I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. When I see a rule that flat out states that it applies to all situations and then see someone not applying it to all situations, that's a house rule IMO.

And again, if it works for your group, there's nothing wrong with that.

No suprise rolls were required...
And we agree to disagree.

Mäx didn't mention he used the same house rule as you, so I had to ask.

Okey disregard my previous comment, i miss understood a part on the surprise rules, but i do have to comment on your base reason for your assumption of your PC:s winning on suprise.

A special force member has 18 dice for that surprise test, but for SAS operative i would if, i was GM, use the stats for lietenant(if i didn't build them as a invidual NPC:s) so that would be 20 dice for suprise test.

Yeah, but not knowing where or how it would happen should hinder their response. Team A should be fine - let's say for the sake of argument they're all using emplaced HMGs or auto grenade launches, or other similarly overpowered weaponry so that firing though Team B is physically not going to be a problem.

Team C figures something might go down, but that shouldn't give them carte blanche to have +6 on all surprise tests. For instance, if there was Runner Team D, rendered invisible and silent by magic, crouching on the top of the elevator, and who decides to shoot one of the Team C members in the top of the head... well, Team C shouldn't get a +6 to their surprise roll because they had no idea from what direction that attack would be coming, and their assumption was that it would be coming from the direction of the elevator doors.

Edit: If I had an SAS team statted up, just for the record, I would have to gauge their stats, ware, and skills relative to what would be appropriate. But I honestly can't imagine an SAS member not having anything less than exceptionally high stats and skills for purposes of speed, surprise, and fuck-you-upitude, no matter how they've been statted in the books. I imagine Agility 6-8, Intuition 5, Reaction 6-8, and decent ware, since these are the things most runner street sams start with.

Oops, I forgot to factor in Intuition on both sides.

In that case your numbers are right for Special Forces, and the two PCs in question would have about 14 and 20 dice respectively. So our cybered guy is unlikely to go first, but the physad still has a good chance at it thanks to combat sense, especially if his enhanced senses tip him off that there's someone inside the van so he gets another +3.

On the other hand, if you'd like a car and a gun, the one with the NRA sticker is the best target.

That's the reason I don't put NRA stickers on anything I own. Hell, my AR even has a Peace Corps logo on it!

Does it have "Born To Kill" on the other side?

Unfortunately, no. Del Ton only let you do laser etching on one side. That would be incredibly awesome, though. I will have to see if it is possible to get that laser etched on the other side.

Picture: http://i52.tinypic.com/scb804.jpg

Original thread, on another forum: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=102158

An organised car theft ring gets attention from law enforcement and the organised crime groups. Failing that, just up the rewards (and make things a tad more expensive).

Perhaps I'm lucky, but they often do something that leads Lone Star onto them. Say they want to steal a car as a get away, post job, and ditch their present ride. That's fine. Half the time they'll cause an accident en route. Either way, they've lost one car.

I wish I could find a copy on the net of the pic hanging up at the local Game Warden's office. A group of thieves tried to steal the truck and what they thought were guns in their cases from a deer camp out on someone's hunting land. The hunter's came back to camp in time stop the would be thieves and since the idiots put up a fight and the hunters didn't want them to struggle any more the group of three thieves were strung up like a deer about to be gutted. The hunter's took trophy pictures of their catch.

Of course you aren't forced to. You're the GM. However, it's still a GM house ruling. Otherwise the "waiting in ambush" modifier is just there to look pretty.

The waiting in Ambush modifier is for situations where the GM deems that the opposition has a chance to notice the ambush prior to encountering it. I do not deem this situation, as described, as one of those cases. Some situations just do not need rolls.

Let us not forget a very good deterrent to grand theft auto:

The application of explosives.

Sooner or later someone is gonna get pissed and seed the town with cars that explodes whenever someone tries to break into them.

A Mr. Johnson with too big a budget and a really big chip on his shoulder.

Or one that needs to make it look like Terrorists are in the city. (Hey, it's a good set of Shadowruns to set up during an election year!).

Isn't it a little silly that people here are discussing ways of making breaking into ultra-secure facilities a more attractive activity than stealing cars off the street? I'll admit I only skimmed the later posts, but it seems like some GMs think sending a miraculously invincible special forces squad after PCs who steal a car or ten an appropriate response.

It's not. They'd get some opposition from the police, of course, but no more than any other car thief gets, and definitely no more than they'd get for doing the sort of work a shadowrun usually entails. They might also get some opposition from the gangs and/or crime syndicates they're competing with. That's more worrying, because they'd shoot to kill and probably would be able to find the PCs more easily than the cops, but it's still well below the threat level people have been throwing around the thread.

You might as well just admit you're punishing your players for deviating from your script when you start making "out-of-plot" criminal activities harder than actual shadowrunning. There are much better ways to make sure your players are engaged with the game.

stealing cars should be easier.
Stealing cars in a way to make a profit, a living, and more money than you make shadowrunning should be difficult.

Bira:

The discussion comes from other posts, a Dumpshock meme if you want. A long time ago, in a thread far, far away, someone pointed that hacking cars was so easy, players could dump shadowrunning and steal cars for infinite money. The fact that official missions pay so little, and by fencing the cars you can have more money made it into a discussion where Game masters had to pay more than that or their players would just turn into other less risky and more profitable career choices, namely car stealing.

There has been too much ink spilled in the matter, my link was simply a joke into it, because, let's face it, the surprise element in it is hilarious.

Edit: Spelling

THEY CAN HAVE MY FORD AMERICAR WHEN THEY PRY IT FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!

And even then they won't have it!

(Links NSFW!)

Also:

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2011/0...ndomness-36.jpg

Then shadowrunning should pay more, shouldn't it? It seems like shadowrunners get paid basically peanuts for going into incredibly dangerous (even action-movie like) situations. If they decide to walk away and steal cars or make orichalcum instead, they're just being rational.

Or maybe, just maybe, the campaign should be about more than money .

I like the CO-4U one, along with the micro-wire spinning mace of death. Both leave the car intact with easy cleanup.