I was putting thought into the problem of overlapping biometrics on SINs. I mean, if you have a SIN but your prints don’t match, what good is it, right? But that assumes every ID Scan is predicated on a full-Matrix search. But despite the blinding speed of the wireless Matrix 2.0, the amount of data is growing at a geometric rate simultaneously. That means detailed searches take time. So if you present an ID the thing probably just checks the LISTED database to see if the biometrics you present a) match the ID and b) match the data on whatever server that ID is SUPPOSED to be tied to. After all, time is money, and the 6^th World of the 2070s is corporate driven. I can’t see people wasting time to sweep the web, plus that would require access to many private databases. Police units could do it, too, but for a routine stop it’s redundant. Realistically, the police are like the locks on your car: they’re there mostly to keep the honest people honest. So too are most ID Checks. If you match your presented / broadcasted ID and that ID matches the data stored on the server like it’s supposed to, that means you’re legit, right? Unless there’s real reason to suspect otherwise of course, and you’ve got the means to do that bigger search.

Thoughts? Agreement or disagreement?

-Kerenshara

You could also make the prints slightly off, so that they will register as close enough to be a match with your own, but are as different as possible from others you are using, if you know what I mean.

But yeah, digging really deep will probably get you somewhere eventually, but it takes a lot of time and dedication. Not something you do unless it is absolutely crucial. Same with face recognition and stuff like that.

Bye
Thanee

Agreed.
Most biometrics data isn't truly unique to begin with. The larger the system becomes, the bigger the chance of overlaps. Especially where just one piece of biometric data is measured.
Also, most corps or other entities shouldn't have the means to do an actual indepth search into SIN data on anything but own SINs. I tend to think of their inquiries as "hey Corp X, does this biometric match the data you have on SIN Y?" rather than going "what's the full width and breadth of information you have on SIN Y?" as most corps would refuse to hand this out.

Agreed. I have one set of fingerprints, but three SINs. My commlink is set up with my current identity. I need to, say, validate payment at the Stuffer Shack. I use my biometric ID and swipe my finger on the scanner (after perhaps blasting it with some disinfectant). The till compares the two bits of info I'm giving it: a fingerprint, and a SIN. It finds a match, authenticates my purchases, and spits out a receipt. Done.

Should I, for whatever reason, end up cooling my heels in a cell while my biometric profile is run through a Lone Star ident verifier, I may end up in trouble. It will link me to my current identity. That's not so much the issue. It may link to my other two SINs. That's where it becomes a problem.

The question, therefore, is how easy it is to work backwards from biometric data only (face, fingerprints, blood type) and find a named identity. I would say it is difficult, but not impossible. It depends on how much time and effort they're willing to expend scanning for traces of alternative identities that may or may not exist, or in other words, how much you aggravate the Star.

EDIT:

And that's without going into the natural segregation of data that occurs when law enforcement is just another corporation, rather than a branch of the government, and is thus even more constrained in its dealings with other corporate entities that may want to protect the privacy of their employees and clients by restricting access to said data. Sure, Aztechnology might have you down to a ritual sample, but without something to persuade them to pony up, they're just going to give the Star the middle finger when asked.

I think other SINs turning up in a search would depend a lot on what organization issued the SIN and what one is checking.

• KE as the LEO in Seattle would have access to the Ares and the UCAS databases, able to cross refference it's findings and perform full searches on those networks.
• KE on Ares property would only have legal access to Ares databases for in depth searches.
• KE as the Seattle LEO would only be able to get a verification from an Aztecnology database, telling if the SIN in question is good or fake, has the cred for the soykaf, etc. Searching the rest of the Aztec database for biometerics they will have to file some paperwork and go though the system, a lengthy process I'd imagine, especially as Aztec might just enjoy slowing down buisness for KE.

So like this, you get busted in Seattle by KE you can expect your UCAS and Ares SINs to be found on an in-depth search, any others are in the clear.

At least, that's how I see it. I don't actually KNOW how the SIN databases are organized, this just makes sense to me.

This is one of those "icky" issues I have also come up in game.

Enforce it too harshly fluff-wise, and SIN's become a lot less useful.
Don't enforce it, and the game looses... a very nice touch in cool factor.

This may be going another way, for your question, but what I do is throw the description of what a rating X SIN contains. I simply assume the higher rating ones are made in such a way that overlaps don't happen... because. Yes, because.

Now I do interpret the failure of lower rating SIN's as biometric leading to other SIN's. Depending on the glitch, I may invalidate anotehr SIn as well, from the character. However know that it can happen via legal SIN's,a nd being a lawyer I can tell you that in a justice system, stuff like this may happen but not necessarily means its an immediate felony or crime. It may lead to investigation on the authorities part, to verify where the mistake happened. This may lead to problems with authorities or not. It happened to a friend of mine, she got it sorted out, once they verified hes I.D was legit.

For a change of pace, make a friendly,m honest visit form the authorities, claiming that they want to interview that Runner -whom they think is an honest citizen- to pretoect his I.D from the professional forger X. They have tracked him and are on the verge of making an arrest, apparently this forger's SIN has shown up in illegal places, made false purchases, etc and its biometric data is similar, or the same as the Runner's one.

Then make sure the runner finds out, he is the one doing those things on that SIN and the alleged "forger" is an honest citizen... What will the team do?

Fingerprint patterning works on a variety of "Markers" that are compared against each other. If you move the ridges just a smidgen this way and that outside of those markers... That should be enough to have "Probable Doubt" available for your Lawyer.

You, um, DID take a Lawyer as a Contact, didn't you?

AZT wouldn't give that clearance short of a Corp Court order. Ever. They might give KE a "give us what you have and we'll run it through our system." With no guarantees of answer, of course.

RC covers these kinds of issues nicely. While yes there is enough information out there to discover your SINs are false, there is so much information, owned by so many different people that it is unlikely to matter unless you do something stupid.

As mentioned though, it is smart to never have more than one SIN for any one country/corp with your biometric data at a time.

Luckily, there's lots of countries out there.

"So you're from Cape Town?" "Yes." "You don't look African." "*Sighs* There are a LOT of Caucasians in Cape Town. Look it up." "*Hands flip around* Oh, yes, there is. Sorry about that. Nazis?" "We were a bloody British Colony!" "Oh."

Sounds like the mix up of Murdock's and BA's IDs in the A-Team movie.

A couple of ranks in social and language skills can never hurt

Most important contacts for a shadowrunner...

Mr. Johnson
Fixer
Lawyer

Bye
Thanee

Trying again, from the mobile...

Once your SIN is associated with a crime, I would imagine the biometric evidence would be checked for possible hits on alternate identities. Fake ID is hardly a new or secret idea.

The more you allow this, the less plausible will working fake SINs with biometric data will be. If you start checking the SIN database for matching biometrics, you can start forgetting about the whole thing. Balkanization and general laziness accounts only for so much. Now imagine if there were software to convert moving pictures into biometric data. Matrixx connected cameras havce just become a whole lot more dangerous to runners.

All the more reason to take "Erased" in my mind.

This is also the rationale that I give for a lot of 'Runners that want to get out of the Shadows to be unable to take the SIN Amnesty was the fact that their DNA/Fingerprints were on file as "Unknown" in open criminal cases.

Fair point. Though I'm not ruling it out entirely...kill too many presidents, and someone will start running a reverse biometric lookup on you...and spirits help you when they catch up.

Nanopaste disguises become that much more popular. Even just minor changes to a face, enough to throw off biometric facial recognition software can be a great boon!

As for things like height and limb length and so on, that's more difficult, but I think wouldn't be common enough to be allowed in a court of law. Gait, however, might. (I know people can ID me from my walk. Freaked the hell out of one teacher in an exam after I shaved my beard for finals.).

Getting absolute and precise measurements would be problematic in order to establish an absolute match, thought it COULD be used to EXCLUDE a bunch of people (read: narrow the field of suspects).

Gait's an interesting thing. I've been able to pull that trick myself since I was... well, let's say a long time. On the other hand, gait is something that CAN be trained. It's difficult, but quite doable, and requires the "actor" to remain focused before they slipped back into their natural gait. On the other hand, that's the kind of thing a government "secret agent" would have pounded into them, along with remembering no to turn around for their real name and always turning for their current alias. Effectively, it's a very deep impersonation of somebody who does not actually exist. Another thing the ladies can pull quite easily to throw that one off is change their shoes. Go from a flat to a platform to a stiletto heel and you've dramatically altered your gait... then you just hope they haven't recorded you in each frame of reference sometime prior.

Another thing to note: NanoCyberware has a detection threshold that is one higher than normal 'ware of it's type for scanners, and you have to be specifically looking for NanoCyberware - AND it never counts against the "bonus for tons of chrome" total, so each system has to scan separately. Get checked into a high level hospital and you're probably hosed, but the LS/KE on the street isn't going to have a lot of chance to spot it. I mention that because of the Nano-Retinal Adjusters and Nano-Handprint Adjusters which help things tremendously. Ordinarily you can't have better than AlphaWare to start, but that neat advantage for 5BP says you can have one piece of equipment up to 20 Availability. A lenient GM (who likes your back story) might just be convinced that since the "Availability" of a Delta Clinic is 18, and the Grade of an implant does not affect the Availability of the implant ITSELF, then your "special" item might be access to having the better stuff implanted... even if it DOES eat up most of you starting Nuyen because they are both relatively inexpensive and COULD be worked in. Even better, the rating of the implant in those cases doesn't affect the availability either, just the cost. So you could wind up with Rating 6 fake prints and retinas that are unique AND match your various SINs and the 'ware would be threshold 6 to find (Delta 5 +1 for NanoCyberware). I'm very much looking forward to Spy Games because I expect a LOT of time to be focused both in fluff and Crunchy Bitz^TM because it's so integral to espionage if you need to physically gain access.

-Kerenshara

Just to throw a tin of gas with a hand grenade atttached to the fire...

Gait analysis may be useful for individual recognition, but not necessarily enough to be accepted as a legal proof of identity. These are two different things. Very different. Per the first, security companies use it as a tool. Per the second, if that's all you have against someone, your case is damned. Think "The Usual Suspects".
On the other hand I know some magic spells -mind probe, detect truth- are not allowed as incriminating evidence in a UCAS court of law (Wow, there are still courts with that name... just WOW!), at least per Grimoire book in second edition.
It may have changed.

It hasn't. It was a major kerfuffle during the Dunkie Assassination Investigation as well, as the FBI used them on people without their knowledge or permission. But, well, the First Dragon just got offed, so... Yeah, a lot of rules went out the window.

Gait Analysis can also get screwed up by training. Military personnel tend to have very similar walking patterns. (My own personal style is actually based off a bastardization of the "Soldier's Walk" that my Grandfather passed to his sons and daughter, and I learned from Dad. A minimum of motion for a maximum of pace. I just can't do lockstep without consciously thinking it.). Injuries will also throw it off, even temporary ones.

But, again, that's not going to stop Megas from using it against you anyhow. And "Not legally admissable in the UCAS Court of Law" doesn't mean squat in "MCT Kangaroo Court of Pound-You-Up-The-Hoop". Aztechnology will just sacrifice you to their bloodthirsty Gods, and have a court case after the fact.

Absolute agreement on the social and language skills - LEOs (Law Enforcement Officers) don't really check everybody for everything; They are trained to profile for trouble makers. (Incidentally, the idea of telling officers they can't "Racially Profile" people is hogwash - it's part of their job. Anybody who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves or just doesn't have a clue.)

So if you are acting nervous, that will ALWAYS attract their attention. (Same goes for bodyguards, by the way.) If you look like the rest of the crowd in terms of general dress and demeanor, you won't get that second glance that frequently gets their notice. DO NOT cross the street once you see them coming - if they see you look at them and cross, you're suddenly a "Person of Interest". "Then why did you run, citizen?" Same goes for being overcautious when you see the cruiser in your rear-view mirror. Drop 5 below the speed limit and he starts looking a lot closer at tags, stickers, lights and anything else that might be a reason for you to be worried. LEOs can't be hyper-vigilant for everything all the time. Now, in a lot of cases, cameras in cruisers or tied to a video link can run face recognition if they're looking for a particular vehicle or perp, but again: if they aren't already looking for YOU to begin with, they won't turn the tools your way UNLESS YOU GIVE THEM A REASON TO BE SUSPICIOUS. People are people, which means even the best can get mentally lazy and fall into patterns and habits.

For those who want a funnier example, think of Jay's trip to the shooting range in Men in Black: "Eight year old white girl, nightime, middle of the ghetto with quantum physics books? Those books are WAY too advanced for her. She about to start something, so I'd appreciate it if ya' ease off m'back about it... or do I owe her a' apology?"

Oh, and one last thought Dakka Dakka: Are you SERIOUSLY admitting to to having WATCHED that movie?!

-Kerenshara

Racial Profiling is a hot button position for media, rather than law enforcement. However, all it takes is one REMF to screw that up royally.

And, yes, there's REMFs on the Police Forces as well as in the Military.

I always look it on the other way around: Sin systems verifications have ratings too. It helps sins (and fake sins) became more tangible, hardware wise. I tend to think of Fake SIN in the following way: The better the SIN, more information it has about you, but also makes it harder to verify due to data balkanization and other issue. For example.

A Stuffer Shack probably just needs a basic 'valid' SIN number and password for authentication.. After all, who cares where your credit comes from as long as you have the nuyen for a sandwich? I really don't see people using eye-scanners to get junk food... That would be a Level 01 System scanners. Any runner should be able to fool those.

A level 3 Scanner would probably use your fingerprint added to that number and code. That info would not be available in a level 2 SIN, probably, of it is, probably won't match.

A level 6 Scanner would use your retina, fingerprints and voice as SIN redundancies. You better have those on the Database.

With a proper legwork, it allows runners to desguise themselves as a person, stealing her SIN temporarily in the lower levels of checking.

And it also allows players to recognize SIN systems by sight. Useful Skill to have! "Oh no, not a DNA scan AGAIN..."

As a matter of fact I do. It was good silly fun.

What's wrong with the A-Team movie? It's campy fun.

I mean I know most people panned the second Matrix movie, but the fight with Neo vs Agent Smith (and Smith, and Smith, etc, etc) was damn cool.

I use that fight scene to explain to idio... I mean, the non-computer savvy how a DDoS attack happens.

OK, I guess maybe I'll try to carve out the time, after all... I used to love the TV show when I was a LOT younger. The commercials made it look SO bad... but then again the G.I. Joe movie was complete schlock brain candy, too... with some ammusing Shadowrun imagery.

-Kerenshara

Ooooh, hadn't thought of that one. Most of the people I hang out with are more savvy than that, but I can think of a few times that comparison might have been handy. Thanks!

-Kerenshara

I worked tech support, I had to explain things to the non-tech savvy often.

Now, if you excuse me, the memories are coming back, and my corner looks so comfortable to curl up in, rock back and forth, and gibber madly.

Tech support isn't JUST limited to explaining to idiots on the phone why their gear is jacked up (usually: did you turn it on? Did you follow the instructions? Then why the *#($ are you CALLING ME!?); the harder part is the IN-HOUSE "customers" who might, I don't know, sign your yearly review or your paystub. 30% of my team is out on disability right now for stress-related problems after Management's last brainstorm. I go back tomorrow, and I hear the fixed part of it in my absence, but I don't hold a lot of hope. In the same time I was out, the OTHER half the department had 25% of their team put in their 2-weeks-notice.

Tell the choir of The Truth, brotha CanRay!

*Snicker*

-Kerenshara

Let's just say my comments about being in the corner curled up and sobbing aren't exactly completely humor in nature, and leave it at that.

I got out of THAT rat race... THANK GOD!

I'm in a Medical Lab Tech program. I can have fun with computers and not have to worry about dealing with ID 10 T errors.

@Kerenshara, CanRay and allt hsoe who are tech savvy and work in tech support.

I am your worst nightmare. I am the gum in your hair. I am mustard in your hot pants. I am that piece of meat stuck between your teeth that refuses to be brushed off.

I suffer the computer illiterate flaw IRL, I couldn't care less about DDoS attacks and details like that. Well, I am interested in an academic general sort of way. Not in the least to learn how to avoid them. I'd hire someone like you guys for that... AND gremlins at rating 4 or so.

To illustrate----> As I walk, public lamposts go black. When I touch computers, bad things happen.

One time I was using a friend's computer. Nothing relevant, just some Star Wars: Dark Forces FPS innocent fun. Suddenly, computer screen goes black and refuses to turn on again (Yes I disconnected and reconnected the power, and proceeded to reset, ctrl+alt+del, and all thos etricks, none of them worked). I told my friend, he was puzzled. When I left the room for a glass of water in the kitchen, the computer started working again.

In the kitchen, the lightbulb started to wink out, and something started to burn. Turns out his mother had left the rice pot -plastic one- on top of one of the electric grills. However the power was supposedly off, it turns out it was hot actually and the plastic almost caught fire.

My friends always keep me away from their technological devices.

*Snickers at CanRay's dark corner*

Chummer, you can log into a BBS and are both literate and have an email account if they allowed you to set up here. You also know how to access it and click a hyper link... and follow simple instructions for pouring urine out of a boot if they're printed on the bottom of the heel.

You are NOT our worst nightmare.

*smirk*

-Kerenshara

BBS?

And yes that is an honest question. I suppose I know how to do it, since you say I am able to. I just don't know what that means.

Forums? Similar?

But I guess you are right. There's probably worse out there.

BBS = Bulletin Board System, kind of a combination of forum and file sharing site for the dial-up days, pre-Internet.

Forums are sometimes called BBSes by old skool folks like Kerenshara and myself. It's not exactly correct, a rare example of computer techs being inaccurate in statements about computer topics, but it's a sign of the Old Guard.

And, yes, there are a lot worse out there.

Oh, c'mon! Why do we still call them "boards"? And the word "forum" implies a connotation of mature discourse. Really?

*chuckles*

There are times I expect to see a new smiley of a simian mamal slinging semi-solid excrement!

-Kerenshara

There's a vomit smiley... It's quite fun for expressing your disgust.

Check out the smileies you can use on DevinatArt sometime...

*Points to the thread on "Talent over Warez" where I mixed up "Font" and "Script"* And yes now I feel like Joe Shadowrunner with minumim Matrix skills talking about Hacking with proficient hackers in Shadowland.

I get to play the matrix ignorant mage in your games Kernshara and CanRay?

Edit: Thanks for the clarification on BBS.

No problem.

*Sings in the key of off* "The more you know!!!"

Regarding Gait Analysis:
..You mean not everyone changes theirs as the situation calls for it?
For serious- I learned at a young age to adjust the way I walk so that people wouldn't pay attention to me- blending in with a crowd, or in the case of a less populated area, simply making certain I walked as if I knew where I was going and had something to do.

That would be using the Disguise skill, IMO.

You forgot the part where, apparently years ago, since he mentioned Dark Forces (how I miss thee...) when the monitor blinked out to try both reconnecting power and restarting the computer. That is MILES above the usual PEBKAC problems.

BBS? Silly USENet...

And the Wireless Age has given use the Second Eternal September...

I learned, at a young age, to adjust the way I walk so that people would pay attention to me.
Thanks, Monty Python!

Oh Ministry of Silly Walks; Where would we be without you as a society?

A lot poorer in culture.

And now for something completely different.

If you like, you're more than welcome to.

In point of face, the character of Kerenshara is Incompetent at Hacking Skill. An old teammate TRIED to teach her and gave up in frustration. If I'd felt Cheesey, I'd have given her the same with Cybercombat. Electronic Warfare she has a little need for using a radio in an adverse environment ("Can you hear me now?") so I let that alone. When she needs some hacking done, she has to rely on a specialist or canned routines (read: Agents).

-Kerenshara

Erased is only so good. If your a primary suspect in an active investigation you thknk the handling detective is just going to say ohh bummer that data I had on that guy just disappeared I guess I can' solve the case. Or will he just rework it all and back it up to a self contained data storage unit and continue on. Don't think just because you have the erased quality that allows you carte blanch to run amok. After all you're probably not the only person in the world with the erased quality and I'm sure experianced detectives have dealt with the issue before and have protocols to pretect against it when it arises.