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Caadium
I'm the first to admit that I think my search-fu has failed me this time. I looked at books and thru here and did not find an answer to my question (which I find odd, so I'm assuming I just critically glitched the Search roll):

There is Gambling as a knowledge skill, but what skill covers it as an active skill?

For example, if you have characters getting involved in a gambling match, what do you have them roll to see who does better?
Hound
logic + intuition? maybe edge, if you feel like it, to represent luck. I don't think there's any skill that covers it.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Hound @ Apr 1 2011, 03:44 PM) *
I don't think there's any skill that covers it.


Mainly because games of chance aren't skill based. wink.gif
Summerstorm
Depends on the game, i think.

EVERY luck based-game CAN not be rolled of course. (I guess the GM just makes a luck-based roll and that's that)

But for poker, for example where skill does matter you could do it this way:

Make a "luck" roll as the gm and let those provide extra-dice in a cha+con roll, or maybe pit them in a "battle" with intuition+cha against each others skills. Thousand ways to modify, and not one reason to have fixed rules for that (We all know that someone would just max their potential for winning and keep on gambling until rich)
K1ll5w1tch
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 1 2011, 01:50 PM) *
Mainly because games of chance aren't skill based. wink.gif


Most casinos aren't about luck. Ask any professional gambler and they'll tell you theres a lot of skill in knowing the odds for any given bet and how to maximize you wins based on that. Also card games theres even more skill involved in knowing how to read people. I think alot of the given skill would help like con for (bluffing) sense motive to see if other players a bluffing. The knowledge skill can help in determing the odd at any given point to see if that bet is better at this point the game or not.

Or you can do what I've done in the past with gambling. Pull out a deck of cards and play some hands of whatever.
Adarael
Here's why:

If you play Blackjack, craps, roulette, slot machines, etc, you're using the Gambling knowledge skill, to figure odds and know how to bet.

If you are playing a human-interactive game, such Poker, you're using Con, with Gambling as a background skill.

The reason Blackjack is NOT in the second category is because figuring odds and knowing how to bet is vastly more important than bluffing.
Epicedion
A lot of RPGs try to nail down gambling, but gambling is a lot of things to a lot of people, and each game might be different.

Games like Blackjack, Roulette, Craps, etc, are all strict games of chance, as there are simple rules to follow to maximize your winning percentage. Those could be handled by simple dice rolls (or by playing the game itself if you wanted).

Opposed games like Poker are special -- for some people it's purely mechanical. Play the odds, make the right calls. Some people read the other players. Some bluff. And then there's all the luck involved. It's impossible to boil it all down into one attribute + skill combination.

If you have to make up gambling rules, I'd say that for games of chance you would roll Edge (or Edge + Edge) against some threshold, and gain/lose some percentage of your stake per net hit/loss, over some set time period.

For games that involve skill (poker), I'd say you should probably roll either Intuition, Logic, or Charisma (player's choice) + Edge, to represent whatever play style the character favors. Logic would be for a steady, mechanical player. Intuition would be for a gut-instinct / read the other players player. Charisma would be for a bluffing/misdirecting player.

Then have everyone roll every (time period), and redistribute wealth according to hits.

Extra penalties for glitch/critical glitch (critical glitch loses your whole stake to the house / top roller that round?).

I definitely wouldn't break it down into a per-hand kind of system. That would get old, fast.
Yerameyahu
Gambling isn't an active skill. You roll the dice, and give the house your money.

Besides, gambling is only a plot point in RPGs. Either it's too minor to matter (let them roll), or it's big enough (GM fiat). smile.gif
Epicedion
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 1 2011, 04:05 PM) *
Gambling isn't an active skill. You roll the dice, and give the house your money.

Besides, gambling is only a plot point in RPGs. Either it's too minor to matter (let them roll), or it's big enough (GM fiat). smile.gif


It does give me an idea for a run involving an underground casino for the SINless. Best way to case the joint would be to go blow some petty cash at the tables. I'd give it, say, 20 minutes before the team did something to piss someone off.
Makki
if you need some dice. You can just let every player at the table roll: Con + Gambling Knowledge skill + Edge. As it's not an important test, it doesn't have to work like the official game mechanics.
If you want to stick to the game mechanics, you can make it more complicated by rolling
Con+Cha, note hits
Gambling Knowledge + Int, note hits
first hits + second hist + edge.

this is for things, where you can actually influence the result. Poker especially. Won't make sense for Roullette so..
Yerameyahu
Or Logic, of course. If you're playing all the numbers. smile.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (Adarael @ Apr 1 2011, 04:05 PM) *
The reason Blackjack is NOT in the second category is because figuring odds and knowing how to bet is vastly more important than bluffing.


Bluffing who? In Blackjack you're always playing against the house.
Yerameyahu
That's what he said: odds in Blackjack are vastly (100%) more important than bluffing.
Adarael
Sloppy wording on my part. However, the house bluffing is still a bluff: the hole card isn't shown, but the dealer knows it.

(For two, if you're counting cards and being obvious about it, they'll ask you to leave. That's also bluffing, albeit of a slightly different variety. )
CanRay
And if you're playing against Mr. House?

Sorry, couldn't help it.
Caadium
So many other game have a simple mechanic or skill that covers gambling that I was surprised I didn't find something similar. I'm just glad to know that it wasn't my failed search-fu for something obvious.

The main reason it came up is that I'm making a character that is a face/throwing adept by the numbers, but a gambler by background. For me, if I put something in the background I just like to make sure that the numbers match the fluff. In other words, I'd hate to make a character that is a gambler, but have no ability that supports that (even if we never actually gamble in game).
Draco18s
Knowledge skill.

QUOTE
That's what he said:


Precisely, I was backing up his point.
Yerameyahu
Exactly, I was supporting your backup.
Makki
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 1 2011, 05:45 PM) *
And if you're playing against Mr. House?


House Rules!
redwulf25
QUOTE (Caadium @ Apr 1 2011, 04:34 PM) *
I'm the first to admit that I think my search-fu has failed me this time. I looked at books and thru here and did not find an answer to my question (which I find odd, so I'm assuming I just critically glitched the Search roll):

There is Gambling as a knowledge skill, but what skill covers it as an active skill?

For example, if you have characters getting involved in a gambling match, what do you have them roll to see who does better?


Depends what you're playing I suppose. Blackjack I'd use gambling as an active skill paired with logic for basic play, maybe use logic + mathematics knowledge skill to count cards (if done in a casino there are probably going to be tests for the house to spot this then the big ass troll comes to throw you out and break your arms).

Poker, Logic + mathematics for someone playing a solid game based on the odds, charisma + con to bluff, intuition + perception to read your opponents tells, agility + palming to have a card up your sleeve . . .

Poker could get as complicated as combat.
redwulf25
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 1 2011, 05:05 PM) *
A lot of RPGs try to nail down gambling, but gambling is a lot of things to a lot of people, and each game might be different.

Games like Blackjack, Roulette, Craps, etc, are all strict games of chance, as there are simple rules to follow to maximize your winning percentage. Those could be handled by simple dice rolls (or by playing the game itself if you wanted).


I wouldn't call Blackjack strictly a game of chance. Chance is a large factor but there's a lot of strategy about when to hit, stand, split, or double down. And then there's the matter of counting cards . . .
Draco18s
QUOTE (redwulf25 @ Apr 1 2011, 07:38 PM) *
I wouldn't call Blackjack strictly a game of chance. Chance is a large factor but there's a lot of strategy about when to hit, stand, split, or double down. And then there's the matter of counting cards . . .


All that really does is let you know what the statistics are and weigh your risk/reward properly. It does mean you have a greater than 1:1 loss:gain ratio, but it's still odds, probability, statistics, and luck.
Whipstitch
Blackjack is a game of rote behavior, for the most part.
CanRay
Baccarat! Now there's a gambler's game!

Or Caravan. nyahnyah.gif
Epicedion
Blackjack is dirt simple. There's an optimal decision depending on what your hand is and what the house is showing. This gives you some just-sub-50% odds, or so. Many casinos will allow you to bring in a blackjack cheat sheet explaining what to do when, and/or let the dealer inform you of your best option. Other players get upset when you deviate from what's expected. The house doesn't care, as they make money in the long run.

On that note, I imagine AR would make it very difficult to prevent card counting. I imagine that a blackjack table in 2070 would use a virtual card system certified by the UCAS/Seattle gambling board to ensure true randomization to prevent card counting.
CanRay
*Blinks* You're gatting Sabaac in my Shadowrun!
Epicedion
I never win at Caravan. Or Pazaak.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 2 2011, 07:41 AM) *
I never win at Caravan. Or Pazaak.

I'm AFB and can't remember whether RAW supports melon this, but my understanding of Edge is that it represents resourcefulness and hero-factor, not luck. Therefore it doesn't make sense to use it as a core component of a pure-luck resolution roll. If the matter at hand is a luck only consideration then the GM should either make up his own abstract roll or, better yet, just decide what happens. After all, he determines everything else that's non-PC and non-NPC, why should the order of the cards in the deck be different?
Aerospider
How about this for an abstracted poker system?

The game is broken down into hours of play. In each hour, each participant chooses a main adversary from the others. They roll Judge Intentions vs Con + Charisma (opposed) and whichever side wins gets X nuyen times the number of net hits, where X is a pre-determined value based on the stakes of the game (e.g. 10% of the maximum buy-in). Order of resolution can matter, so for each hour the participants roll Intuition + Gambling to achieve an Initiative Score as per combat rounds.
Yerameyahu
AFAIK, Edge *is* used for 'luck' situations, but it's hard to separate 'luck' from 'hero factor'. smile.gif Suppressive Fire, for example, uses Edge.
Caadium
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Apr 2 2011, 08:24 AM) *
How about this for an abstracted poker system?

The game is broken down into hours of play. In each hour, each participant chooses a main adversary from the others. They roll Judge Intentions vs Con + Charisma (opposed) and whichever side wins gets X nuyen times the number of net hits, where X is a pre-determined value based on the stakes of the game (e.g. 10% of the maximum buy-in). Order of resolution can matter, so for each hour the participants roll Intuition + Gambling to achieve an Initiative Score as per combat rounds.


Something like this is what I was surprised I didn't find in the books. If you have a game that is set up more like a tourney game you could make it an extended test with the threshold being when the tournament ends.

I understand that in actual gambling order of resolution can matter, but using the system you listed above (Con + Charisma vs Judge Intentions extended text(1 hour)) how would an initiative score affect things? Wouldn't it make sense to use the hits from the Intuition + Gambling Knowledge skill roll to add extra dice to the Charisma + Con roll?
Epicedion
QUOTE (Caadium @ Apr 2 2011, 11:49 AM) *
I understand that in actual gambling order of resolution can matter, but using the system you listed above (Con + Charisma vs Judge Intentions extended text(1 hour)) how would an initiative score affect things? Wouldn't it make sense to use the hits from the Intuition + Gambling Knowledge skill roll to add extra dice to the Charisma + Con roll?


This is probably exactly why there's no gambling system. Trying to make one you end up chasing every skill/attribute combination as being a factor.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Caadium @ Apr 2 2011, 04:49 PM) *
Something like this is what I was surprised I didn't find in the books. If you have a game that is set up more like a tourney game you could make it an extended test with the threshold being when the tournament ends.

I understand that in actual gambling order of resolution can matter, but using the system you listed above (Con + Charisma vs Judge Intentions extended text(1 hour)) how would an initiative score affect things? Wouldn't it make sense to use the hits from the Intuition + Gambling Knowledge skill roll to add extra dice to the Charisma + Con roll?

Order would be important if two players took on the same target - the first might do so well that there wouldn't be much left for the second guy to win.
redwulf25
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 2 2011, 01:37 AM) *
Blackjack is dirt simple. There's an optimal decision depending on what your hand is and what the house is showing. This gives you some just-sub-50% odds, or so. Many casinos will allow you to bring in a blackjack cheat sheet explaining what to do when, and/or let the dealer inform you of your best option. Other players get upset when you deviate from what's expected. The house doesn't care, as they make money in the long run.

On that note, I imagine AR would make it very difficult to prevent card counting. I imagine that a blackjack table in 2070 would use a virtual card system certified by the UCAS/Seattle gambling board to ensure true randomization to prevent card counting.


Hackers and technomancers would figure out a way to do it (assuming they didn't just make it deal winners).
Dumori
I'd roll gambling knowledge skill plus edge for all. Not that it's ever coem up where the assumed 1:1 isn't said by me. Casing a joint ect I assue its a 1:1 situation any lose or gain after that is eatten by lifestyle costs.
longbowrocks
Does this gambling involve dice? Six sided dice? If it doesn't that might be a good change to make, since your table's power gamer can then be the deus ex machina.
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