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Troyminator
Hi All;

My group, if their tendancies from the D&D days hold true, will scavange, loot, and sell everything they can off of the multitude of corpses they will create. Is there a formal way of generating the amount of nuyen.gif for selling secondhand/used gear or is it a "Gear is so easy to get that the black market is glutted with used weapons, armor, cyberware, organs, etc"?

Thanks in advance for your help
Epicedion
One thing that'll stop them is the inability to lug around a ton of extra gear. Can they stuff a few extra grenades, pistols, and clips into a duffel bag? Sure. Can they recover every MP-5 dropped by security guards? Probably not.

Err, more to the point, there's a section in the Street Gear part of the book that covers fencing gear.
Faraday
If they have enough time to salvage guns and equipment from dead guards/crime scenes, you're not doing it right. nyahnyah.gif

Seriously, though, no particular tables exist, you'd have to determine what people had and if anything valuable was in the area. And, as Epic mentioned, they'd then have to *fence* that gear.
Manunancy
In my opinion cont on something like 5 to 10% (at the very best) of the market value for a new item. The gear is corporate property, stolen during a violent crime, with plenty of serial numbers and the like to get the fence in trouble. It's not just hot (stolen) gear, but dirty gear (associated with crimes).

Getting caught selling it can send the fence behind bars for a looong loong time, and he'll set his prices accordingly - if he even accepts it. Of course the PC might omit the little embarassing detail of where they got the gear or even lie about it, but if the fence evers find out, that's going to bite the PCs in the backside with a bad repute.

The problems gets even worse if they're gross enough to rip cyberware out. If they rip it out of inapacited but still living guards, killing them in the process, make sure they get a very nasty repute and a lot of attention for their pain. That sort of behaviour will draw a lot of media attention, with the perpetrators apinted as complete monsters. That's likely to affect the kind of jobs who float their way; drifting toward the nasty end of the moral spectrum as they grow a repute for being amoral bastards.

But if you wan to nip that sort of things in the bud, hit them with reinforcement and cops when they start wasting time to loot. But make sure the response time are at least somewhat plausible consdiering the location of the fight. A corp research station in the middle of the Nevada desert is unlikly to see reinforcment showing up very soon, unless it' part of a cluster of sites.
TheOOB
Corps don't usually try to capture shadowrunners after the fact because they understand shadowrunners are professional and it was just business, and the corps don't get anything for catching the runners anyways. If the runners start taking everything thats not nailed down though, the corp is going to change it's mind and start trying to catch the runners to get back their stuff.
Medicineman
And If they Kill Guards & civillians to get to their 'ware then soon there'll be a Bounty on their Head (Dead not Alive) for the gross mutilating of Victims(are these the right words for hideaous behaviour ?) maybe even raised by the bereaved

with a mourning Dance
Medicineman
Glyph
This isn't D&D. For one thing, runners are usually on more of a time crunch - they need to get out of there before reinforcements show up. For another thing, they have to haul their ill-gotten gains out of there, and they don't have things like bags of holding or portable holes.

They usually won't get much extra for trying to unload a few hot SMGs that they nabbed off of security - if they do, though, I wouldn't go overboard with "consequences". Taking too long to completely search those guards will likely give them trouble with reinforcements showing up, but grabbing a few things won't. They just won't make a lot of money doing this, most of the time.

Organlegging or cyber-scavenging will be another area where most of the profit will be taken out by the middle men, but unlike simple looting, it is something that can give them a bad rep, even among their fellow runners who get paid to shoot people in the face. Jobs will get nastier, notoriety will rise, and contacts will drop them to be replaced by sleazier ones.
Draco18s
If your players are making more money stealing cars (or selling stolen guns), you're not paying them enough.
Dahrken
Or you let them sell the stuff for more than you should.
Pepsi Jedi
This is actually addressed in the new Attitude book. Short version is, in the year 2072 99% of items are marked and RFID chipped into the stratosphere and if you steal not only will the stuff be EASILY Traced to you through shadow channels but more over can bring a heap of trouble down on you. When your stolen gun can actually access the wireless matrix and "Tell" on you and "Tell" Momma corp where it is via the wireless hook up and you go to a meet with your fence and a group of Red Samurai come in from a chopper to 'educate the silly runner on the ---unprofesional---- habit of robbing them blind and take out the fence, the shadow run team and a city block.. .it'll educate the players on the perils of being looters and common thugs.

Their NEXT char's will either 1) Not do it. or 2) be more careful.

But yes. I also echo what others have said. If your group has time to totally loot the bodies (( I'm talking about stripping them down, not just grabbing an access card or a clip or two)) thenyou're giving them too much time.

Another route you can take is to have the gear bio locked to the guard that is using it. You need the thumbprint on the grip of the gun for said gun to fire, and it's hard wired that way and would cost more to override the thumprint lock than to just by a new gun, making their 'loot' effectively worthless (( Another gem from the attitude book, that one)) Or any number of such similar things.

ANOTHER option.. is to booby trap a few pieces of gear. "I grab the SMG off the guard and stuff it in my bag" "Ok when you pull it out of his hand you didn't notice the thin line that connected it to his wrist com. When that line breaks the gun explodes in your hand...... Rolling damage"

If THAT doesn't keep them from looting everything to the ground...... do what I've had to do in a few games. When the enemy 'falls' that includes their gear. Sure you kiolled the corp guard but in shooting him your bullets also hit his gun and it's broken. Just junk.

If thjey still do it. Smack um up side the head with the book and tell um it's not D&D and they're not the Auction Kings.
Xahn Borealis
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 24 2011, 07:05 PM) *
If thjey still do it. Smack um up side the head with the book and tell um it's not D&D and they're not the Auction Kings.


And if they still do it?
Ascalaphus
Some of those suggestions seem a bit extreme.

Sure, you don't want to GM for a group that vacuum-cleans every area they pass through. But getting vindictive is going too far in the other direction. It's nice when people say "I check the corpses to see if there's anything worth taking along" and occasionally, there is something worth taking. Finding a nifty battle trophy can put the finishing touch on a combat.

I don't like SR4's RFID fetish. Sure, it's a possible future, but not a very fun one to play in. It'd be nice if you could actually get away with some crime here and there. So auto-win RFIDs are bad. Solutions: a cheap (R1) jammer basically stops their signal from getting out, also, tag erasers.

Maybe cuter is for a corporation to engrave its emblem on equipment on a molecular level. Nearly impossible to scrub off without destroying the equipment, but you need a real scanning platform to check it out - it doesn't call attention to itself as much.

---

Maybe a better approach is to ask the players to keep a "bag"; as long as everyone is agreed that the collected loot can reasonably fit into the bag, it's fine. Looting should be mostly about small, lightweight, high-value targets of opportunity. Commlinks, ammo, nice pistols and so forth.

---

As for battle loot: have the looter roll something like (current) Edge to see how much damage the loot took?
BishopMcQ
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 24 2011, 12:05 PM) *
This is actually addressed in the new Attitude book. Short version is, in the year 2072 99% of items are marked and RFID chipped into the stratosphere and if you steal not only will the stuff be EASILY Traced to you through shadow channels but more over can bring a heap of trouble down on you. When your stolen gun can actually access the wireless matrix and "Tell" on you and "Tell" Momma corp where it is via the wireless hook up and you go to a meet with your fence and a group of Red Samurai come in from a chopper to 'educate the silly runner on the ---unprofesional---- habit of robbing them blind and take out the fence, the shadow run team and a city block.. .it'll educate the players on the perils of being looters and common thugs.
This is actually solved by a tag eraser and/or a Rating 1 jammer.

QUOTE
But yes. I also echo what others have said. If your group has time to totally loot the bodies (( I'm talking about stripping them down, not just grabbing an access card or a clip or two)) thenyou're giving them too much time.
This is true.

QUOTE
Another route you can take is to have the gear bio locked to the guard that is using it. You need the thumbprint on the grip of the gun for said gun to fire, and it's hard wired that way and would cost more to override the thumprint lock than to just by a new gun, making their 'loot' effectively worthless (( Another gem from the attitude book, that one)) Or any number of such similar things.
I tend to think that if the biometric lock will cost more to change out than replacing the gun itself, the Megacorps would probably choose a different method of securing their gear. Afterall, if John Q. Guard gets reassigned and needs a new gun, you don't want to be throwing away hundreds/thousands of nuyen per transfer. Have a built in safety that the gun won't fire outside of the building--it's associated with the intranet--sure, and it'll take a minute to change if you are in the system or hours to fix if you are manually removing the system. But I don't think the corps would be taking huge measures to keep guns away from shadowrunners. That's money that could be spent keeping the shadowrunnners out of the building in the first place.
K1ll5w1tch
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 24 2011, 09:21 AM) *
If your players are making more money stealing cars (or selling stolen guns), you're not paying them enough.


I've found theres generally never enough money for PC's to buy all the primo gear they want quick enough. I prefer if you want to act like common criminals I'll treat you like common criminals and have the cops constantly jam you up and harrass you.
noonesshowmonkey
As others have pointed out, if your players are afforded enough time to strip down bodies of any valuable goods, stash a corpse in a vat of acid and strain out the alphaware leftovers, they have a bit too much time on their hands. As another has pointed out, if they are making more from swag than the job, you maybe aren't paying them enough.

For example:

A team hitting a secure facility in Tacoma has - from the time of the first gunshot - something like two to four minutes to be gone, baby gone before at least Lone Star shows up, in addition to whatever private security firm is contracted for extra muscle. If your group can break into a facility, toss the joint and get whatever they are looking for and still haul away that much booty, then your cops are too slow, your security systems are too simple and the private security contractors are pushovers.

Further, the carry-able gear is bulky, heavy and hard to conceal in large quantities. Even if you get away from the scene, you still have a van full of stolen machine guns and dead corp guards (or their limbs) full of cyberware. Don't get stopped for running a red light, omae.

Finally, being extremely monty-haul, especially a Tanamous-we-stick-people's-corpses-in-acid-and-steal-their-cyber sort of way is a great way to gain Notoriety. Nobody wants to work with you, nobody wants to talk to you and everybody will sell you out for a lot less nuyen than you'd like to think.
Draco18s
QUOTE (K1ll5w1tch @ Mar 24 2011, 02:55 PM) *
I've found theres generally never enough money for PC's to buy all the primo gear they want quick enough. I prefer if you want to act like common criminals I'll treat you like common criminals and have the cops constantly jam you up and harrass you.


While true, they should want to go on runs to make money. They shouldn't have to resort to petty theft.

Stealing a case of BTL chips hot off the press? Jack that primo piece of experimental cyber? Sure. The guns off corpses? No.
Irion
Well, if you carry the stuff of several guards and the cyber breast of the dancer you just shot, well it will slow you down.
This leads to the rest of guards putting a bullit in your head and shooting five more times just to be sure.

Think of what happens to copkillers today, and remember it will be much worse in Shadowrun.

So killing that guard: BAD IDEA.

Stealing his stuff and be slowed down: VERY BAD IDEA.

Selling that stuff ASAP and leaving a datatrail to catch you: Certainly a DEADLY IDEA.


Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Mar 24 2011, 02:33 PM) *
This is actually solved by a tag eraser and/or a Rating 1 jammer.


Only if they know they're there or where to look. If you have to disassemble your loot to component parts to erase a chip it makes the loot alot less valuable. And it takes more time. And that's again assuming you know it's there.

As for the jammer. It might work. Might not. Depends on what sort of transmitter the equipment has. Even then. Again.. You have to know the chip is there. It might be one that lays dormant (( so it's not transmitting)) until a turn on code is transmitted to IT. Where in it'll tell the base where it is. Or it may only report in bursts at preset times. So when you scan it for transmitters 99out of 100 times it won't be transmitting so you don't take it apart and eye ball every piece of it, but that 100th second it may go active and send it's gps fix. And most runners, while they know about guns and stuff. Don't build them. There's PLENTY of people that can shoot weapons but aren't gunsmiths. Watch a few episodes of Sons of Guns. lol I know it's funny and sensationalized for TV but between that you see them actually building some of the weapons and stuff for the people that buy them. The difference between. "Army sniper" and "Gunsmith" is astounding. And while most gunsmiths are good shots, most good shooters are NOT gunsmiths.

QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Mar 24 2011, 02:33 PM) *
This is true.

I tend to think that if the biometric lock will cost more to change out than replacing the gun itself, the Megacorps would probably choose a different method of securing their gear. Afterall, if John Q. Guard gets reassigned and needs a new gun, you don't want to be throwing away hundreds/thousands of nuyen per transfer.


You're not looking at it from the right angle. The Biometric lock costs more to change out ILLEGALLY than the gun itself.

envision those little laptop lock cables. They're steel cables and you plug the lock into the back of your laptop. If you have the key, it takes you 2 seconds to unlock it and you're on your way. if you do NOT have the key and try and remove the lock it rips the guts out of the laptop making it useless. Now, the lock on the gunsand stuff isn't going to be 100% the same as the little laptop lock but you get the idea. If you have the proper key or tool or what ever, code, what ever, it takes 2 seconds to change the gun for John Q Guard that got reassigned. If you steal John's gun... it's like trying to steal the laptop with out the key, it'll rip the guts out. Can you get around it? Sure. Just like you can get around those laptop keys, but it's difficult and you need specialty tools and those cost money, or a special skill set which also costs money. That's why they're used. It's a deterrent on the theft. they become "More trouble than they're worth" so why steal um?

QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Mar 24 2011, 02:33 PM) *
Have a built in safety that the gun won't fire outside of the building--it's associated with the intranet--sure, and it'll take a minute to change if you are in the system or hours to fix if you are manually removing the system. But I don't think the corps would be taking huge measures to keep guns away from shadowrunners. That's money that could be spent keeping the shadowrunnners out of the building in the first place.


That's assuming it costs them something. I'd think the corps have a very good incentive not to outfit shadowrunners with better hardware. If it cost them 5 yen to secure their 500 yen rifle they're going to pay 505 Yen on the rifle.
Pepsi Jedi
And as Noonesshowmonkey brought up, if you do this, (( rob the corpses and stuff)) you come across as an amateur. Johnsons don't want to work with that. because if you'll steal on the job when you were sent to do something else. You'll steal from them. It makes you look like a street hood, not a shadow runner.

Are streethoods all bad? No, but you don't pay your local ganger the same as you play a Shadowrunner. They don't get the same jobs. Gangers are used BY shadowrunners.

It's like the difference between your garden verity stick up crack head from South Central..... or a high paid military assassin with multi thousand dollar rifle that can shoot someone from a mile off. You might pay your stick up crack head $500 to walk into a bar and use his lil 38 special to put bullets into a guy sitting there so he can get his fix.. but you pay the highly paid military assassin $50,000 to make a hit from a mile off at some drug lords' summer home.

You may expect the crack head to loot the body when he's done and run off with the target's watch, gun, wallet and cyber eyes.. but the high paid assassin? No. You expect professionalism.

So... that being said.. if your Professionals act like petty crack head thugs.. they're going to be known as petty crack head thugs.. and not be treated like Professionals.. or PAID like professionals.

"Street level games" Are well and good. Dirty. gritty and down to earth. You can play a gangster if you like.. but if you wanna run the shadows with the big boys, you gotta act like the highly paid professional. Not the crack head looting bodies to get your fix.
Epicedion
Also, any gun with a smartlink is going to be keyed to its owner's PAN. This means that almost any gun you pick up is going to be useless unless you hack the smartlink and rewrite the access list.

Besides Biometrics, there's nothing stopping a company from wiring a hardcoded Stealth RFID to a firing pin block in the firing assembly, such that the only way to disengage the block is bring the gun within a few centimeters of a special RFID trigger -- probably implanted in the palm of the firer's hand, a simple surgery which is much more cost effective than unwiring and rewiring every gun in your arsenal every time a gun changes hands.

They could even do this in such a way that the Stealth RFID is integral to the gun's function -- permanently attached inside the firing assembly, for example. You'd have to discard the whole assembly and then scavenge an unmodified assembly from another gun entirely just to bring it into working order.

Possible? Yes. But you'd need one functional but otherwise unsellable identical gun to make each corp weapon usable.
Modular Man
I'm not quite sure what this discussion is all about - not wanting the players to loot everything because it wouldn't match the world of Shadowrun or because it would break the game's balance?
In my opinion, some of the above suggestions are rather harsh and possibly over the top.
Still, there's stuff runners can and cannot do.
So, let's give it a close look:
1.) Grabbing some gear, maybe weapons, off dead or incapacitated guards/whatever.
There are the mentioned RFIDs, making it at least a little more difficult. Although there's gear (jammer, tag eraser) to get along with it.
2.) Stealing everything. The rigger parks his van in front of the building and they salvage the complete interior.
Where did they get so much time? Also, this is not quite stealthy or subtle.
3.) Cutting Cyberware out of dead bodies.
You'll need contacts to fence used Cyberware or even organs of, Tamanous or the like. These are not very popular, so it will most likely affect your own reputation as well.

All these are hindrances to looting as much as possible. It's not an impossible task, though!
Example: One of my characters owns a WiFi-blocking bag, a HERF pistol and a drone capable of removing RFIDs (hardware in general, even at the cost of tearing the whole thing apart). On the last run, the team directly ran into an ambush in the sewers. They survived, two of our enemys didn't (sadly, bounty for living targets ork.gif ) . My character lootet their Commlinks and one of their AK-97, for later use, our streetsam kept their LMG, hacker got a complete nexus. We hab plenty of time, our primary target (kidnapping victim) was secure.
The Johnson didn't even notice, if he even cared.

So, before looting, check the following:
Does it affect the job/the target? In a bad way? Then no loot today. On the other hand, if the runners were to steal an item and took even more, it might obscure the initial target.
Am I capable of erasing the data trail? If not, no taking. Leaving a datatrail the size of a bigger river, that's an amateur's work.
Did the Johnson forbid me to take anything else? (Kind of obvious.) If in doubt, consider asking.

If you think that your players will destroy game balance, tell them outright. That's why nobody (hopefully) plays a mage capable of making orichalkum, a chemist creating a fortune in drugs or a rigger/hacker stealing a few dozen cars in between runs.
CanRay
Everything in moderation and the right time and place for the right things.
Pepsi Jedi
I think it's kinda funny some people are saying the security measures seem extreme, in the same breath they talk about parking a van in front of the building they're doing a shadowrun in and gutting the complete interior. lol
If you're playing a street level game where you're squatters or street kids that are just out to rob people. That's fine. You can do that. You're not really Shadowrunning. You're a gang of home invaders and armed thieves. Which is fine if that's how you wanna roll.

You're not real Shadowrunners. You're just rolling people and using the shadowruns as vectors or 'reason' to do so.

There's a difference between. "I grabbed a rifle on my way out of the building when we had to blow through 20 corp guards when a run went bad. I'd run out of ammo and needed to return fire till we could extract"

and "After each combat my group strips the other side down to the skin, stealing everything, including their clothes (( hey you can sell them to street ork kids. They love clothes with bullet holes, right?)) And even cut out their chrome, and we purposefully go INTO missions with empty back packs with full intent on stealing everything that's not nailed down"

You've become the psycho thrill killer thieves like the Halloweeners. Noone hires that sort of person for 'Serious' shadow runs. Sure if you wanna sick violent thieves on someone to make a point, you might get that job but you're going to get paid like the low class thug/theif you are. Not the (( Relatively)) Higher price for a real shadowrunner.

Sometimes Shadowruns are thefts. But they're for a purpose and part of the mission.

And yes everyone will grab a stray Ares Predator now and then when one hits the ground and you can scoop it up on the fly on the way out, but the OP and some of the responses here are NOT that sort of thing. I mean really, Back up the van? cutting cyber out of bodies? It's a viable playstyle but not the same thing.

It's like playing down and dirty 'Real' criminals that kill, lie, cheat, rape and murder, in a Super Hero game. You can do it. the rules let you and of course there's that 'Sort' of people out there if you like that sort of thing. It's just not the same game that the other people are playing.

If your runners act like violent killers that just take on shadowruns as reason to be places to rob them blind and loot them to the wall fixtures, you're going to get jobs that denote that level of skill and professionalisim
K1ll5w1tch
If you think that your players will destroy game balance, tell them outright. That's why nobody (hopefully) plays a mage capable of making orichalkum, a chemist creating a fortune in drugs or a rigger/hacker stealing a few dozen cars in between runs.
[/quote]

How about a demolitions expert capable of making 40P bomb vests? I got one of them in my campaign and it's a contant balance battle.
Epicedion
Pepsi's right. If you kill and loot everything in sight, your Notoriety and Public Awareness are going to go up through the roof when the evening news starts running blurbs on you.

"We're here at the Mitsuhama Office Park where, two hours ago, a gang of armed thugs gunned down seventeen security personnel and made off with weapons and ammunition with an estimated street value of 25,000 nuyen.gif . Our source in Mitsuhama called the scene a 'bloodbath,' asking for prayers for the families of the slain employees. Mitsuhama, in cooperation with Lone Star, is offering a 50,000 nuyen.gif reward for information that leads to the capture of these violent criminals. Lone Star officials have spoken with potential witnesses, and expect to have computer-generated composite sketches of the perpetrators available soon. Lone Star is warning citizens that if they encounter anyone they suspect to be part of this gang they should not approach them, and that they should instead call the Lone Star Crimewatch Hotline as soon as possible."

A corp can't call a full police alert if a professional team breaks in, shoots a couple guards, and makes off with a data file. They have to have a good cover story to get Lone Star involved, or else "what exactly did they steal?" becomes a big issue. When a team rolls in, shoots everyone in the facility, and steals all the equipment they can get their hands on, a great cover story has already been provided, and that team is about to become a very public menace.
Yerameyahu
So, in summary: they can't do that and be not-stupid runners at the same time. Either/or. smile.gif There are any number of setting-realistic consequences the GM can (should) unleash, and the value of fenced gear isn't very high in the first place.
CanRay
There'd also be a betting pool on ShadowSEA as to which group did it, when they're going to be caught, and which security team will catch them first. Most likely. nyahnyah.gif
Abstruse
Here you go. Here's what the interaction with the fence will be like:

"Hey, Rocky said you had something for me? What's this? Alpha? Predator III? Nice. These look fresh off the line and well maintained. Where'd you get-- No, nevermind. Here, let me check the RFID tags and...*click* WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU ONTO, HUH?! YOU THINK YOU CAN DO THIS TO ME?! I ain't gonna be caught DEAD with this stuff! This is straight from an Ares Sec Guards!! You have any idea how much heat this shit can bring down?! I will kill you, dig up the bodies, and kill you again if you EVER try to pull this crap on me again!! I got a voodoo friend who can make SURE you feel it the second time too! Now get the hell out of here!!"

Or you could just describe the sec team's back-up arriving watching the PC stripping their dead buddy's 6000 VERY difficult to get hold of security armor.
Makki
and your fixer/black market contact better has high loyalty to not sell you out as soon as you leave the bar. While he's dealing with illegal an hot stuff all the time, there' some publicity he can't afford.
Abstruse
QUOTE (Makki @ Mar 24 2011, 08:13 PM) *
and your fixer/black market contact better has high loyalty to not sell you out as soon as you leave the bar. While he's dealing with illegal an hot stuff all the time, there' some publicity he can't afford.

If it's government, maybe. But if it's corp, there's a very good chance he may not take the chance even for a second and sell them out. There's skirting the law and there's having one of your clients fill your business with C12 and blow it sky high for a couple grand in payback. Hell, an Ares Alpha costs 1700 and FNHAR costs 1000. Take out the overhead (say 75%) and multiply by the number of sec guards your average run-and-gun team is going to blow away on a run (10 is a minimum), and that's 2500 at least. Add in their comlinks, their ammo (which may be APDS or Ex-Ex, both of which are pricy), and any accessories (especially if they get a helmet) and that could easily hit 10000. And that's not counting the training they have to put the corpsec through. That's MORE than enough to hire my wetworks PC to blow someone's shop sky high.

Plus, they're breaking the unwritten rules of the game. You cause more damage than you're worth, the corps won't work with you and every runner team will be after you for jeopardizing their meal ticket.
Glyph
I think blowing up buildings and massacring the wage slaves in their cubicles is "breaking the unwritten rules". Nabbing a few guns and credsticks on your way out is not a big deal (taking everything that isn't nailed down is, but that kind of stupidity takes care of itself when they are still there when reinforcements show up).

I also think you're really underestimating the average fence. Dealing with hot/stolen items is his job, and I don't see him pitching a squealing fit over getting offered guns with an Ares logo on them. Obviously, he won't pay top dollar for them - but the group shouldn't be getting more than a bit of beer money for such petty larceny, at any rate.
agustaaquila
QUOTE (Abstruse @ Mar 24 2011, 09:57 PM) *
Plus, they're breaking the unwritten rules of the game. You cause more damage than you're worth, the corps won't work with you and every runner team will be after you for jeopardizing their meal ticket.


This. If you cause more damage than you are worth, then any corp will come after you. Might not happen if you kill a few guards and take their predator, but start taking the cyber off the guard (which the guards are likely still paying off) hits the bottom line harder. If it cuts too close, it makes more sense to hire runners for a wetwork mission. And the shadows can be a mightly bad place to hide if they are hunting you.
Pepsi Jedi
Gotta factor in PR and Rep too.

A shadow run now and then... something they can hide is one thing.

Mow down a truck fulla corp guards, steal all theirgear. rob them blind and demoralize (( or enrage)) their corp comrads and you're bringing in the "I heard the Azzies got their ass handed to them by that Shadowrun crew" and.... it behooves the corp to make an example out of them.


And yes. A fence deals in stolen goods. A gun here... a bit of information there..

Some people in this thread are advocating special duffele bags full of loot or .... BACKING UP THE VAN and cleaning the place out..

You fence one Predator every two or three months. that's one thing. You walk in with a duffel bag of guns or a van full of stolen loot and it's another.
Troyminator
Wow, such great debate.

My players have had one encounter. They killed some ghouls and devil rats then the face rolled incredibly well vs. a small time gang leader and talked him to moving his gang elsewhere. No blood shed in that encounter.

Thier next run will be a snatch and grab vs. the Yakusa (as a possible tie in to get Ghost Cartels going). We'll see how they loot things in this encounter. I LOVE many of the suggestions here. Thanks muchly.

I also love the idea that if they kill everyone in a 10 block radius, LS or KE will be on them like stink on crap.

A few years ago (with the 3 core members of the group) we tried d20 Modern (it pales in comparison to Shadowrun). They were unofficially working for the Chief of the Seattle PD. The chief told them that while they were working for him, they were not part of the police dept. and he wouldn't be able to get them out of hot water. They still managed to go into the warehouse/docks section of South Seattle and the residential area of West Seattle (yes, I live near Seattle) with guns blazing. They seemed to get offended when the Seattle PD was after them for attempted and successful murder and down right pissed off when, in the climax, the police drew weapons on them because they (the police) didn't know they (the players) were the good guys and had weapons drawn. This, and looting everything in sight in D&D, is what I am basing my expectations on. Thanks for all the good ideas on how to deal with this.
Ascalaphus
When your players start to do the ridiculous stuff, just ask them to take a step back, look at what they're doing, and if it doesn't look just a bit stupid.

"Think about it. Are you sure that works well?"

"Can you really carry that much loot?"

"Don't you think that'll make them come after you with so much more firepower than you could ever hope to get a hold of?"
mister__joshua
To take this in a slightly different direction, a few peeps have said that if PCs are looting gear then they aren't being paid enough. How much should PCs be paid for a typical run? I know it's based on Street Cred to a degree, and the difficulty of the job, but mine is more a question of economy. How much is 1 nuyen.gif worth in today's or $?

I've not been playing shadowrun for too long, and haven't really seen much in the way of guidelines for payment
Faraday
There's a really great list of pricing for various everyday products and services people need. It gives a good idea of what a nuyen is worth. (page 314 in SR4A)

Also, as some DSers have pointed out in other threads, if your PCs can make more by stealing vehicles, you aren't paying them enough.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Mar 24 2011, 12:33 PM) *
This is actually solved by a tag eraser and/or a Rating 1 jammer.


Problem is, a Tag Eraser does not affect a Security Tag. Security tags are non-erasable. For that you need an Indirect Spell "Destroy RFID" that will just destroy whatever tags are on an item.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2011, 08:03 AM) *
Problem is, a Tag Eraser does not affect a Security Tag. Security tags are non-erasable. For that you need an Indirect Spell "Destroy RFID" that will just destroy whatever tags are on an item.


And it still only works on tags you can see.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 25 2011, 06:12 AM) *
And it still only works on tags you can see.


Not if you are using an Indirect Spell... smile.gif
Blog
Like many things in shadowrun situations dictate what would be proper ettiquite. Unless the job is a "no witnesses" i'm more inclined to leave as little footprint on the scene as possible. This includes starting out with non-lethal damage. My view, its just some wage slave; they might have a family they are trying to support or their own goals they want to do and we are just there to do our thing and get the heck out. Looting only really makes sense to me if 1) its something you or the team can use 2) you have a pre-arranged buyer or know it wouldn't be hard to find one. If your just "in it for the cash" then make a loot run. Don't get me wrong, had nothing against putting a bullet in someone's head if required, but often the security response to them finding their co-workers unconscious rather then dead was in our benefit.

In a 3rd edition game our decker wanted to upgrade their deck (were starting to get to the character levels of encountering UV systems and current just wasn't cut out for it) so we did a LOT of legwork and eventually found out that our best scenerio was to steal some high end Electronic warefare gear (ECCM, ED, etc) and trade off with a smuggler that could get what we wanted.


There was one time that a character of mine did some organ legging BUT I had a good reason. I forget the exact reason but there was a 'van chase' between our group and another runner team. I forget who was chasing who but I know we ended up in one of the wastelands and were exchanging heavy weapons fire. This apparently drew the attention of a nearby spirit; thankfully our mage quickly put up concealment or some other protection so its primary focus was the other van.... which it decided to do that "I take your souls to my metaplane to nom on" ability.. Their van rolled to a stop without even taking more then light damage and inside was all their gear as well as completely non-traumatized bodies full of cyberware. I never told the team what I did with them other then "i know a guy and i'll dispose of them" Though they did question (briefly) a month later when I gave out BattleTac to everyone.


But more related to 4th edition:
Our GMs tend to make NPCs behave in a logical sense. Its the information age after all and even if they are competing security firms they do have some form of information sharing. Thus we run that if a group develops a rep of taking down anyone in their path then security responds as though their lives depend on it with full lethal means immediately. Likewise if the group develops a rep of using non-lethal and low interference with the facility then their response is likewise with non-lethal.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2011, 08:19 AM) *
Not if you are using an Indirect Spell... smile.gif



That brings us back to the discussion about whether or not a guy inside a steel box is subject to a fireball or not.

If he isn't as most of us believe, then neither are RFID tags subject to an indirect "Wreck RFID tags" spell.
James McMurray
I wish my players would loot more, it's a great source of income for them as long as they're careful about it. But they're worried someone's going to come hunting them because they picked up an FN-HAR off of a bodyguard.

As far as how much runs are worth, I tend to follow the old SR Missions pay scale: ((3,000 + (2,000 * TR)) * (Number of PCs), where TR is their tier ad it's based on average party karma (tier, rating, average karma):
1 Green 0-19
2 Streetwise 20-59
3 Professional 60-99
4 Veteran 100-159
5 Elite 160-249
6 Prime 250+

I also sprinkle secondary sources of income into their runs, which so far they've passed up. In the last run they learned of a neurochemical company that was about to release something major but which had security that was more lax than it should be but either didn't want to check it out or didn't think of it. They were also offered a bribe by their target that would have netted them a little more than what they were being paid for the run but 3 out of 4 of them voted against taking the hit to their street cred and gaining notoriety.
squee_nabob
Can't you use a nonlinear junction detector and then hack the RFID tags?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 25 2011, 08:26 AM) *
That brings us back to the discussion about whether or not a guy inside a steel box is subject to a fireball or not.

If he isn't as most of us believe, then neither are RFID tags subject to an indirect "Wreck RFID tags" spell.


I disagree, on this particular level...
And the guy, inside the steel box (assuming it was completely sealed, which is bad for the guy inside, of course) would be subject if the Spell breached the Box... Simple as that.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2011, 10:27 AM) *
I disagree, on this particular level...


That's fine, all I'm saying is, if magic operates by a set of rules, then it operates by those rules in all cases.

You can't just decide that magic operates in one manner in one set of circumstances and in another manner in another set of circumstances.

Its why spirits summoned above the arctic circle last for 6 months at a time because they stick around "until sunset" or "until sunrise." Sunset is clearly defined as the sun being below the horizon (by how much depends on who you ask, but irrelevant to the discussion), not "every 12 hours." The spirit might resent being summoned above the arctic circle, but it knows the rules.

QUOTE
And the guy, inside the steel box (assuming it was completely sealed, which is bad for the guy inside, of course) would be subject if the Spell breached the Box... Simple as that.


Yes, it would have to penetrate the box first. However "the box" is not a valid target for "wreck RFID tags" and therefore is not subject to the damage and cannot be penetrated.
In any case "the box" is merely a barrier that is assumed to be sturdy enough to withstand the spell in question (either survive the fireball or be an invalid target).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 25 2011, 08:33 AM) *
That's fine, all I'm saying is, if magic operates by a set of rules, then it operates by those rules in all cases.

You can't just decide that magic operates in one manner in one set of circumstances and in another manner in another set of circumstances.


Of course not...

QUOTE
Its why spirits summoned above the arctic circle last for 6 months at a time because they stick around "until sunset" or "until sunrise." Sunset is clearly defined as the sun being below the horizon (by how much depends on who you ask, but irrelevant to the discussion), not "every 12 hours." The spirit might resent being summoned above the arctic circle, but it knows the rules.


And once you move away from the arctic circle, those rules do not apply. So the spirit would vacate based upon where he is, not where he was summoned from. Any player who tried to circumvent that would get a book upside the head. You want a long term spirit, use Long Term Binding.

QUOTE
Yes, it would have to penetrate the box first. However "the box" is not a valid target for "wreck RFID tags" and therefore is not subject to the damage and cannot be penetrated.
In any case "the box" is merely a barrier that is assumed to be sturdy enough to withstand the spell in question (either survive the fireball or be an invalid target).


Ahh... But since an object is rarely sealed, the magic can penetrate just fine. So a Gun (for example) would be a valid target for the aforementioned "Wreck RFID Tag" spell, since all the magic needs is a path of movement. And since it is an indirect spell, all I need to do is beat OR for that tag to go poof. Easy Peasy...

First. The box is always a valid target for Fireball. And Secondly, there is no real need to re-hash the muilti-page argument on How Indirect vs. Barrier works. In this case, there is no Barrier. There is an object with an RFID tag emplaced within/on it. Completely different thing. Arguing otherwise would completely negate any use for most detection spells (like any of the Detects, Catalog, Diagnose, I could go on...).
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2011, 11:08 AM) *
And once you move away from the arctic circle, those rules do not apply. So the spirit would vacate based upon where he is, not where he was summoned from. Any player who tried to circumvent that would get a book upside the head. You want a long term spirit, use Long Term Binding.


I never said anything about the spirit leaving the arctic circle. But yes, you are correct.

QUOTE
Ahh... But since an object is rarely sealed, the magic can penetrate just fine. So a Gun (for example) would be a valid target for the aforementioned "Wreck RFID Tag" spell, since all the magic needs is a path of movement. And since it is an indirect spell, all I need to do is beat OR for that tag to go poof. Easy Peasy...

First. The box is always a valid target for Fireball.


But not for Wreck RFID Tags, therefore cannot be penetrated. Unless the gun is the RFID tag, in which case the whole gun is ruined...or is it? See below.

QUOTE
And Secondly, there is no real need to re-hash the muilti-page argument on How Indirect vs. Barrier works.


Hence why I said, "This brings us back to the discussion about whether or not a guy inside a steel box is subject to a fireball or not."

QUOTE
In this case, there is no Barrier. There is an object with an RFID tag emplaced within/on it. Completely different thing. Arguing otherwise would completely negate any use for most detection spells (like any of the Detects, Catalog, Diagnose, I could go on...).


Is an object with an RFID tag a separate object from the RFID tag itself? Does magic know, does magic care? We can't speculate on this.

However:
If they are two distinct objects, then one needs to determine line of effect, which as generally stated, cannot pass through barriers without first breaking the barrier. Therefore the tag is not effected (unless you decide that magic can go around corners in contradiction to the line of sight rules).
If they are instead one object, in which case the whole object is effected by the Wreck spell, and takes damage directly, and in order to ruin the RFID tag you need to ruin the whole object (this is the case with cyber implants on a person: manabolt (and other spells) is (are) indiscriminate to the person regardless of meat or metal).

So it doesn't matter if we speculate on the one-object/two-object question, as it is irrelevant. You can't kill the RFID tag and still have the loot (can't have your cake and eat it too).
Modular Man
Why not use a "detect RFIDs" spell before attempting to destroy them? Also, there are HERF pistols, taking on even stealth or security RFIDs, especially if combined with nonlinear junction detectors. If in doubt, completely disassemble the item in question and then pick off the RFIDs. Erasing the datatrail ist not always a simple or quick task... cool.gif

My comment regarding parking the van in front of the building was rather sarcastic. I absolutely agree that this is neither stealthy nor subtle, as I said before. My initial thought about "over the top" was more fueled by mentioning of biometrical anti-theft measures. I don't really know about the new gear in "Attitude", but anti-theft measures from "Arsenal" start at 100 nuyen.gif (and way more than that, if you want the good stuff). So, outfitting every security guard with several of these "just in case" seems a little too expensive. Thus, it seemed extreme to me.

QUOTE ("Blog")
Our GMs tend to make NPCs behave in a logical sense. Its the information age after all and even if they are competing security firms they do have some form of information sharing. Thus we run that if a group develops a rep of taking down anyone in their path then security responds as though their lives depend on it with full lethal means immediately. Likewise if the group develops a rep of using non-lethal and low interference with the facility then their response is likewise with non-lethal.

I second this (and comments likewise). Nobody even likes Tamanous. Anyway, see my check list for looting (minor things). Leaving a stripped-to-the-raw-walls facility will (most likely) affect the mission or at least raise a lot of attention.

One of my characters also attempted to steal used cyberware. He was in really bad need of money, an assassin who had tried to kill him with a fingertig monowhip had just gotten killed and he was in charge of disposing of the body. So he cut of said fingertip before, later salvaging the piece of tech worth 3000 bucks. Desperate times...

I don't really like the idea of players stealing everything they can get. On the other hand, I'm not against it if done in small amounts and done properly. I just want to keep a world of shadowrunners consistent and strongly dislike the idea of throwing in unrealistic stuff just to keep the players of doing something. I apologize if I unreasonably accused somebody of that.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Modular Man @ Mar 25 2011, 11:41 AM) *
Why not use a "detect RFIDs" spell before attempting to destroy them? Also, there are HERF pistols, taking on even stealth or security RFIDs, especially if combined with nonlinear junction detectors. If in doubt, completely disassemble the item in question and then pick off the RFIDs. Erasing the datatrail ist not always a simple or quick task... cool.gif


Generally speaking one doesn't have the time or tools to do that on-site, and doing it in the safe house isn't smart. wink.gif
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