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Machiavelli
If you Surge with the Dermal Alteration (Granite Skin) and have the drake quality, would you, if you GM allow it to stack?
James McMurray
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Mar 11 2011, 12:26 PM) *
If you Surge with the Dermal Alteration (Granite Skin) and have the drake quality, would you, if you GM allow it to stack?


Yes, though I'd point out them that 3 armor is probably a really bad way to spend 15 BP, especially since it doesn't stack with an armored vest. Sure, they end up with 7 hardened armor, but that's laughably easy to penetrate. Almost any kind of burst fire, anything the size of an assault rifle (or larger), or any kind of elemental effect is going to ignore it completely. Even some shmoe with a pistol and 3 successes will ignore it. And when it does get penetrated, you've got Body + 7 dice to soak with so you're screwed.
Draco18s
Then they become a mysitc adept and spend about half their PP on the Mystic Armor adept power, granting them more levels of normal (non-hardened) armor.

Basically, they'd still suck in comparison to spending that BP elsewhere.

Drakes are not combat monsters, even though by fluff they probably should be.

QUOTE
especially since it doesn't stack with an armored vest.


Drakes don't get their drake armor in metahuman form and can't wear metahuman armor in drake form. wink.gif
James McMurray
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 11 2011, 01:23 PM) *
Drakes don't get their drake armor in metahuman form and can't wear metahuman armor in drake form. wink.gif


Unless I'm missing something, the 3 armor I was talking about is not specific to the drake form. When in human form you'll still have 3 hardened armor (which is a joke), but as soon as you put on a lined coat your 15 BP expenditure fades away.
Draco18s
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Mar 11 2011, 12:31 PM) *
Unless I'm missing something, the 3 armor I was talking about is not specific to the drake form.


You are correct, but the other 4 armor is specific to the drake form. So the 7 armor calculation is only half of the equation.
pbangarth
While the level of hardened armor provided by being a Drake is low, it should be noted that burst fire modifiers in particular do not count for comparing DV against hardened armor.
James McMurray
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 11 2011, 01:47 PM) *
While the level of hardened armor provided by being a Drake is low, it should be noted that burst fire modifiers in particular do not count for comparing DV against hardened armor.


Where is this rule? I can't find it in SR4A, Arsenal, Runner's Companion, or the FAQ.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 11 2011, 01:42 PM) *
You are correct, but the other 4 armor is specific to the drake form. So the 7 armor calculation is only half of the equation.


Right, you're even worse off in metahuman form, which is probably the majority of your life unless you like to stand out like a sore thumb.
CanRay
Unlike the Troll that has an assault cannon strapped over his shoulder? With a Pink Mohawk and a Punk outfit?
rumanchu
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Mar 11 2011, 10:57 AM) *
Where is this rule? I can't find it in SR4A, Arsenal, Runner's Companion, or the FAQ.


SR4A, p.153: "Note that this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating."
Draco18s
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Mar 11 2011, 12:59 PM) *
Right, you're even worse off in metahuman form, which is probably the majority of your life unless you like to stand out like a sore thumb.


Which is why I like Slinky the Stealth Drake.
Who cares if you stick out like a sore thumb if no one can see you?

Also, it was awesome when he casually stripped naked in front of the party.
Machiavelli
QUOTE (rumanchu @ Mar 11 2011, 07:29 PM) *
SR4A, p.153: "Note that this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating."


Does that also count for auto-fire?
Draco18s
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Mar 11 2011, 01:41 PM) *
Does that also count for auto-fire?


The DV you compare to armor is:
Base DV of the weapon + Net hits.
That's it.
I don't even think the bonus damage for a called shot is factored in, although it may be.
James McMurray
QUOTE (rumanchu @ Mar 11 2011, 02:29 PM) *
SR4A, p.153: "Note that this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating."


Thanks! The possession mage in our group will like that, though it's usually full auto that's being used to punch through his hardening.

QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Mar 11 2011, 02:41 PM) *
Does that also count for auto-fire?


Doesn't look like it. It's only under the short burst section.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 11 2011, 02:48 PM) *
The DV you compare to armor is:
Base DV of the weapon + Net hits.
That's it.


That's not what the rule rumanchu pointed to says. Is there another rule that says this?
pbangarth
Unfortunately, the description of Full-auto fire on page 154 does not repeat the caveat on page 153 for short bursts. The principle involved for the short bursts is that each bullet by itself is not hitting harder because more are being fired at once. If this applies for 3 bullets, it should apply for 6 bullets and 10 bullets.

But it doesn't actually say so on page 154. Every game I've played in so far applies the rule generally for all forms of burst/auto fire.
Yerameyahu
I wouldn't stack the armors in the first place. In this case, yes, it's not an issue because it's weak; but just as a general principle. smile.gif
Fringe
What about taking a Called Shot to bypass armor?

"Target an area not protected by armor. The attacking character receives a negative dice pool modifier equal to the targetís armor (better armor is more difficult to bypass). If the attack hits, the targetís armor is ignored for the damage resistance test; the target rolls only Body." (SR4A, p. 161)

I've never seen this used in-game, but it seems like it'd be a reasonable tactic against hardened targets...and something a gunslinger adept might look at doing now and then.
Draco18s
You can use it. And it will bypass hardened armor.
Yerameyahu
That makes sense: if you saw the monster (heh) had granite armor, you might aim for the eyes or something. In practice, it probably still uses their total (normal) armor, which could be a problem.
CanRay
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 11 2011, 03:23 PM) *
That makes sense: if you saw the monster (heh) had granite armor, you might aim for the eyes or something. In practice, it probably still uses their total (normal) armor, which could be a problem.

I'd aim at getting a bigger gun.

Actually, I'd aim at getting a gun, period, instead of a firearm. Artillery, in other words. Now, where did I leave my Mortar? Oh yes, I was carrying it around the house to dust it off when I decided to have breakfast, and left it in the kitchen nook.
pbangarth
The critter power Hardened armor is a bit tricky. For example, where on a spirit is the magical effect of it's Materialized ItNW weaker?
Yerameyahu
Doesn't matter, that's just fluff. 'Called shot to Bypass Armor' works on a full body suit with helmet.
Belvidere
As a somewhat related question. Are there any forms of artificial hardened armor? Every example I can think of is "natural" IE, not made by people. Is there any armor, or house rules for armor to give hardened armor. Or does it come down to, "If a human can build it, a human can break it"?
Yerameyahu
No. They took it out in SR4, AFAIK. Vehicle armor has a similar function, of course.
pbangarth
Well, there's the custom-built walker drone with the rigger cocoon. That should be good for some hardened armor.
tagz
QUOTE (Belvidere @ Mar 11 2011, 08:50 PM) *
As a somewhat related question. Are there any forms of artificial hardened armor? Every example I can think of is "natural" IE, not made by people. Is there any armor, or house rules for armor to give hardened armor. Or does it come down to, "If a human can build it, a human can break it"?

Get 100% behind a barrier of some sort, a wall, plasti-crete, glass, whatever. Anytime someone shoots through a type of barrier to hit on object on the other side they have to do enough damage to beat the Armor rating in order for the attack to penetrate and hit. See SR4A p 166, Shooting Through Barriers.

Also there is some debate on the other forums about vehicle armor providing similar mechanics to Hardened Armor to it's passengers. The argument against is that the mention of the attack failing is due to vehicles not having a stun track. The argument for is that the ruling is located in the Armor description and is a quality of the armor which is added to the passenger regardless of vehicles having no stun track (which is mentioned separately, allowing both rules to function separately of one another). Also, allowing it to act as "hard" armor means it functions similarly to shooting through barriers unless a called shot to avoid it is made. Personally, I side on granting the "hard" quality equal to the vehicle's armor rating.
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