QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 11 2011, 01:13 PM) 
Cool. We cross-posted when you first quoted it, so I never saw it. 
Null Perspiration, Chummer...
Full Version: Questions that came up on a run
Null Perspiration, Chummer...
Ehrm. Isn't the bonus for targets that are astrally perceiving? Not Assensing? How does this debate matter? I can perceive astrally without Assensing as much as I can perceive normally without Perception.
QUOTE (Mardrax @ May 11 2011, 01:12 PM)
Ehrm. Isn't the bonus for targets that are astrally perceiving? Not Assensing? How does this debate matter? I can perceive astrally without Assensing as much as I can perceive normally without Perception.
Well... Lets go to the relevant Books...
QUOTE (SR4A, Astral Perception)
While astral perception allows an Awakened character to sense the astral plane, actually interpreting what is sensed takes practice. Interpreting auras to gain information about the person or thing to whom they belong is called Assensing. A magician who wishes to learn more about an aura must make an Assensing + Intuition test, with the number of hits determining how much the magician learns, as outlined on the Assensing Table (at right). Without attempting to read an aura, a magician can still get an impression of what type of aura it is (spell, spirit, living creature, etc).
QUOTE (Noticing Magic)
Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 135) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force. More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the caster. The gamemaster should apply additional modifers as appropriate, or if the perceiver is Awakened themselves (+2 dice), astrally perceiving (+2 dice), or if a shamanic mask is evident (+2 dice).
So, After actually looking up the relevant text in the books, in the end, there are a FEW areas where a Mundane can obtain the benefit of Astral Perception so as to gain the +2 bonus. It is a highly unlikely set of circumstances that are generally up to the GM for them to come into play. Most mundanes are not going to be using Shade, as it forces them to Astrally Project. Shallows and Riufts are so rare as to be a moot point. As for Tempo, I do not know enough about the drug yet (we are currently in the campaign, and I have yet to read the actual book, as I am a player) to comment one way or the other.
However, In the end, I still hold to may comments. See Highlights in the text above. Magicians are the only ones who can interpret an aura (for the most basic of information) without using Assensing to clarify. Mundanes just do not have the knowledge to do so.
Granted, they're rare occurences, but in no way impossible enough to warrant a blanket "always +4 when astrally perceiving" statement.
QUOTE (Mardrax @ May 11 2011, 02:26 PM)
Granted, they're rare occurences, but in no way impossible enough to warrant a blanket "always +4 when astrally perceiving" statement.
What? Magicians ALWAYS get a +4 to notice magic if they are astrally perceiving. Period. There is no question about that one.
Awakened? Check... +2 to Notice Magic
Astrally Perceiving? Check... +2 to Notice Magic
Looks like +4 to me.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 11 2011, 04:27 PM)
What? Magicians ALWAYS get a +4 to notice magic if they are astrally perceiving. Period. There is no question about that one.
Awakened? Check... +2 to Notice Magic
Astrally Perceiving? Check... +2 to Notice Magic
Looks like +4 to me.
Awakened? Check... +2 to Notice Magic
Astrally Perceiving? Check... +2 to Notice Magic
Looks like +4 to me.
Right, but that's not what you originally said. You said "If you are ever astrally perceiving, you would get +4." That's what Mardrax is referring to: your original incorrect statement, not your constantly shifting goalposts.
In those rare occurences you mentioned above though, the character is astrally perceiving. Granted without Assensing skill, but astrally perceiving still. Possibly without being awakened.
QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 11 2011, 02:31 PM)
Right, but that's not what you originally said. You said "If you are ever astrally perceiving, you would get +4." That's what Mardrax is referring to: your original incorrect statement, not your constantly shifting goalposts.
You should really read the original post there James... Here it is again...
QUOTE
QUOTE
I would think it is, though I can see a possible way they can say "Without attempting to read an aura, a magician can still get an impression of what type of aura it is (spell, spirit, living creature, etc.)" and also say that casting is not obvious to astral perception. Maybe the spells themselves, once fully formed, have enough aura to automatically identify them as spells, but while they're being cast they could be mistaken for random background count.
Definitely. If you're astrally perceiving and awakened you get +4. If you're just awakened you get +2, and if you're just astrally perceiving you get +2.
________________________________________________________________________________
Just as a Note: You cannot astrally perceive if you are not awakened. If you are ever astrally perceiving (EDIT: Lets clarify that this means you are obviously awakened, shall we), you would get +4, if not, you get +2.
So... as you can see above, I had eliminated the condition of Perception for the unawakened. Which leaves ONLY the Awakened as an argument. So, with that statement, the only remaining way you can astrally perceive is if You ARE awakened, which then combines both the awakened and perceiving into a single bonus, as you indicated yourself.
Where is the Issue here?
Additionally, if you see the text of the boks, ONLY MAGICIANS can interpret a basic aura without Assensing. no one else can do so because they do not have the experience...
This has not been about shifting the goal posts, as you keep saying, but an attempt at clarification that should not have been necessary.
Perhaps you should read your own post?
I'm not sure which thread you're in, but in the one I'm reading you said exactly what I quoted you as saying.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 11 2011, 09:29 AM)
Just as a Note: You cannot astrally perceive if you are not awakened. If you are ever astrally perceiving, you would get +4, if not, you get +2. 
I'm not sure which thread you're in, but in the one I'm reading you said exactly what I quoted you as saying.
QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 11 2011, 04:03 PM)
Perhaps you should read your own post?
I'm not sure which thread you're in, but in the one I'm reading you said exactly what I quoted you as saying.
I'm not sure which thread you're in, but in the one I'm reading you said exactly what I quoted you as saying.
Edited... I'm done with this part of the conversation. All it is doing is inflaming the discussion....
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 11 2011, 09:37 AM)
Wow... How wrong you are...
Shallows or Rifts are Special Circumstances that are rare and elusive. As for Shade, you are correct. But, in either circumstance, Mundanes cannot pick up/Use the Assensing Skill, which will preclude them from actually ASSENSING (SINCE YOU CANNOT DEFAULT), thus they cannot obtain the Bonus for Assensing as magic is cast... See, ONLY AWAKENED can Assense. It requires you to have a Magic Attribute of at least 1.
Shallows or Rifts are Special Circumstances that are rare and elusive. As for Shade, you are correct. But, in either circumstance, Mundanes cannot pick up/Use the Assensing Skill, which will preclude them from actually ASSENSING (SINCE YOU CANNOT DEFAULT), thus they cannot obtain the Bonus for Assensing as magic is cast... See, ONLY AWAKENED can Assense. It requires you to have a Magic Attribute of at least 1.
But he just said that you could perceive astrally, which is apparently not assensing in this case. After all, you can't default on assensing, but if you're perceiving the astral what is that but astral perception?
*edit: dang, just saw that last post. How come I'm always late to the argument if I don't start it myself?
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 11 2011, 10:14 PM)
But he just said that you could perceive astrally, which is apparently not assensing in this case. After all, you can't default on assensing, but if you're perceiving the astral what is that but astral perception?
*edit: dang, just saw that last post. How come I'm always late to the argument if I don't start it myself?
*edit: dang, just saw that last post. How come I'm always late to the argument if I don't start it myself?
No worries... It was a semantics argument, and it was getting a bit heated...
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