What makes Qabbala an overpowered tradition? I've heard it said here quite a bit, and can't find anything in the book that indicates it being better than anything else. Of course I'm not a fan of possession traditions, so I might be a bit biased.

Hm... never heard that.

Can't see any overpowered element in there (more than any other magical tradition). Ok, Logic based is a TINY bit easier to boost, IF you are willing to take a magic hit. But the rest doesn't seem bad.

I would argue that Voodoo might be a bit out of whack because of their spirit list (and the fact that they have the coolest watchers *g*.)

But Quabbalists? Eh... just a task spirit, no special restrictions...

And Krav Maga isn't that bad either. (Most people just find the aim as free action weird) And every GM would let you learn that as part of other self-build "Krav Maga"-like trainings.

That was the same vibe I got from Qabbala. It's not baf, but I don't really think there's anything in there that's better than anything else, heck I double checked Task spirits to see if they did something scay and they seemed to be spirits.

Dumpshock is crazy for Possession traditions. It builds better with crunch. My group couldn't live without their materialization spirits, so it has yet to be an issue.
And how about Jewish people, instead of Jews?

Task spirits are the Swiss pocket knife of magic. It's like free skillsofts. Well, except for combat skills, you'd need Guardian spirits for that.
Oh wait, Voodoo has both.

I'm with Summerstorm on this one : Voodoo is hands-down the best possession tradition in Street Magic, that spirit selection is just nuts.

Vodoo is insane.. you can get yourself craftet every single item by simply take a sin-less people to a shop.

They will get high Agility and the skill from your Spirit. So you let them Craft a special Weapon, just to Hand it to the Guardian Spirit-possesd guy next door, and you have a decent Sam at your command.. And not only a good Fighter, he has Antimagic too.. and Astral Combat. And you need to sneek? give him Concealment too!

HAve no Weapon? just take Natural Weapon.

Vodoo has the most Options i think.

Until some SINless fella's troll brother shows up looking for his kin with a street gang. If any of my players tried this, I think I'd have a field day.

I think in shadowrun there are enough people nobobody will miss..

sure you cant just pick anyone from the street.. but not picking the guy with gang-signs would be a good start.
if Possible i would take a homeless drug-addicted Person out of the park.. you dont even have to be there to Choose, and nobody will ask if he walks away, and if somebody ask, a good influence-spell will clear the Problem.

But how do you know that nobody is an actual nobody and not a) a KSAF reporter in disguise? b) a powerful mage working on an Ordeal? c) a crazy relative of some Yak boss? d) a powerful Free Spirits testing the Souls of Men fairy tale style? e) A shape changing, mage eating paracritter? f) a mega-corp looking to ensnare a Possesion tradition mage? g)anything else Dumpshock can think of?

To assume that everything will go according to plan when picking up some random NPC, is assuming your GM is very kind. Let me know how that assumption works out.

Just take the Dependent flaw and put your slacker sibling to some use.

Sure, roll a ridiculously low probability (a 1 on a d1000), and if you "win", you get one of those. Seriously, it might be good for a laugh once in a while, but IF PCs want to abuse homeless/sinless then send some vigilantes or other runners after them, not something like that.

On topic: I'm playing a Quabbala Mysad at the moment, and I have to say, while posession is nice, their spirit list is in no way overpowered.

Your options for such things are limitless. Sure, you can just give them some random NPCs to dispense with, but there are so many fun, creative ideas to come up with, there is no reason to limit yourself because it seems impractical. A Voodoo tradition mage culling the local homeless population for his mass production schemes is equally implausible, but somebody thought it and there it is. Heck, that seems like a neat adventure!

You have to keep your players on their toes; keep thinking and creating. It's that sort of thing that keeps the overpowered traditions in check.

This might not be too grimdark enough, but why not just hire the bums for 500Y a month? You'll get people to flock to your sweatshop then. Compared to the cost of summoning the spirits (either though binding or the opportunity cost of a mage using his unbound spirits), it's nothing. You also don't get people's brothers trying to get revenge or whatever so you cut down on the chance of PCs wrecking up the place.

Oh come on. You are a Voodoun (or a Mambo) PRIEST. A Leader, an authority figure. People should be honored to be the vessel of a lesser loa and help fullfilling the plans of the greater ones (which speak through you... oh mighty priest).

Tsetse.. PAYING people?

And yeah... Voodoo is charisma based *g*.

Isn't it obvious why the Jews are overpowered? Their spaceships are like 3 times the size of the Goyam's!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YgxI9W_3qU

And, oy, such a deal they got on them! Their cousin ran the spacefighter dealership and...

...

I am so going to Hell for that one...

At least with Krav Maga, using Israelis rather then Jews would be more correct IMO. This as there are Jews that are not Israeli citizens (and disagree strongly with Israeli policies and such). Conflating the two would be a bit like claiming all Muslims are Iranians or whatever is the Muslim boogeyman nation right now.

Sorry if I offended, The comment about "Jews being overpowered" has popped up on here a few times with Krav Maga and Qabbala cited as the reasons. I finally got curious enough to put some thought into looking at Qabbala, and was wondering why it was so good. I based my subheading off the comments that led me here figuring someone would get the joke. I did not mean to offend and am well aware of the real world origins of both Krav Maga and Qabbala.

Heh, not offendend, just OCD pedantic from time to time

Could be OP because it gives gun toting street sammies another mechanic to work with when optimizing their characters. A mechanic that would be all about melee if not for the Israeli version. Then again, it's not that bad.

I don't see how any specific tradition could be considered overpowered, since you can largely create your own tradition and spirit selection upon character creation, as long as you have a marginally reasonable explanation...

Possesion is seen to be overpowered.

Two reasons:
First: Vodoo gets the best combination of spirits. So every time there is a debate about it you are dealing with a vodoo mage.
Second: Mages can do a lot of shit. But they tend do be squishy (because they lack BP for reaktion, Body and do not have many cyber enhancements).
A possession mage can get around this problem with one complex action. (Having one initiation)

This means he is a spellcaster (in the worst case, no bound spirits) without the possibility to summon.
But that still more mage than an adept and it is mage enought for most runs. (Yeah, you do not get the near indestructible drones called spirits, but if shit hits the fan, you are able to take over the opposition)

(I personaly dislike possession, because there is close to no defance against spirit takeover. So a mage could just go next to you Astral and command a spirit in your body. Yes there is also no strategie against the force 6 guardion spirit materalising and ramming a spike trough your back, like the T-10000. (But you might get a suprise test)

I would think also that the gov't or other high-power forces would be on the lookout for this kind of thing - with the recent unpleasantness with the Brotherhood and all that...*

*disclaimer: I may not actually know what I'm talking about wrt this

Lucio Fulci made quite a name for himself using plot lines just like this.

I rarely get involved with magic, and Possession even less, but I thought they still got spirits, in all their 'super-drone' glory. They just need vessels, right? If anything, they're worse in a vessel than a regular spirit, I though. (With tradeoffs, of course.)

The only thing that really makes possession overpowered is that it breaks the usual rule of being unable to attack physical targets from astral space. A mage who summons a spirit to possess an enemy not only gains an ally, but takes out that enemy, for the fight. That's the part I would house rule, if I ever ran a game with possession traditions. Maybe something like unwilling victims have to be prepared vessels, or at least rendered helpless first. Possession should not be that easy.

That does sound ridiculous. … Ah, I see: it's Force*2 vs. Int+Will, and the only penalty for the spirit failing is a wasted Complex Action.

this seems reasonable.

I once asked my GM if I could build a fully automatic grenade launcher. He said "Sure. Everyone you fight will have three."
As the current GM of the game, I like to keep this in mind when someone wants to try something overpowered. I remind the group of this fact, and I let the group some to a consensus for president involving something like this. It's usually quite reasonable.

Instead you should plough ahead with your plan and buy "immunity:grenades".
Also, no need to build one. Look up "ITS Gonryu". I think it's in WAR!

Eh, I dunno. I agree that anything the PCs have, the NPCs can have, but not every NPC. If the sammie has an Ares Alpha, then those spec ops teams might have them too, but not the local gang or the mall security guard. I would rather disallow something than break the verisimilitude of the game world just to escalate things up to the level of one PC's overpowered option. I think a better option would be to give the group harder runs, rather than make the entire world get tougher in lockstep with them.

Again, anything you have, the bad guys have three.
"I'm immune to grenades! Ha, ha. No one's ever thought of that before... what do you mean my grenades do no damage?"


It's not that everyone in the world has them, but everyone in the world the PC's deal with. It's that escalation thing they talk about at the end of Batman. As you go up in pay scale, so does your opposition, and if you've discovered a thing, you'd better believe anyone you have to take on whose nuyen is worth your time has discovered that thing too.
Much like whenever one of my players manages to actually read one of the books and thinks she's discovered a cool loophole no one has thought of before, it's something I've discovered a year ago and something that has been discussed ad nausea on Dumpshock for years longer. Subsequesntly, to imagine no one else in the Sixth World has thought of it simply because it's not in the BBB isn't practical.

Besides, I rarely have to carry out the threat of such a proposition, as the players are usually quick to thwart it themselves:
Player 1: "So, if I'm a Possession mage, the only defense bad guys get is a Force x 2 v. Will + Int. Sweet!"
Me: "Yep. Group, do we agree that whenever you meet a Possession mage I get to control your character if I roll higher on Force x 2 v. Will + Int?"
Group: "Wait! There has to be a optional rule! Let's talk about this!"

I think it should still be possible for a spirit to posses a unprepared host. But it should be a hard task.
Just give it a -5 dice pool modifier for unprepeard vessels. So a Force 5 Spirit will have a hard time getting this net hit.
But at least keep it an option for Free Spirits. The evil over spirit taking hold of one of the hereos is just "classic".
(Or make it like the mind control spell. Every Force rounds, the host gets to roll willpower to reduce the hits of the spirit.)

(Spirits should also spend edge if summoned or bound. Edge of spirits should be halved.)

Tweaking the Rules :
Alternative Possession Mechanics
If the gaming group considers the basic
Possession rules too powerful or unbalanced with
their play-style, Possession may be adjusted by
implementing any or all of the following changes:
• Modify the Possession Test for inanimate vessels/
objects to Force x 2 (Object Resistance x 2).
• Allow Bound spirits to only possess vessels that
are present at the time of their binding. This
limits use of Possession as an attack power to
Summoned spirits.
• Rule that a conjurer may only command a spirit
to possess a vessel which is within the conjurer’s
line of sight at the time.
• Rule that Possessed living vessels may actively
resist possession in a manner similar to a Mental
Manipulation spell (p. 202, SR4). Every (Force)
Combat Turns, the victim may spend a Complex
Action to shake off the spirit’s control. The victim
rolls a Willpower (+ Banishing) Test; each
hit reduces the net hits on the spirit’s original
Possession Test. If the possessing spirit’s net
hits are reduced to 0, the spirit is expelled from
the target.

LOL, love the title. Jews have always been overpowered. History proves this time and time again.

Mesh

PS, there's no negative connotation associated with "Jews" as opposed to "Jewish people" despite the work of the nazis. We are Jews.

And the spirit can't try again on that vessel for a day.

The suggestion seems to be that the possession attempt is likely to succeed. But remember that a Force 3 spirit has roughly a 50% chance to succeed against an ordinary living metahuman vessel. so, half the time the possession attempt is a wasted effort. If you are talking about higher Force spirits, it doesn't matter whether they are Possession or Materialization tradition... they are bad-ass opponents.

Ah, I didn't see that. Still, they can try once per person in the opposing force; odds are good they'll neutralize one and 'replace' him with a stronger-than-normal spirit enemy. Hmm. It's a pretty good trick, despite the risk.

Yes, I agree the possession spirit can keep trying other NPCs. Meanwhile, though, the materialized spirit is Fearing/Confusing/Engulfing/...ing.

I have always maintained that possession traditions are not particularly more powerful than materialization traditions, and that magic in general is overpowered only if the GM (or the player) doesn't enforce the built-in checks and balances that keep magic under control.

I think I'm in the minority on that point, though.

you are not alone

For out-and-out loopholes, that's probably a good way to deal with it. Any shoddy exploit that the PCs use, the NPCs can use on them. General skills and gear, though, I would give to NPCs that logically would have it, whether the PCs do the same or not.

I often quote Dr. Egon Spengler on the issue of rules: "The door swings both ways."

Yeah, this is how I feel about it. Even in comic book escalation scenarios the mooks by and large remain mooks. For example, in the Punisher and Batman films escalation took the form of hired Prime Runner types like the Russian and Joker. Beyond that the "typical" bad guys simply couldn't gin up any way to push back harder. At least not within their at hand resources and current skill sets, anyway.

In one of my groups games, we had the option to hire an NPC-mage or two to replace our mage temporarily, who was going to get some long-term ware/essence revitalization done.

One of the options was a pair of voodoo sisters. Thematically, one was a regular voodoo tradition mage, and the other was just a normal pnon-awakened person who was trained to help out, and work as a willing living vessel for possession by the voodoun. They came as a pair, and it kind of avoided the whole freebie 'turn an enemy into an ally' thing - they were both fun to have around, and one would just occasionally get freaky/creepy and be able to shrug off bullets with their bare skin.

It was kind of a neat twist; fixing some of the problems with possession being powerful with fluff and thematics. Kinda wish that game was still going.

Definitely not alone...