And the #1 reason the Indians would fail in the great ghost dance in the SR timeline:

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=OQnU1t7UzgM

God bless the USA, praise the lord and pass the ammo--(to paraphrase an old quote).

You do realize that they could own each and every one of those themselves... right? It wasn't the 'White boy" gun shoot..... any gun WE can buy.. THEY can buy...

What in the hell are you talking about?

assuming that Warlordtheft is actually the dumb fucking republican racist ass red neck he's trying to portray in this thread, I'm amazed that he made it through an entire Shadowrun Core rulebook or figured out how to register for these forums. Congratulations on living the american dream by rising above your birth status.

I want to try the Vickers, and the Ma-Deuce. In that order. And a Bren in honor of my Great Uncle.

*Sighs* Probably never going to happen.

I respect American made as far as the Thompson and 1911, but the finest firearm ever crafted by the hand of man, give me an Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947.

If I ever fight a war, that is the weapon I'm reaching for.

A Russian (Not Czech, not Ukrainian, not Chinese) AK-47 and a Colt 1911 is all I'll need.

This post, so full of win.



Besides, magic and their spirit buddies wants a word with you Warlordtheft. RL and SR parted ways ages ago and only have a passing similarity at best, rest assured you could probably still find like minded individuals in a policlub though, that hasn't changed. You can plot the taking back your heritage from those damn savages who stole your beloved motherland from "Ares" in SR 2072+

@Laodicea: Just because someone is a Republican doesn't make them evil. So Laodicea I would like an apology for your insulting remarks.

@CanadianWolverine: No, the native americans would not have won. Yes, they might have hit the US hard, they could not have held the territory, but unless EVERY SINGLE indian was a "Magic Brave", they didn't have the firepower to win.

No, FASA applied a great deal of handwavium to make the Balkanized world of Shadowrun. Like I said before, FASA got out the Big Book of Stereotypes, paged from front to back and then said: "Yes, this is the world of Shadowrun." I love the game system. The fluff... not so much.

This has been gone over in great detail in other threads. There is no reason to do so again.

The Terms of Service are quite clear. This partisan trash talk and personal attacks will not be tolerated.

There's nothing stopping you from going south on a trip to OK to try one out. Not sure what the cost of rent and ammo would be (a thousand rounds would be expensive).


@Laodicea & CanadianWolverine: You have no idea who I am, or what my beliefs are--and read too much into my post to boot. I'd say more, but I'd violate TOS..

I'd like to know what that full auto pistol was (with the huge magazine)...I'm thinking it is a Glock.

Actually for class III firearms (Full auto) the FBI does a background check. So probably not possible during the events leading up to the Great Ghost Dance. They would have to get them from other than legal means. Most likely the same source that narco-terrorists gets them from.


The only other explanation (sort of hinted at in Shadows of North America) was that many of the non-indian residents in those states supported the indians due to the immorality of the US actions during the great ghost dance, or the promise of being free of federal interference and water rights. Most of these had little or next to no relation with Indian blood but after the nations were founded and needing some semblence of population, most of the NAN made qualifying for tribal membership a pretty lax affair (yes my 2nd cousin twice removed is 1/10th Lakota and I qualify for NAN citizenship).

PS:Yes there was a long thread on this a while back...forget the the title of it, maybe someone more inclined can link to it.

Also, I remember some Shadowtalk about an old Soldier that had to deal with Well-Equipped Indians with Ma-Deuces galore and all the ammo they could want.

CJ Chiver's "The Gun" is an excellent book on the roots of the AK, and the culture that created it. btw, you probably want an AKM, which was made in 1959, and eliminated some problems the original model had.

Enough of them were "magic braves" as you put it that their firepower included such things as volcanoes and lightning strikes.

You are correct, I don't know what your beliefs are other than the ones you care to share. I wasn't thinking of how it possibly unjustly maligned your reputation on these forums, only that I liked the cut of his jib, the rant had prose I enjoyed and a stance against a particular meme I could get behind.



Glad you pointed that out, at least on that we can see eye to eye that. I would like to get into this subject more, its a topic that pretty much is the reason I took an interest in SR in the first place and set it apart from the rest of the P&P pack, but I gotta roll. I hope I can revisit this later.

I'd use a punt gun.

Glock 18.

That only works if you assume the NA only went out to buy their machine guns when they were ready to go to war and didn't stock up for decades before hand. Or.. you know. Knew anyone that sold them. lol It's not like they decided to go to war on Thursday, then on Friday there's long lines at the Gun-mart. lol presumably they built up their arsonels the same way anyone else does. A few at a time.

Also, they probably raided a few national guard armories as well.

Procuring small arms for your little rebellion typically is no big issue.

9/11 never happened is SR canon, so the SAIM could just call Libya and tell them they want to fight the imperialist Yankee pigs. The chaos of the post-Soviet years and Balkan wars AFAIK are canonical, plus the Eurowars, the bottom line is a shitload of military weapons on the market.

In SR canon, Libya launched some chemical weapons at Israel in 2004, and got a few nukes back in exchange (IRL, it was the year Libya officially dismantled its chemical arsenal). But I guess you could try Venezuela instead or wherever. Eurowars, on the other hand, started much later, in 2030.

Yeah, but the US military knew enough that these Indians were doing some REALLY wacky crap. One MOAB or FAE would have done them in. When they bounced that, then they would have used a nuke* (or two). I would LOVE to see the rules explaining how to survive a 80 kiloton nuke.

* == I know FASA had to get rid of nukes because they would stop their little balkanized world building.

Honestly Redwulf, the whole Magic Brave thing is the DUMBEST thing in Shadowrun. Next dumbest thing is Corporations being allowed that much power.

Can you really believe that Politicians would give up ANY power? I mean really lets look at the mess in Washington. A judge tells the FCC that Net Neutrality is illegal, and what does the FCC do, it made the internet a utility. This is the type of government that would allow Corporations to be extra-territorial? Really?

No.. I think your proposal to use "A NUKE OR TWO" On US Soil against US citizens has to rank up there with one of the dumbest things I've heard for shadowrun.

These people weren't moving as massed armys. To "Nuke" them you'd have to nuke US Cities... your own people... deploy nuclear weapons on our own soil.. against (( at the time)) A small terrorist population hidden among your own people.

That's just dumb.

As for the Military, you forget this was before magic had really come out.

"Oh the Indians are doing a pow wow dance"
"Yeah? they in those cool costumes with the feathers an' shit?"
"NUKE UM!!! NUKE UM ALLLL!!!!!""

Dude.. really? *Shakes head* Think about it..


When the Ghost dance happened and the NA's proved they could explode numerous volcanoes all at the same time it was impressive. (( Don't think so? look what one earth quake and tsunami did to Japan)), It scared the crap out of the world because no one had any earthly idea how to fight against that. They did send some military against the NA's escaping, If I remember right jets rolled out once and the Native American's whipped up tornados to swat them out of the sky.

How does a conventional military, who just lost a flight of billion dollar jets to INSTANTLY SUMMONED Tornados fight that enemy hidden among it's own people?

You're seriously ignoring the setting.

Are there plot holes in shadowrun? Sure. big ones.

But "NUKE THE US CITIZENS TO GET THEM PESKY INDIANS" is dumb.

Also, they're some of the first "Military" groups to incorporate magic into a combat unit. Remember, this was before the days of "Geek the Mage First". Soldiers really had no idea on how to deal with things like Spirits and Spells.

Fine, nuke them... Where are they? Spread out all over the Midwest (Breadbasket States) for the most part. Oh, look, prevailing winds will blow that fallout into the East Coast and/or West Coast. Yeah, not cool. Even worse, it's going to Canada and Mexico... Internal strife just turned into an International Incident.

As a matter of fact I seem to recall something, possibly in an earlier edition, about nukes failing to work. Obviously if I'm remembering correctly that was either fixed before they nuked bug town or it was something a specific group or being was doing to the specific group of nukes launched.



Honestly we seem to be getting closer to THAT every day.

Nukes in SR are hit and miss. The city leveling kind have not worked since the awakening (the lone eagle incident was reportedly shot down by soviet defenses, tho there is no evidence either way), but the smaller scale (in nuclear terms) ones still seems to do their thing.

And hell, try to launch a nuke by way of missile in SR and some great dragon or other may well tell a spirit to go rip the warhead off in mid flight. And any bomber is even worse off, stealth or not.

Damn, I always always fail at putting fictional history in the correct order

I'm gonna quote myself on this one.

Seems i have missed some recent mushroom sprouts then, thanks for the list.

Strategic nuclear options simply aren't viable in Shadowrun due to all the corps having multiple interests in any region you could conceivably launch a nuke at. Tactical nukes might be viable, but I'd imagine most corps with those resources would be gun-shy about the public backlash and the possibility of very chaotic physical and magical repercussions. You don't nuke a city because you have interests in that city, and turning it into a radioactive toxic spirit infested wasteland doesn't benefit anyone but the toxic shaman.

Did the nukes actually go off in System Failure?

IIRC, they didn't do nearly as much damage as everyone was expecting. Which led to speculation that the Awakening has changes nuclear physics somehow. Also, there are hints here and there that radiation interferes with the manasphere. I guess the interference can go both ways.

Mother Nature woke up, and boy is She slotted off!

Way to show how open minded you are, by comparison.

The US really needs another political party or two, just so that the opponents are not so polar opposed on, well, everything except keeping their Corporate Overlords fat and happy.

Yeah. I'm generally against all politicians from either party. It's clear that both of them only have one agenda and that is enriching themselves. The republicans are just a little less clever about hiding it. Also, they're closet racists.

Are you ignoring the TOS on purpose, or did you just not read it when you agreed to it or when a moderator posted the pertinent sections right here to this very thread? I'm curious.

As long as the moderator is ignoring the blatantly racist and possibly threatening overtones of the original post in this thread, I'm ignoring him. I suppose it could earn me a ban, but I'm not terribly worried about it, as forum registrations are an infinite good. If the thread gets locked or deleted, I will have accomplished my goals.

So, got it. Ignoring the TOS on purpose, then.

Willful TOS violations will earn swift and immediate account suspensions. Done.

For the record, the specifics of the opening post are being debated by the moderation staff to determine intent. Warning may yet be forthcoming as well as a few for any follow up posts that are determined to have crossed the TOS.

Finally: The warnings however went out before the last post, which we will also be debating getting its own warning.

What, still not locked? O.o
wonder if it'll still be ongoing and open when i wake up again.

I thought the party line was that Winternight tampered with them somehow to get a bigger emp out of the bang.

Yes, they tampered with them somehow to lessen the boom but amplify the other effects. With the magic metal I can't spell right now.

I edited the original post to reflect my original intent. My apologies to anyone I may have offended with my original post.

PS:Yes I did get warning, and after mulling it over can see where I went wrong.

I still object with the premise, magical SR braves and all that. Think of it like a arms race, you like that stuff, correct? Well, the FNs of SR, developed magical nukes (and all the intervening branches of science, engineering, and tech) while everyone while everyone else was still working out how to rub a few magical sticks together to get fire.

Oh, and that 1% number that gets thrown around, doesn't dictate how that breaks down, I am pretty sure that is aproximately 1% of total world population (according to our records, which we are loathe to share with other corps, and are complete and accurate despite large swaths of the population having no records aka SiNless ... oh, and some of the records were lost in crashes and troubling times when they burned down the library/county records. Oh and we lynched people who we suspected of being magical, so they totally told us they were... er, yeah, 1%, totally accurate) so you could take a guess that SR had 6 Billion in the world, 1% of that is 60 Million. Even if the AmerIndian populations had great population explosions from about where the timeline begins to divorce itself from our reality or that they never were the same at all (thanks Immortal Elves) so they have as many First Nations people as the SR universe requires to suspend disbelief reasonably, you could probably have every last one of them be magical and end up with room to spare with my fiction 1% = 60 Million number. That's right, I can totally say almost every last single person of any FN descent could have magic mojo and there would still be plenty left over for people of other ancestry. Oh, and the Amerindian treat those with magic mojo, heck, metahumanity the best out of all the other possibly choices and that isn't going to have people joining their cause. And then there is the people pissed at the corps. And the people pissed at the corrupt governments went all nazi setting up death camps and selling rights to corps. And then the people who already had a hard on for nature and then the world is convinced Mother Earth picked the Amerindian's side?

Yeah, your fire power and the UCAS partisan or military fellow who didn't defect can try to guess where the invisible, magically armored braves who call down crazy ass weather are as they steal that gear right out from under their noses and then use it against them. Oh, and not all the braves are brown. Best of luck to ya UCAS, it was nice knowing ya, adios muchachos.

Shadowrun First Nations, the original shadow runners. They don't fight fair.

Maybe it's late or something.. but Canadian.. your post..... is... .weird man... I think I can tell what you're trying to say but ... wow man.

Friend of mine is even more pale than I am, blond hair, blue eyes, and can get Metis status. As far as the NAN are concerned, that makes him a AmerIndian.

And it wasn't "JUST" AmerIndians either. They had sympathizers of all sorts. And people forget that the NAN isn't 100% AmerIndians. HUGE portions of their populations are nationalized people of other ethnic types that agree to the NAN's ruler-ship and sovereignty.

Has an argument/discussion about the probability of a successful NAN takeover of the continental United States/Canada ever gone well, people? Really? Some folks get so up in arms about it, thread after thread, it might as well be about dikoting your ally spirit.

Either you take your suspension-of-disbelief pill and you just accept Shadowrun's a zany work of fiction built on zany fictional premises in some vaguely-like-ours Earth, or you don't. The numbers have all been crunched before, the amateur experts on guerrilla warfare have all chimed in before, folks have expressed either pride or outrage at the Magical Brave stereotype before, VITAS has been mentioned before, and on and on and on, and they invariable end in bitterness, mod warnings, and/or a thread lock.

It's not history, it's Shadowrun. Was it goofy as all hell? You bet'cha. But it's there, it's canon, and the splintering of the United States (and the way in which they splintered) isn't going away any time soon because it's a cornerstone of the metaplot and has been for twenty-two years now.

Bickering over it doesn't do anyone any good, unless you've got stock in whatever company sells blood pressure medication to the moderators.