One of the player's in my group insists on playing a psychic as a full mage complete with spirits. I have no idea where to start on creating the tradition.
For those that know, he wants one based off of a Space Marine Librarian from Warhammer 40K.
Can anyone help?
Full Version: Psionics in 4th
Steal the Buddhist tradition out of Street Magic.
You will, however, probably want a Spirit of Man in there somewhere. Probably combat.
You will, however, probably want a Spirit of Man in there somewhere. Probably combat.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 15 2011, 01:08 AM) 
Steal the Buddhist tradition out of Street Magic.
Not necessary. Digital Grimoire actually has a psionic tradition written up. It's a possession tradition.
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Feb 15 2011, 12:11 AM)
Not necessary. Digital Grimoire actually has a psionic tradition written up. It's a possession tradition.
I thought it was around somewhere, but I guess I don't have that book.
All traditions are the same thing. Choose possession/materialization, choose your drain stat, choose your spirits.
It's a PDF-only, it's just like 13 pages or so. It gives a couple new traditions, some new spells and adept powers, some tips for GM's on preventing possession abuse, and a couple other miscellaneous magic rules.
EDIT:For the OP's benefit:
Mechanical stuff is bolded.
EDIT:For the OP's benefit:
QUOTE (digital grimoire)
THE PSIONIC TRADITION
Concept: Psionics is the ability to tap the latent powers of
the metahuman mind and psyche and use them to directly effect
change in the world through concentrated force of will. The
psionic is a mentalist with the talent to manipulate the external
world through the innate powers of the metahuman mind.
Combat: Fire
Detection: Air
Health: Man
Illusion: Guide
Manipulation: Task
Drain: Willpower + Intuition
Note: Psionics is a Possession tradition
Awakened characters who believe their abilities to be purely
psionic in nature are rare in the Sixth World, however, they pose
a unique perspective on the nature of magic and may provide interesting
roleplaying opportunities for players and gamemasters
alike (p. 45, Street Magic). Most psionics consider the belief in
magic and the supernatural as mere superstition and mystoreligious
nonsense dressed up as pseudo-science and fueled by
yet-to-be-explained psychic and natural phenomena. For instance,
Conjuring is considered the shaping of autonomous psychic constructs
known as “thought forms.” To a psionic it is only natural
that mystics perceive them as spirits and attribute magical correspondences
to them since these are believed to distill aspects of
a psionic’s own psychic abilities (i.e. fire is linked to pyrokinesis,
air is linked to clairvoyance, etc.). Psionics, too, are capable of
“imprinting” and commanding such thought forms on the astral
plane—though depending on concentration and willpower of the
psionic, the thought form may be more or less capable of independent
action. In game terms, these incorporeal “thought forms”
are normal spirits that interact with the physical world through
possession (p. 101, Street Magic)—though psionics do not believe
in preparing vessels through enchanting.
Psionic characters are able to astrally perceive and project
(even to the metaplanes), use Counterspelling, create wards
(“mental shields,”) and may even use appropriate foci (i.e. crystals
to focus their mental energies, etc). The gamemaster and player
should discuss what spells are appropriate for the psionic character
given the character’s understanding of the forces at work.
Because a psionic believes that all of his energies are fueled from
within, these characters may not choose to take a Mentor Spirit.
As a guideline, spells should be restricted to abilities that could be
ascribed to “the power of the mind” and para-scientific paradigm
of psionic abilities. Note that traditionally, psionics encompasses
a wide range of abilities (such as telepathy, empathy, clairsentience,
telekinetics, pyrokinetics, cryokinetics, vitakinetics, to name but
a few), and this limitation can be as restrictive or flexible as necessary
to fit the style and setting of the game.
Alternatively, players wishing to create a psionic character
conforming to a more “classic” conception of mentalist—focusing
on his spell-like abilities and disregarding conjuring—have only
to create a magician character of the psionic tradition and take
the Aspected Magician (Sorcerer) Quality (p. 26, Street Magic)
to represent the limitations imposed by the character’s own beliefs.
Concept: Psionics is the ability to tap the latent powers of
the metahuman mind and psyche and use them to directly effect
change in the world through concentrated force of will. The
psionic is a mentalist with the talent to manipulate the external
world through the innate powers of the metahuman mind.
Combat: Fire
Detection: Air
Health: Man
Illusion: Guide
Manipulation: Task
Drain: Willpower + Intuition
Note: Psionics is a Possession tradition
Awakened characters who believe their abilities to be purely
psionic in nature are rare in the Sixth World, however, they pose
a unique perspective on the nature of magic and may provide interesting
roleplaying opportunities for players and gamemasters
alike (p. 45, Street Magic). Most psionics consider the belief in
magic and the supernatural as mere superstition and mystoreligious
nonsense dressed up as pseudo-science and fueled by
yet-to-be-explained psychic and natural phenomena. For instance,
Conjuring is considered the shaping of autonomous psychic constructs
known as “thought forms.” To a psionic it is only natural
that mystics perceive them as spirits and attribute magical correspondences
to them since these are believed to distill aspects of
a psionic’s own psychic abilities (i.e. fire is linked to pyrokinesis,
air is linked to clairvoyance, etc.). Psionics, too, are capable of
“imprinting” and commanding such thought forms on the astral
plane—though depending on concentration and willpower of the
psionic, the thought form may be more or less capable of independent
action. In game terms, these incorporeal “thought forms”
are normal spirits that interact with the physical world through
possession (p. 101, Street Magic)—though psionics do not believe
in preparing vessels through enchanting.
Psionic characters are able to astrally perceive and project
(even to the metaplanes), use Counterspelling, create wards
(“mental shields,”) and may even use appropriate foci (i.e. crystals
to focus their mental energies, etc). The gamemaster and player
should discuss what spells are appropriate for the psionic character
given the character’s understanding of the forces at work.
Because a psionic believes that all of his energies are fueled from
within, these characters may not choose to take a Mentor Spirit.
As a guideline, spells should be restricted to abilities that could be
ascribed to “the power of the mind” and para-scientific paradigm
of psionic abilities. Note that traditionally, psionics encompasses
a wide range of abilities (such as telepathy, empathy, clairsentience,
telekinetics, pyrokinetics, cryokinetics, vitakinetics, to name but
a few), and this limitation can be as restrictive or flexible as necessary
to fit the style and setting of the game.
Alternatively, players wishing to create a psionic character
conforming to a more “classic” conception of mentalist—focusing
on his spell-like abilities and disregarding conjuring—have only
to create a magician character of the psionic tradition and take
the Aspected Magician (Sorcerer) Quality (p. 26, Street Magic)
to represent the limitations imposed by the character’s own beliefs.
Mechanical stuff is bolded.
Not sure if this helps, but there's a little blurb about Psionics in SM, pg 45.
My initial take on a tradition:
Possession-based
Drain Stat: Logic
Spirits: Man, Task, Guidance, ?, ?
Mentor spirits:
Id: +2 combat spells, mage must role Will+Chr(3) to avoid entering a fight
Ego: +2 detection spells, +1 dodge rolls
Superego: +2 spirit of man, +2 personal health spells, -2 health spell on anyone else
My initial take on a tradition:
Possession-based
Drain Stat: Logic
Spirits: Man, Task, Guidance, ?, ?
Mentor spirits:
Id: +2 combat spells, mage must role Will+Chr(3) to avoid entering a fight
Ego: +2 detection spells, +1 dodge rolls
Superego: +2 spirit of man, +2 personal health spells, -2 health spell on anyone else
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Feb 15 2011, 12:11 AM)
Not necessary. Digital Grimoire actually has a psionic tradition written up. It's a possession tradition.
Looks like I'll have to go buy it. Thanks for the heads up.
Tell the character to be prepared to be ostracized and ridiculed. As mentioned in street magics, psionics are wrong. A tradition is a set of beliefs on how magic powers work, and psionics fail to explain the nature of the awakened world, and the effects of magical power. Corps have spent billions on testing, and have found that awakened parties do not have different brain chemistry or abilities from the non-awakened. In order to be a psionic, the character basically needs to ignore all the research and empirical data that has been discovered in favor of their flawed belief set that only exists because the character wants to feel different.
Not saying people like that don't exist, but thats the truth.
And psionics would NOT be a logic tradition, logical traditions care too much are metaphysics to believe in psionics. It would be intuition.
Not saying people like that don't exist, but thats the truth.
And psionics would NOT be a logic tradition, logical traditions care too much are metaphysics to believe in psionics. It would be intuition.
Yeah, could be. I'd always seen logic-based traditions as "Lawful", and intuition-based traditions as "Chaotic", if I can borrow some terms. Psionics seems more about self-control, discipline, and the like, and so logic based.
The Psionic tradition has been reprinted in the Anniversary edition Street Magic (the one with the orange cover). Spirits and Drain are exactly like Sephiroth's post, except that psionics are no longer bound by the bolded restrictions (they can, in fact, prepare vessels and take a mentor spirit).
Personally, I think a Psionic Tradition makes a lot of sense. As far as has been made clear, magic seems to be generated from life, channeled and controlled by the mind. Summoned spirits could very well just be energy imprinted by the summoner's psyche.
In a way, the Psionic Tradition is just a more hip, more crystals and less fantasy approach to the Hermetic Tradition.
In a way, the Psionic Tradition is just a more hip, more crystals and less fantasy approach to the Hermetic Tradition.
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Feb 15 2011, 04:35 AM)
Tell the character to be prepared to be ostracized and ridiculed. As mentioned in street magics, psionics are wrong. A tradition is a set of beliefs on how magic powers work, and psionics fail to explain the nature of the awakened world, and the effects of magical power. Corps have spent billions on testing, and have found that awakened parties do not have different brain chemistry or abilities from the non-awakened. In order to be a psionic, the character basically needs to ignore all the research and empirical data that has been discovered in favor of their flawed belief set that only exists because the character wants to feel different.
Not saying people like that don't exist, but thats the truth.
And psionics would NOT be a logic tradition, logical traditions care too much are metaphysics to believe in psionics. It would be intuition.
Not saying people like that don't exist, but thats the truth.
And psionics would NOT be a logic tradition, logical traditions care too much are metaphysics to believe in psionics. It would be intuition.
So, they are evolution denialists. Got it!
Aw, I was going to say vaccine denialists, but yours is good too.
The Delusion negative quality (from Augmentation) might go hand-in-hand with the Psionic tradition, given their beliefs.
QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Feb 15 2011, 09:14 AM)
The Delusion negative quality (from Augmentation) might go hand-in-hand with the Psionic tradition, given their beliefs.
my GM would give me no BP for that quality, as it comes with the tradition...but I'm with you: "There's no such thing as magic!!!"
QUOTE (Makki @ Feb 15 2011, 09:37 AM)
my GM would give me no BP for that quality, as it comes with the tradition...but I'm with you: "There's no such thing as magic!!!"
Harsh, considering his chosen stream comes with a built in penalty equivalent to the negative quality. Does being a Psionic mage still cost 15 BP in his game?
Johnny Carson immediately dispels any attempt by your psionic to use the Bend Spoon spell.
Psionics doesn't deny magic, mana, spirits etcetera - they just think the hermetic paradigm takes a hopelessly medieval approach to it.
It's perfectly doable to make a sensible psionic paradigm that accurately reflects fluff and rule descriptions of how magic works. Why would that be delusional? It's just modern.
Just because they'll be considered atheists, heretics etcetera doesn't mean their techniques wouldn't work just as well or even better, because they don't bother with medieval superstitions - superstitions developed by villagers during a Low Mana Cycle. What could those backwards idiots possibly know that's worth knowing?
Psionics has a huge pile of concepts and techniques to work with. Jungian Archetypes (Mentor spirits), mindfulness training, scientific method approach to trying out techniques and discovering what works, systematic measurements, kirlian photography (Assensing), dieting and so forth.
Psionics isn't the scary weird Tradition. That would be Dianetics.
It's perfectly doable to make a sensible psionic paradigm that accurately reflects fluff and rule descriptions of how magic works. Why would that be delusional? It's just modern.
Just because they'll be considered atheists, heretics etcetera doesn't mean their techniques wouldn't work just as well or even better, because they don't bother with medieval superstitions - superstitions developed by villagers during a Low Mana Cycle. What could those backwards idiots possibly know that's worth knowing?
Psionics has a huge pile of concepts and techniques to work with. Jungian Archetypes (Mentor spirits), mindfulness training, scientific method approach to trying out techniques and discovering what works, systematic measurements, kirlian photography (Assensing), dieting and so forth.
Psionics isn't the scary weird Tradition. That would be Dianetics.
QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Feb 15 2011, 09:51 AM)
Harsh, considering his chosen stream comes with a built in penalty equivalent to the negative quality. Does being a Psionic mage still cost 15 BP in his game?
sure. actually we have a psionic mystic adept (which is probably the most useful and fitting)
what do you guys seem fitting for Initiation?
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Feb 15 2011, 10:55 AM)
Psionics isn't the scary weird Tradition. That would be Dianetics.
Are you saying I couldn't play an OT 8 Scientologist mage?
Or are you saying that I can, but that he'd just be crazy as as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs and dynamite.
QUOTE (Fortinbras @ Feb 15 2011, 04:35 PM)
Are you saying I couldn't play an OT 8 Scientologist mage?
Or are you saying that I can, but that he'd just be crazy as as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs and dynamite.
Or are you saying that I can, but that he'd just be crazy as as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs and dynamite.
I think they have Intimidation as a Drain attribute
@Ascalaphus
The funny thing is, they are bound to work better over time.
The funny thing is, they are bound to work better over time.
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Feb 15 2011, 04:48 PM)
I think they have Intimidation as a Drain attribute
They don't take drain damage, Dianetics only drains credsticks
And if you need inspiration for psionics, in the Secrets of Power books Twist initially refuses to believe in magic and presents some explainations which sound psionic to me.
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Feb 15 2011, 03:27 AM)
The Psionic tradition has been reprinted in the Anniversary edition Street Magic (the one with the orange cover). Spirits and Drain are exactly like Sephiroth's post, except that psionics are no longer bound by the bolded restrictions (they can, in fact, prepare vessels and take a mentor spirit).
You are kidding, right?
About the reprint, i mean.
Given the guy I once saw play a mage with Metaphysical Solipsism as a tradition, Psionics really isn't that weird.
Beside, it's just an idea of how the own magic works.
"All that research corps did is well and good, but it's not my brain they cut open. Because mine is special. But really, all of these others might be able to be just as special, if they'd just do away with their silly superstitions."
Beside, it's just an idea of how the own magic works.
"All that research corps did is well and good, but it's not my brain they cut open. Because mine is special. But really, all of these others might be able to be just as special, if they'd just do away with their silly superstitions."
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Feb 15 2011, 12:11 AM)
Not necessary. Digital Grimoire actually has a psionic tradition written up. It's a possession tradition.
And a lame Tradition at that.
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Feb 15 2011, 02:35 AM)
Tell the character to be prepared to be ostracized and ridiculed. As mentioned in street magics, psionics are wrong.
Tell that to the Technomancer who, with nothing more than the power of his mind, can access the Matrix and run with the Hacker big dogs. Or how about this... with nothing more than the power of his mind can make his body move as fast as a mundane with level 3 Wired reflexes. Finally... a Technomancer's abilities work in Space.
Repeat after me: a Technomancer's abilities WORK IN SPACE!** Now OOB, how does this work? It's not magic because of the whole space thing, but psionics don't exist...
Honestly, I wrote up rules for Psionics and I had Tymeaus Jalynsfein look at them. So this isn't some un-beta'd fan wank. In fact, I made damn certain that they were not over powered, and I tried to make them have a different feel than magic, but I don't know how well I did.
If the OP (or anyone else) wants to see these rules then PM me and I'll send you a copy. If everyone wants to see a copy then PM me and I'll post them in this thread.
** == if someone has something that disputes this then please tell me which page.
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Feb 16 2011, 12:04 AM)
Repeat after me: a Technomancer's abilities WORK IN SPACE!**
Because everything gets better In Space.
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Feb 15 2011, 07:04 PM)
And a lame Tradition at that.
Tell that to the Technomancer who, with nothing more than the power of his mind, can access the Matrix and run with the Hacker big dogs. Or how about this... with nothing more than the power of his mind can make his body move as fast as a mundane with level 3 Wired reflexes. Finally... a Technomancer's abilities work in Space.
Tell that to the Technomancer who, with nothing more than the power of his mind, can access the Matrix and run with the Hacker big dogs. Or how about this... with nothing more than the power of his mind can make his body move as fast as a mundane with level 3 Wired reflexes. Finally... a Technomancer's abilities work in Space.
Problem is, Psionicists can't do what technomancers do and vice versa. At best, Psionicists can claim to know better than everyone else on the subject but they can't really prove it.
Anyway, I always figured Psionics failed as a mainstream tradition not due to the "mind over matter" thing being a bad notion-- it is after all, a painfully general concept-- but rather due to its audience and inflexibility. Basically, psionics was a theory, not a faith, and it appears to be a theory that was investigated by empirically minded groups who were not impressed when they kept insisting that all of this stuff is really powered by the brain and that mana storms, voids and leylines are a bunch of silly nonsense. It was a tradition that didn't roll with the punches and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a few magicians out there who are "psionicists" but have otherwise accepted the mana based theory of magical expression.
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Feb 15 2011, 10:55 AM)
Psionics doesn't deny magic, mana, spirits etcetera - they just think the hermetic paradigm takes a hopelessly medieval approach to it.
It's perfectly doable to make a sensible psionic paradigm that accurately reflects fluff and rule descriptions of how magic works. Why would that be delusional? It's just modern.
Just because they'll be considered atheists, heretics etcetera doesn't mean their techniques wouldn't work just as well or even better, because they don't bother with medieval superstitions - superstitions developed by villagers during a Low Mana Cycle. What could those backwards idiots possibly know that's worth knowing?
Psionics has a huge pile of concepts and techniques to work with. Jungian Archetypes (Mentor spirits), mindfulness training, scientific method approach to trying out techniques and discovering what works, systematic measurements, kirlian photography (Assensing), dieting and so forth.
Psionics isn't the scary weird Tradition. That would be Dianetics.
It's perfectly doable to make a sensible psionic paradigm that accurately reflects fluff and rule descriptions of how magic works. Why would that be delusional? It's just modern.
Just because they'll be considered atheists, heretics etcetera doesn't mean their techniques wouldn't work just as well or even better, because they don't bother with medieval superstitions - superstitions developed by villagers during a Low Mana Cycle. What could those backwards idiots possibly know that's worth knowing?
Psionics has a huge pile of concepts and techniques to work with. Jungian Archetypes (Mentor spirits), mindfulness training, scientific method approach to trying out techniques and discovering what works, systematic measurements, kirlian photography (Assensing), dieting and so forth.
Psionics isn't the scary weird Tradition. That would be Dianetics.
Umm, except traditionally Psionics was kinda dumb and they actually DID think you were limited to just their own noggin as a power source. Things like Cleansing and Mentor Spirits weren't an option for them because they didn't think mana was real and because they'd think that a Mentor spirit was just a figment. Look, I totally think it's fine to have a psionic paradigm as the base template for what a Magician does and that it'd be quite functional, but if that's so it's likely because a truly pragmatic Psionicist would recognize that a lot of their predecessors were mistaken in the past on many points. If the reprints have moved away from the "old" psionics though I'd consider that a good thing. I like the idea of psionics and it's silly to give the concept a bad rap just 'cuz the authors decided that most psionicists were super stubborn back in the 2030s and '40s or whatever.
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Feb 15 2011, 06:33 PM)
Because everything gets better In Space.
Take a mage into outer space and have him cast a spell. Mage dies... horribly. The Mana void snuffs his life force like a hurricane snuffs a candle.
Take a Technomancer on the exact same shuttle and have him access the Matrix or use his more esoteric abilities... no problem. His powers work quite well.
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 15 2011, 07:38 PM)
Problem is, Psionicists can't do what technomancers do and vice versa. At best, Psionicists can claim to know better than everyone else on the subject but they can't really prove it.
No, the mere presence of Technomancers proves that Psionics exist in the SR world, but they are mistaken for mages or some such.
Think about it. With a thought a psychokinetic can move objects. The mage does the same thing with a few mumbled words. NOTHING to differentiate them at all.
Except there's techniques for manipulating mana and they are observable to the Awakened. A psionicist cannot just up and move things without manipulating the mana that (hilariously) they don't really believe in.
Wouldn't it be easy to simply have a psionicist as one who cannot enchant or learn to deal with spirits. So simply take magician with aspected magician as a 5 point penalty. Allow them to only use sorcerer and astral aspects with any other aspect as -6 dice or even forbid it entirely. Or the player could simply take incompetent for all skills that are not related to the astral and sorcerer skills for magic.
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Feb 15 2011, 04:04 PM)
And a lame Tradition at that.
Tell that to the Technomancer who, with nothing more than the power of his mind, can access the Matrix and run with the Hacker big dogs. Or how about this... with nothing more than the power of his mind can make his body move as fast as a mundane with level 3 Wired reflexes. Finally... a Technomancer's abilities work in Space.
Repeat after me: a Technomancer's abilities WORK IN SPACE!** Now OOB, how does this work? It's not magic because of the whole space thing, but psionics don't exist...
Honestly, I wrote up rules for Psionics and I had Tymeaus Jalynsfein look at them. So this isn't some un-beta'd fan wank. In fact, I made damn certain that they were not over powered, and I tried to make them have a different feel than magic, but I don't know how well I did.
If the OP (or anyone else) wants to see these rules then PM me and I'll send you a copy. If everyone wants to see a copy then PM me and I'll post them in this thread.
** == if someone has something that disputes this then please tell me which page.
Tell that to the Technomancer who, with nothing more than the power of his mind, can access the Matrix and run with the Hacker big dogs. Or how about this... with nothing more than the power of his mind can make his body move as fast as a mundane with level 3 Wired reflexes. Finally... a Technomancer's abilities work in Space.
Repeat after me: a Technomancer's abilities WORK IN SPACE!** Now OOB, how does this work? It's not magic because of the whole space thing, but psionics don't exist...
Honestly, I wrote up rules for Psionics and I had Tymeaus Jalynsfein look at them. So this isn't some un-beta'd fan wank. In fact, I made damn certain that they were not over powered, and I tried to make them have a different feel than magic, but I don't know how well I did.
If the OP (or anyone else) wants to see these rules then PM me and I'll send you a copy. If everyone wants to see a copy then PM me and I'll post them in this thread.
** == if someone has something that disputes this then please tell me which page.
And they were actually quite nice... I like them...
Of course, I like me a Psionic Tradition as well. Magic is all about Paradigm. And Psionics are a Paradigm. Anything can be made to work, and work well, with a little thought and care.
I could see a technomancer believing their abilities are psionic, resonence is misunderstood, poorly researched, and hasn't left a large mark on society. Important to note though, resonance is not magic, technomancers have no access to the astral plane, or mana, and magic and resonence do not interact with eachother. Comparisons are silly.
The problem with psionics as magic is that it fails to explain the world, it fails to explain elves, trolls, dragons, free spirits, the ghost dance, mana storms, orichalcum, ghouls, insect spirits....the list goes on. A good tradition doesn't just need to explain how you personally can use magic, but how the world works. Psionics doesn't do that. It's a tradition followed by people who want to feel special and entitled, no matter what science says. And there is good magical science. Mages and especially chaos mages have learned alot about the workings of magic using valid scientific techniques.
The problem with psionics as magic is that it fails to explain the world, it fails to explain elves, trolls, dragons, free spirits, the ghost dance, mana storms, orichalcum, ghouls, insect spirits....the list goes on. A good tradition doesn't just need to explain how you personally can use magic, but how the world works. Psionics doesn't do that. It's a tradition followed by people who want to feel special and entitled, no matter what science says. And there is good magical science. Mages and especially chaos mages have learned alot about the workings of magic using valid scientific techniques.
Couldn't psionicists(?) believe that there is magic, but with a "that's not what I do!" kind of mindset? There could be a tradition that has a set of beliefs that are based on psionic-principles (or whatever), that purports to be a new way of doing things, parallel with magic. As TJ says, it's just a paradigm.
Since psionics really is magic, it's easy to wave any disputes away and say "It's magic!"
Since psionics really is magic, it's easy to wave any disputes away and say "It's magic!"
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Feb 16 2011, 04:04 AM)
Couldn't psionicists(?) believe that there is magic, but with a "that's not what I do!" kind of mindset? There could be a tradition that has a set of beliefs that are based on psionic-principles (or whatever), that purports to be a new way of doing things, parallel with magic. As TJ says, it's just a paradigm.
Since psionics really is magic, it's easy to wave any disputes away and say "It's magic!"
Since psionics really is magic, it's easy to wave any disputes away and say "It's magic!"
I can believe that I am immortal by account that I haven't died and others have. It doesn't make it true but I can believe it. I never said someone can't have a psionic tradition, I just said it will make you a ridiculed outsider because all current 2072 science says you are wrong.
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Feb 16 2011, 04:07 PM)
I can believe that I am immortal by account that I haven't died and others have. It doesn't make it true but I can believe it. I never said someone can't have a psionic tradition, I just said it will make you a ridiculed outsider because all current 2072 science says you are wrong.
No worries - re-reading this thread, it sounded like people were arguing against having psionics at all. My reading comprehension fail - I think I'm worked into an arguin' mood right now
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Feb 15 2011, 10:58 PM)
You are kidding, right?
About the reprint, i mean.
About the reprint, i mean.
Nope, it actually exists. They inserted some of the other Digital Grimoire stuff like the Egyptian tradition and Heightened Concentration as well.
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Feb 16 2011, 02:47 AM)
I could see a technomancer believing their abilities are psionic, resonence is misunderstood, poorly researched, and hasn't left a large mark on society. Important to note though, resonance is not magic, technomancers have no access to the astral plane, or mana, and magic and resonence do not interact with eachother. Comparisons are silly.
Except the fact that Resonance should only affect things in the Matrix. The fact that the Technomancer can push his body as fast as some slot with Wired Reflexes 3 means that it is something MORE that just Resonance, and since it works in space it is NOT magic.
I think that it is psionics that allows Technomancers to do what they do. Hopefully, when Catalyst loses the SR licence, the next owners of SR flesh this out a little more.
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 15 2011, 07:48 PM)
Except there's techniques for manipulating mana and they are observable to the Awakened. A psionicist cannot just up and move things without manipulating the mana that (hilariously) they don't really believe in.
Isn't this is what Masking is for? Doesn't masking make it harder for the bad guys to know that you are a mage and that you just flung some bad juju at them?
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Feb 16 2011, 05:07 PM)
Except the fact that Resonance should only affect things in the Matrix. The fact that the Technomancer can push his body as fast as some slot with Wired Reflexes 3 means that it is something MORE that just Resonance
Should it? Does it? Says who, on what bases?
Resonance is a new, barely researched, and very badly understood phenomenon. There's no telling what it might do. Just what we know it can.
Plus, what we know it can do is make a body-mind-machine interface. A TM gets physical damage from Black Hammer like everyone else.
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Feb 15 2011, 05:04 PM)
Tell that to the Technomancer who, with nothing more than the power of his mind, can access the Matrix and run with the Hacker big dogs. Or how about this... with nothing more than the power of his mind can make his body move as fast as a mundane with level 3 Wired reflexes
Most of your stuff is your own opinion and is fine, this part is flat out wrong and I'm tired of people enterpreting it flat out wrong because it's used by the folks who are convinced that Techno's are OP.
QUOTE ("Unwired")
This allows her to use her Matrix
Initiative and Initiative Passes in meat space, though she cannot
use more Initiative Passes on real-world actions than she usually
would, based on her normal Initiative Passes. Remaining IPs must
be spent on Matrix actions only.
Initiative and Initiative Passes in meat space, though she cannot
use more Initiative Passes on real-world actions than she usually
would, based on her normal Initiative Passes. Remaining IPs must
be spent on Matrix actions only.
A technomancer with mesh reality does not increase their meatspace speed, they can just perform matrix actions concurrent with their meatspace ones (a damn cool ability). So please make a tent pole argument wherever you wish but here.
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Feb 16 2011, 09:32 AM)
Most of your stuff is your own opinion and is fine, this part is flat out wrong and I'm tired of people enterpreting it flat out wrong because it's used by the folks who are convinced that Techno's are OP.
A technomancer with mesh reality does not increase their meatspace speed, they can just perform matrix actions concurrent with their meatspace ones (a damn cool ability). So please make a tent pole argument wherever you wish but here.
A technomancer with mesh reality does not increase their meatspace speed, they can just perform matrix actions concurrent with their meatspace ones (a damn cool ability). So please make a tent pole argument wherever you wish but here.
BUT, He is not talking about Mesh Reality, Though, he is describing Acceleration...
QUOTE
Unwired (Page 147)...
Acceleration
Prerequisite: Biowire
This advanced echo reinforces the technomancer’s neural structures to accelerate his neural pulse rate, decreasing the amount
of time required for an electric signal to traverse the distance. This acceleration confers a bonus of +1 Reaction (counts as an augmentation bonus) and +1 Initiative Pass for real-world actions. This echo can be taken up to three times for a cumulative effect.
Acceleration
Prerequisite: Biowire
This advanced echo reinforces the technomancer’s neural structures to accelerate his neural pulse rate, decreasing the amount
of time required for an electric signal to traverse the distance. This acceleration confers a bonus of +1 Reaction (counts as an augmentation bonus) and +1 Initiative Pass for real-world actions. This echo can be taken up to three times for a cumulative effect.
So... it is not his fevered imagination that he is referring to, but an actual rule in the book... Mesh Reality allows the Technomancer who has 5 passes in the Matrix to mingle them simultaneously, which is a whole level of Cool different.
Masking is a nice trick and it can help if someone's assensing you, but that really only covers when you're laying low, not when you're actively demonstrating your abilities. Admittedly, I do think it'd be possible to slide some magic past an unprepared or inexperienced Awakened observer. But, ideally, to perform magic without another skilled initiate being able to detect that it is magic being done while in their presence you'd have to have Flexible Signature, Masking and enough Initiate grades to beat the Assensing while having a flexible enough signature to keep from just plain putting down a magical thumbprint while still casting at a high enough force to have the hits to beat an observer's counterspelling. And even then there's still Magic Sense to get by plus the inability to cast in sufficient background count that is a problem. A psionicist trying to prove that they are independent from external mana as a power source just like TMs doesn't really have a good answer if someone asks them to prove that they still have abilities inside a mana void.
Remember, TMs and magical theory both fall under the category of serious business in the SR world. People who claim TM like abilities have faced some serious scrutiny, much of it magical. If some joker really has enough mojo to convincingly make the case that he's doing this stuff with just his noggin and not with ambient mana as per modern thaumaturgy, he'd get some notice. And at that point it'd likely just take a visit it from Professor Schwartzkopf to blow the guy's cover. Psionicists claiming that they use what TMs use rather than being "standard" Awakened sounds like an interesting plot hook or fluff event, but not something would really hold up over serious scrutiny.
Remember, TMs and magical theory both fall under the category of serious business in the SR world. People who claim TM like abilities have faced some serious scrutiny, much of it magical. If some joker really has enough mojo to convincingly make the case that he's doing this stuff with just his noggin and not with ambient mana as per modern thaumaturgy, he'd get some notice. And at that point it'd likely just take a visit it from Professor Schwartzkopf to blow the guy's cover. Psionicists claiming that they use what TMs use rather than being "standard" Awakened sounds like an interesting plot hook or fluff event, but not something would really hold up over serious scrutiny.
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Feb 16 2011, 01:46 AM)
Think about it. With a thought a psychokinetic can move objects. The mage does the same thing with a few mumbled words.
That's like claiming a relay powers a lightbulb with its clicking sound. Shadowrun magic is explained by the mage manipulating the flow of Mana around him (kinda like the old aether hypothesis), whereas psionics believe that their brain literally radiates some kind of energy which acts upon objects. And just like research into relativity made anyone but a few cranks abandon "luminous aether" IRL, the scientific research into mana in the 6th World has turned Psionics into a silly notion.
RE Accelaration, Technos do have some mutation of their neural system...
But mana is generated by life, and controlled by the mind. Doesn't seem all that different from psionics to me.
You seem to keep conflating your image of psionics the general concept with what psionics the-painfully-dumb-shadowrun-theory is. I do prefer a sixth world where psionicists just have a different explanation for what mana is over one where they're sticking thumbs in their ears though, so I approach things the same way, in effect.
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 16 2011, 12:12 PM)
Masking is a nice trick and it can help if someone's assensing you, but that really only covers when you're laying low, not when you're actively demonstrating your abilities.
Oh, I thought it could make it harder to detect you using mojo. My bad.
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 16 2011, 12:12 PM)
Psionicists claiming that they use what TMs use rather than being "standard" Awakened sounds like an interesting plot hook or fluff event, but not something would really hold up over serious scrutiny.
Unless Psionic abilities really existed (Technomancers) and they could use their abilities in Space (the ultimate Mana Void)
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 16 2011, 12:20 PM)
RE Accelaration, Technos do have some mutation of their neural system...
What about the ability to draw someone who has NO cyber (or hell... NO equipment) into the Matrix? I might be able to understand a "mutation", but this ability? How do you explain it?
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Feb 16 2011, 11:22 AM)
A TM gets physical damage from Black Hammer like everyone else.
That's because they are always running HotSIM. If your hacker was always running HotSIM, then he would have the same problem.
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Feb 16 2011, 11:22 AM)
A TM gets physical damage from Black Hammer like everyone else.
A TM takes physical damage (by which I mean, damage which is physically manifested: stun) from Attack programs.
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Feb 16 2011, 03:03 PM)
Unless Psionic abilities really existed (Technomancers) and they could use their abilities in Space (the ultimate Mana Void)
I get the impression that we're talking past eachother here. Yeah, psionics the broad concept includes technomancers. Insofar that psionics means inducing supernatural phenomena with psychic abilities, all traditions can be said to be psionic. However, the Psionic tradition has its own practices and tenants that do not offer any real insight into how to do what Technomancers do. Hell, it's apparently been found wanting in describing how stuff it can affect works. So while a Technomancer may start calling himself a psionicist for whatever reason, I don't see how that would do much to legitimize psionic practitioners that obviously can't do the same stuff. TMs certainly muddied the waters, but Psionicists still assense, cast and project like magicians, so people call them magicians. I guess they could try claiming otherwise but I'd think the magical establishment would call bullshit on them pretty fast.
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 16 2011, 02:17 PM)
I get the impression that we're talking past eachother here. Yeah, psionics the broad concept includes technomancers. Insofar that psionics means inducing supernatural phenomena with psychic abilities, all traditions can be said to be psionic.
We are talking past each other. When I say Psionics, I mean psychic phenomena that is separate from the Mana stream, just like a Technomancer's abilities are separate from the Mana stream.
The Psionic magic tradition is one big flaming pile of bullshit, with a nice vomit crust.
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