.
QUOTE (CanRay @ Feb 10 2011, 07:57 PM)
No, I'd shoot someone else's eye out. And get paid for shooting them in the face.
The only good face shooting is a paid face shooting...
No, see, child labor laws.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 10 2011, 08:40 PM)
So, you're saying that the razor wire of SR4 is *not* cattle fencing? Sounds like you agree with me, cuz that's exactly what I just said. You even quoted it.
Anyway, as I said: in 2070, it's all more damaging. I think Sephiroth said it twice, as well. Simple, elegant, perfect answer.
Anyway, as I said: in 2070, it's all more damaging. I think Sephiroth said it twice, as well. Simple, elegant, perfect answer.
I am trying to correct you for using the terms interchangeably.
Barbed wire is used for cattle.
Concertina Wire is razor wire, which is used by mostly by military and security applications.
Have you seen Awakened cows?!?!
Barbed wire had better do that much damage or ol' Bessie is going to eat my barn!
Barbed wire had better do that much damage or ol' Bessie is going to eat my barn!
hell-bovine stampede!
Having extensive personal experience with razor wire, I would like to say that while extremely nasty it is far from lethal unless you do something extremely stupid and get extremely unlucky. I've actually fallen into a two-three-grabber before. That is two high, three wide, the staked out with twist and tension so that it tends to roll and twist if disturbed. Took nearly an hour to get me out and several hours with the medics getting all the wounds cleaned.
I actually didn't have a lot of cuts, just a heck of a lot of little punctures because I didn't thrash around after I was wrapped up. Most of the punctures actually happen while they were cutting me free, since every time you cut a strand while it is under tension, the whole mess twist and shifts.
I can tell you for a fact that the scars that form from cuts by it are very nasty if they get infected. Since it has a jerking twisting action and the blades work like plows if you struggle or it gets jerked hard, it will embed all kinds of nasty stuff to get infected in your body.
I actually didn't have a lot of cuts, just a heck of a lot of little punctures because I didn't thrash around after I was wrapped up. Most of the punctures actually happen while they were cutting me free, since every time you cut a strand while it is under tension, the whole mess twist and shifts.
I can tell you for a fact that the scars that form from cuts by it are very nasty if they get infected. Since it has a jerking twisting action and the blades work like plows if you struggle or it gets jerked hard, it will embed all kinds of nasty stuff to get infected in your body.
QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Feb 11 2011, 06:28 PM)
I would like to say that while extremely nasty it is far from lethal unless you do something extremely stupid and get extremely unlucky.
Stupidity and Bad Luck are the only things in the Universe that rival Hydrogen for amount.
And Stupidity is in the lead as it comes around the bend, it appears!
Stupidity should be far more painful and/or lethal than it is now, RL or otherwise.
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Feb 12 2011, 01:26 AM)
Stupidity should be far more painful and/or lethal than it is now, RL or otherwise.
Sometimes it is. Look at the Darwin Award Winners.
'Course, I've heard of at least one case where someone won a Darwin Award and survived.
Back in the early 80's my dad used to write a column called "Too Stupid to Live" for a paper in Mt. Pleasant. It would regale the good people of east Texas with things like asking whether the 300+ deaths on railways in Texas were the fault of the guy who tried to outrun the train or his buddy who bet him a beer he couldn't. Far too many involved people cleaning things with gasoline, but there was always copy.
I grew up with tons of those stories. Flash forward fifteen years and suddenly people are all gaga for something they call The Darwin Awards, with tales less funny and a name less clever.
Johnny come latelys to the morbid humor game, I say.
For the record, it's the guy who bet him's fault.
I grew up with tons of those stories. Flash forward fifteen years and suddenly people are all gaga for something they call The Darwin Awards, with tales less funny and a name less clever.
Johnny come latelys to the morbid humor game, I say.
For the record, it's the guy who bet him's fault.
I remember a story that was going around about a Russian that burned himself to death when he tried to thaw out his car by putting a can of burning gasoline under it.
Everyone made fun of it until a veteran pointed out that it was a technique used to thaw out the engines in Russian Tanks quite successfully during WWII.
Sometimes a little bit of knowledge is more dangerous than anything else...
Everyone made fun of it until a veteran pointed out that it was a technique used to thaw out the engines in Russian Tanks quite successfully during WWII.
Sometimes a little bit of knowledge is more dangerous than anything else...
And sometimes it causes double-posts.
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