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Smiley
I been looking around and i've seen a few anecdotes that made me guffaw but i know we can do better. I'll start.

Myself and Cap'n Dave were in a run raiding a small-to-middling corp bunker. The GM was being a pedantic MUDWHISTLE so we, of course, had to get even somehow. Both he and I had previously procured large quantities of C-12 (don't ask). While the MUDWHISTLE was off pedant-ing with another player about dice rolls or sump'n, we proceeded to hide small bundles allll over the facility like highly-explosive Easter eggs. We lifted up potted plants, we rubbed it into the carpet, we put it into file cabinets, and so on and so on. As we dusted off (and were greeted by the biggest street gang EVER, i might add) we asked HIM to roll perception. As you might have guessed, the target number for percieving a large explosion and the resulting rain of charred office equpiment is pretty miniscule. As i remember, Dave had to detonate the dashed thing from a DocWagon stretcher, after the ensuing gang war. I was leaning on a lamppost (the only one left), smoking a cigarette, sharpening my katana and whisting REM's "It's the end of the world as we know it."

The GM subsequently developed a small eye twitch. They're working on his dosage.
Capt. Dave
Good times...good times. That GM is now a ghoul in my campaign. (yes, willingly)
Kagetenshi
I really hope that wasn't a nice katana. You know you aren't supposed to sharpen those things, right? It screws them up something fierce.

~J
Smiley
Meh. It was mostly for effect, anyway. The thing was Di-Koted.
Austere Emancipator
How much of the C-12 was there, exactly? To make an office building, let alone a bunker, blow to pieces with such small bundles would take shitloads. Plus the bundles would have to be really close to each other, as in low 2-digit centimeters, unless you also had shitloads of detonators (possible, of course).

I'm far too pedantic a mudwhistle (whatever that is) to let that kind of thing to happen in my games. wink.gif

Of course, my group has used a quarter-ton car bomb once, and blew up a large liquid gas container on another occasion, and I didn't think there was anything wrong with that. *Shrug* It happens.
Squire
Hmm.

Based on that story I am given certain perceptions that lead me to suspect that neither the players nor the GM understand the GMs role in a RPG.

See, if you want your character to do something, it doesn't happen unless you tell the GM about it.

Most RPGs (including SR) are not GM vs. Players, they're the GM telling a story to players and presenting them with challanges. The GMs measure of success is whether or not (s)he and the players had a good time, not "beating" the players.

Now don't get me wrong, play it anyway you like- it's a game and if you prefer to modify the rule or the spirit of the game to suit your groups preferences, feel free.
Capt. Dave
Well... it was on the order of 25 kilograms, which makes for a 60D blast at -12/m (not including the Demolitions:5 roll I made).
It wasn't that the whole building was destroyed...but that part of it was. I applaud our actions as creative.
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (Squire @ Mar 23 2004, 03:48 PM)

Based on that story I am given certain perceptions that lead me to suspect that neither the players nor the GM understand the GMs role in a RPG.


I can understand how you might see it that way, but trust me, I as a GM understand fully. We just wanted to do something that he would not allow us to do, without giving a decent reason. If it wasn't in his carefully thought-out plan, down to the letter, it couldn't happen. We just wanted him to be able to deal with things and come up with a story not in his guideline.

GMs HAVE to be able to act spontaneously. What if a runner does something you didn't plan for? Just saying "no" makes it no longer an RPG, but a scripted play.
TheScamp
QUOTE
I really hope that wasn't a nice katana. You know you aren't supposed to sharpen those things, right? It screws them up something fierce.

Well, you are supposed to sharpen them, but the process is not exactly suited to leaning against a lamp post. smile.gif
kevyn668
I think he's saying they were rebeling against a GM that railroaded them. I suppose that's one way to go about dealing with it....

So tell me, was this GM new?
ShadowGhost
I agree with Capn' Dave - a GM should guide players to where he wants them to go, but not shoehorn them into a tight little script that gives them only True/False or choice of A, B or C only.

As a GM I learned long ago with my chummers that trying to plot a tightly scripted scenario was nearly useless.


If I said, "Do you go in the front door, rear door, service entrance, or delivery entrance?"; one player will decide to climb to the nearest open window/balcony on the third floor while another levitates to the roof, and a third will enter from the sewers.

Trying to force square pegs into round holes kills half the fun of a game. Ya always want to give players lotsa rope to play with... preferably enough to hang themselves biggrin.gif
Smiley
QUOTE (kevyn668)
I think he's saying they were rebeling against a GM that railroaded them. I suppose that's one way to go about dealing with it....

So tell me, was this GM new?

He WAS new. We put a couple miles on him.
Austere Emancipator
For almost any application, it's better to use bigger chunks of explosives. My group often carries satchel charges (10kg C-12 with detonators) into "hot" runs that they can use for whatever purpose. They're especially fun when levitated around.

I've never even been "shocked and awed" (since making the GM sob isn't really the right term, like Squire implied) by that sort of thing. I mean, it's just explosives. Boom. When it's really big, or when it kills dozens of people, that's different. But you got to keep your perspective: For example, I'm sure you've all seen pictures of the train car ripped open in Madrid. IIRC, that was done by a large backpack full of what passes as "Commercial Explosives", maybe 20-40kg. The buses you see torn to shreds in Israel are generally done with 10-40kg of "Commercial Explosives".

It's not the size, and all that.

[Edit]And while I completely agree that the GM has to be able to deal with new situations and PCs that don't act like he thought they would, not telling me what your characters do wouldn't fly in my games. If you tell me you carry that 25kg of C-12 on the run, and then tell me you rig it up in the target building, that's fine. But if you tried to tell me afterwards "Yeah, I set up 25kg of C-12 in the building, I just didn't want to tell you about it" you wouldn't get to stay in my group for long.[/Edit]
Kagetenshi
I'd hate to meet someone capable of carrying around a backpack with 40 kilos of explosives who was able to do it casually enough that no one paid attention to him or her.

~J
Smiley
OK. Let's back up.
Game terms:
25 Kilos = 60 Deadly
Chunky salsa, people.

Also, there was someone wondering what a pedantic mudwhistle was. If you look closely, you can find one very very near this post.
kevyn668
QUOTE
Smiley Posted on Mar 23 2004, 09:04 PM
  QUOTE (kevyn668)
I think he's saying they were rebeling against a GM that railroaded them. I suppose that's one way to go about dealing with it....

So tell me, was this GM new? 


He WAS new. We put a couple miles on him. 


Congratulations. You bullied a new GM.

Pendantic Mudwhistle = Asshole?
Smiley
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
But if you tried to tell me afterwards "Yeah, I set up 25kg of C-12 in the building, I just didn't want to tell you about it" you wouldn't get to stay in my group for long.[/Edit]

I weep.
I may eschew the game forever.
Woe is me.
Etc.
kevyn668
Oh yeah, I almost forgot: welcome to Dumpshock. smile.gif
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
But if you tried to tell me afterwards "Yeah, I set up 25kg of C-12 in the building, I just didn't want to tell you about it" you wouldn't get to stay in my group for long

I agree, if that was our standard practice. This was merely to see how our GM could think on his toes. Not well, it turned out. Had we told him, the answer would be "no". I mean, if we wanted to take a potted plant out, the answer would be "no".
Anything not pre-planned = "no".
Smiley
Another example:
The disappearing wall.
Why don'cha share THAT little gem?
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I'd hate to meet someone capable of carrying around a backpack with 40 kilos of explosives who was able to do it casually enough that no one paid attention to him or her.

Regardless, that's what seems to happen. On one occasion, a suicide bomber had 60 (yes, sixty) kilos of explosives strapped on his body. He was, however, harassed a bit about it by the busdriver, got anxious, and blew it up in the doorway. He had managed to get to the bus stop unharassed, however.

QUOTE (Smiley)
25 Kilos = 60 Deadly

Yeah, that's a lot of damage. w00t. It's also completely harmless 6 meters away by canon. And I'm quite aware of just how much damage explosives do. I'm simply not impressed. Seeing a lot of shit blow up does that to you.

QUOTE
I weep.

Thing is, I'm extremely surprised you have found GMs that let you get away with that. I mean, the GM has to know exactly what everybody is carrying at all times, what is where, everything. If he doesn't, he simply can't do his job, which is to run the world.

Generally speaking, there are better ways of dealing with a GM that tries to railroad that horribly. Based on what's been said so far, it seems there would have been in this case as well. But that's all we can say, because we don't really know what went down.
kevyn668
QUOTE
Thing is, I'm extremely surprised you have found GMs that let you get away with that. I mean, the GM has to know exactly what everybody is carrying at all times, what is where, everything. If he doesn't, he simply can't do his job, which is to run the world.


You forgot to add: Muw-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! vegm.gif
cykotek
The closest I've ever come to sobbing was when I had a player decide to spread 5 kilos from the trunk of his car while speeding down I-5 at over 170kph with Lone Star in hot pursuit. I believe the death toll from that one action was a "mere" 87 people in a 61 car pileup. They made the news real fast with that one.

Also the "I'm going to jump out the rear door of a stopped elevated train onto the tracks. Then hang by my fingertips in broad daylight from the tracks while transit cops shoot at me" event didn't exactly thrill. He thought he could run and hide when he was the only one with a balance tail in a 9 square block area.
Capt. Dave
As to the C-12 - Oh, he knew we had it.
Smiley
You're right, you see right through me.
What i REALLY want is a GM just like you.

So... can we move on now?
Capt. Dave
Indeed, lets. It's all in the past now, anyway. I GM now, and everyone seems to like it better that way, including our old GM
kevyn668
We are moving on. Its called "thread drift". If you'll note, some people are putting up their "Bad things We've Done as SRs", and some have struck up side conversations. And some of us aren't contributing much at all.
Austere Emancipator
Sure we can. However, I do feel a poll coming, to see just how many people feel that way about GMs.

Perhaps tomorrow morning...
Smiley
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Sure we can. However, I do feel a poll coming, to see just how many people feel that way about GMs.

Perhaps tomorrow morning...

Oh heavens, no! Not a POLL!!

If there was a poll, i might have to admit how horribly WRONG we were and un-explode the building! I might be forced to bow to your superior SR skills! I suck i suck i suck i suck
kevyn668
Wouldn't be the first time that's happened around here... wink.gif
Capt. Dave
Well, in any case, there's a poll up.
blakkie
To drag the thread back on track, well sort of...i managed to over a series of sessions manuver the GM so my D&D character was collecting a 10% tax on all -party- loot. Effectively my character gained a dobule extra slice of the loot splitting Technically more, but a second share was the negotiation point to keep the rest of the party from ganking me outright.

It didn't involve me doing something behind the GM's back, it was all outfront. It wasn't a new GM either. When i sprung the logic on him he just sheepishly started banging his head on the table. He hadn't seen it coming, but he was fair enough that he couldn't argue the point.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Smiley @ Mar 23 2004, 04:27 PM)
i might have to admit how horribly WRONG we were and un-explode the building!

You were. Get over it. Nothing happens in a game without the GM knowing it. Let me repeat that again: nothing. Why? because it is the very FUCKING DEFINITION OF A GM.

Hell, when you get shot, why don't you just say "Nyah nyah, he missed me" and ignore what the dice say?

You had a sucky GM. There were good ways and bad ways of handling that. You chose one of the bad ways, and you expect sympathy? ohplease.gif

~J
Smiley
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Nothing happens in a game without the GM knowing it. Let me repeat that again: nothing. Why? because it is the very FUCKING DEFINITION OF A GM.

OK, and when you DO do something exactly like you say everone's supposed to and the GM utterly negates it? It doesn't pan out like he expects so he UN-does the whole thing?

Oh, but wait. The GM is the master of the fucking universe. He can do ANYTHING.

So my GM is telling you to sit on it and twirl. Guess you'd better get to it.
Kagetenshi
No, that's when you find a new GM, or have an OOC conversation about his or her gameplay style. If you stick with the GM despite his or her refusal to change the style, then yes, start twirling.

~J
Dashifen
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
No, that's when you find a new GM, or have an OOC conversation about his or her gameplay style. If you stick with the GM despite his or her refusal to change the style, then yes, start twirling.

~J

*clapping*
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)


Hell, when you get shot, why don't you just say "Nyah nyah, he missed me" and ignore what the dice say?


I should explain again, it was done as a lesson in spontaneous thinking. We followed game rules exactly. I, nor any of my teammates, make a habit of making stuff up. As it turned out, we later discussed how he might have handled the situation differently. He listened. He then tried playing a character, and found it to be much more fun than spending hours a day making a Point A - Point B - Point C
script with no options. HE has more fun. WE have more fun. It was a learning experience and everyone is the better for it. I'd say that's a pretty good way of dealing with it.
toturi
QUOTE (Smiley @ Mar 24 2004, 06:00 AM)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 23 2004, 04:47 PM)
Nothing happens in a game without the GM knowing it. Let me repeat that again: nothing. Why? because it is the very FUCKING DEFINITION OF A GM.

OK, and when you DO do something exactly like you say everone's supposed to and the GM utterly negates it? It doesn't pan out like he expects so he UN-does the whole thing?

Oh, but wait. The GM is the master of the fucking universe. He can do ANYTHING.

So my GM is telling you to sit on it and twirl. Guess you'd better get to it.

My gaming group has a good way of getting around a GM. We do this: Either give us what we want and do as we say or we'll take away your goodies from the other games(we play more than one)/refuse to trade or demand to ake back our Magic/L5R/etc cards or refuse to come to the next game session or...

Edit: Or not hold back during the next regularly scheduled sparring session
Solstice
Wow what a couple of complete asshats. I've been lucky enough to have players that are nothing like these guys. Learn how to play RPGs then come back and post.

You would be very wise to listen to Kagtenshi.
ShadowPhoenix
the only time I ever countermanded a GM was in a Vampire Game, he had this one character that would not die, and he wanted us to kill the character, nothing we could do would kill the guy, so I went even so far as to say that my car turns into a mech and blasts the damn vampire into batty bits, and he still said no. we gave up and went back to our regular GM, he offered, we totally bowled his game over, because he railroaded it and made it so True/False that it was impossible otherwise, so we simply made crazy shit up in response.

otherwise I hold to the tenant, that GM is god, if you were to come up to me at the end of the ordeal and tell me to roll perception cause my building just went foosh, I'd tell you that apparently you'd hit the detenator without setting the charges, and foosh, there goes your characters, confettified. If you were new to my game, a reprimand would come, then an expulsion from my gaming table. GM is the law, if you don't like the law, move to another table biggrin.gif

hard to get sympathy points for sticking it to a GM when a lot of us here do GM or at least understand the GM's place enough to say "that's not the way things go!" if he let you do it, just shows more of his freshness. Hopefully under careful tutilage from the new GM of yours he removes his head from arse and can GM a few for you, but definitely sounds like that game night was hell on everyone.
Shockwave_IIc
Side Note: isn't it also the Gm's role to be fair? just a thought
ShadowPhoenix
totally, the GM should be fair, that's why they are sometimes called Judges or Referees, they are there to maintain balance in the game, between the challengers and the players, and making sure things are players according to the rules and to what is appropriate. Some GM's have variations on fair though nyahnyah.gif
Diesel
I try to be...if I'm the only one smiling, the game is bad. Well, most cases. biggrin.gif
Digital Heroin
Not that I wept, but I was a bit thrown by the player whos character declared to the group she was their leader, while lighting a stick of dynamite from a cigarette... was more thrown by the fact, instead of trying to snuff ouf the dynamite, one of the characters just shot her in the head...
Smiley
QUOTE (ShadowPhoenix @ Mar 23 2004, 07:13 PM)
the only time I ever countermanded a GM was in a Vampire Game, he had this one character that would not die, and he wanted us to kill the character, nothing we could do would kill the guy, so I went even so far as to say that my car turns into a mech and blasts the damn vampire into batty bits, and he still said no. we gave up and went back to our regular GM, he offered, we totally bowled his game over, because he railroaded it and made it so True/False that it was impossible otherwise, so we simply made crazy shit up in response.

At least someone sees what we're trying to say here. As previously stated, this was NOT A COMMON PRACTICE. Sometimes things get so nailed down that the only real response is to say, "Not only am i NOT going to follow the script you have for me, i'm going to change your lines, too."

YES, it has to be fair. YES, your players are going to be doing things you haven't specifically thought of. So if and when you dig your heels in a refuse to let anything unforseen happen, don't be surprised when people MAKE something unforseen happen.
Digital Heroin
In reference to the railroading GM... if a GM is out to do what -they- want and nothing more, and it's obvious, and they won't bend... kick them to the curb. I've been in a few roleplaying groups where GMs like this didn't only lose players from their game, they were kicked out of the group entirely.
Smiley
QUOTE (Digital Heroin)
In reference to the railroading GM... if a GM is out to do what -they- want and nothing more, and it's obvious, and they won't bend... kick them to the curb. I've been in a few roleplaying groups where GMs like this didn't only lose players from their game, they were kicked out of the group entirely.

Looks like all the reasonable people don't come out until after dark.
kevyn668
QUOTE
Smiley  Posted on Mar 24 2004, 12:46 AM   
QUOTE
(ShadowPhoenix)
the only time I ever countermanded a GM was in a Vampire Game, he had this one character that would not die, and he wanted us to kill the character, nothing we could do would kill the guy, so I went even so far as to say that my car turns into a mech and blasts the damn vampire into batty bits, and he still said no. we gave up and went back to our regular GM, he offered, we totally bowled his game over, because he railroaded it and made it so True/False that it was impossible otherwise, so we simply made crazy shit up in response.


At least someone sees what we're trying to say here. As previously stated, this was NOT A COMMON PRACTICE. Sometimes things get so nailed down that the only real response is to say, "Not only am i NOT going to follow the script you have for me, i'm going to change you lines, too."


Okay, pal. We get your point. You just weren't clear in your initial post. Its not our fault you come off as a GM-basher.

Take a cue from you pal, Cpt Dave. Remain calm. Explain your position rationaly. Understand that no one is attacking you (well, most of the time). Posters may attack your ideas, but thats the deal.

Its a shame, really. The thread had potential... frown.gif
Smiley
All right, all right. I see how it came out, after looking back over everything. Truce, no more mudwhistling.

I thought the thing had potential too, but i guess i lost in the the translation. Maybe another time.
Digital Heroin
QUOTE (Smiley)
QUOTE (Digital Heroin @ Mar 23 2004, 07:50 PM)
In reference to the railroading GM... if a GM is out to do what -they- want and nothing more, and it's obvious, and they won't bend... kick them to the curb. I've been in a few roleplaying groups where GMs like this didn't only lose players from their game, they were kicked out of the group entirely.

Looks like all the reasonable people don't come out until after dark.

Define resonable... because if you define it as completely undermining what a GM is, and rationalizing it as proving a point, then you should re-evaluate your logic... I'm not talking one step, out... the times a person has been kicked out they have run more than one game, railroaded consistantly, been talked to aside from the game, been offered help running a game, and basically said "no, it's my game, if you don't like it don't play" so we simply extended their thinking.
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