Wouldn't characters on this kind of stipend only have about 10 BP to spend on gear? 8k per session sounds ok as long as no significant portion goes into lifestyle. If I made a net profit of less than 5k per run, I would immediately resort to mugging rich people for all they're worth.
High pay is a nice way to keep your more powerful runners on a tether. Otherwise they may realize that they can make more through undirected violence (assuming you're using the enemies suggested by the book).

I know I wouldn't go onto even A level turf without at least 5 figures.

Our gm seems to be more oriented towards strong start with low growth. He's getting better about the karma though.
*I would like a 5 figure pay though.

4 figure pay is delivering a package across town, or standing guard at a low level mob meeting, the kinds of jobs where Johnson wants to be able to say he has runners doing it, but doesn't actually want to pay runners to do what they do.

You have to remember when hiring runners to do a corp run, your not just hiring them to steal something(or someone), you are hiring them to:

* Do legwork on Johnson before the meet(possibly having to grease palms to get info)
* Risk going out in public to meet Johnson
* Do legwork on the run(palm grease also needed)
* Gather any special(and illegal) equiptment they'll need, up to and including false SINs
* Actually do the job(while not causing an excessive ruckess that will bring heat down on Johnson)
* Get the target back to Johnson before corp security tries to get it back
* Risk going out in public to meet Johnson AGAIN
* Replace ammo, devices, and SINs that got fragged
* Lay low for a week(or more) while the heat dies down

You're not hiring a random ganger, you're hiring professionals.

One that has no other choice?

Let's face it, Shadowrunners don't do what they do for kicks.

...

OK, some do, but they're not really the reliable or stable ones, are they? ... Comparatively.

Realistically, it should be rare to get one of those archtypical corp run jobs. There can't be a lot of them most of the time (stealing that new biodrone means waiting 9-10 minimum while they invent the thing) and in most cities there are gonna be a lot of established teams with reps who will get first crack at the jobs. For most teams, that means there just aren't a lot of big job to do and a lot of people in front of them in line.

And it has nothing to do with skills, it has everything to do with rep. And no matter how nasty you maybe, until a couple missions in you don't have the rep to even be considered for an AA or higher run.

And yes, shadowrunners can go jack cars instead and honestly, when you start, you'll probably make more money. However, no one will hire carjackers for professional runs on corps, or even for any sensitive run. And if you're not running, or you're running crap jobs, then you're not building your rep or making the contacts that will one day get you those big jobs.

I touch on that with the history of Pup the Dog Shaman.

Well, you also have to ...

Hrm.

Have you ever read an article called "Why do must drug pushers live with their parents?" It goes into the economics for crime. Now, it's dealing with a street gang, but, it can be used as an extrapolation into the criminal world as a whole.

In the gang, you have a few levels ... there're the wannabes, the 'soldiers', the 'sergeants', the 'lieutenants', and the boss.

The boss makes a ton of cash. He makes around $120,000 a year, on par with the manager of a retail store, like a WalMart.

The lieutenants (There's 2-5 of 'em) make decent cash, around $40,000 a year, on par with a salary comperable to middle management. Tax free, mind you, but also with a very real risk of death or being arrested.

The sergeants get about $20,000 a year if they're lucky. They want to move up, but, can't unless someone above gets taken down. These guys usually have a job of some kind on the side to try and pay for bills.

The basic soldiers, what you think of as gangers, are lucky to make $10,000 a year, but usually make less. They can make better money flipping burgers, but, they're in it for the chance, however remote, of making their own gang and living teh high life. It's like being a baseball player in A-level play. You spend a lot of time on your hobby, but it doesn't really pay the bills.

Lastly, there are the wannabes, who pay money to the gang for the right to hang out with them and be on "the list", where they can join the gang if something happens. That's right, much like joining a karate school means you have to buy the uniform from them, so to does *trying* to join a gang set you back, often with a monthly fee.

It goes on from there, but, short form is that one responsibility of the top levels of a gang is to live it up, flashing cash and living large, to seduce more people to join the gang, thinking that they'll be living that life, not the sucky life where you live with mom and always owe people money, which is what most of them wind up in. It's like being a pro wrestler in a high school gym, or playing football in the Europe league, hoping to get into the NFL some day.

Shadowrunning is similar, a pyramid with wannabe runners at the bottom, a huge swath of rookies, and an ever-shrinking stack of better and better runners, until you get to the Prime RUnners at the very top. Everyone wants to be Fastjack, but most wind up, well ... not.

As for crime, I used to have a list for what kind of reward there was for most crimes. Fencing goods you stole, for example, would usually net 5% of the item's worth. A car worth $10,000 would net you about $500, for example, while a Playstation2 (About $200 at the time) would snag you $10-20. Hitmen would work for $2000 or less ($1000 is the 'common level, but some would go much lower), arsonists would usually run a couple hundred bucks, and so on.

Now, Shadowrunners are often doing more than this, but, the payoff is generally not all that much. Heck, counterfitters get paid 3% of what they produce! Crime is, by and large, a terribly low-paying field. The advantages are that you can do it when you're unhirable (For example, you have a long criminal record) and that you are your own boss. Joining a syndicate can have better rewards, but also comes with greater chance of violent death and, of course, a loss of freedom.

The criminals who can demand a million bucks are ... really, really rare.

It really does pay for crap, but there're a handful of high rollers who were giants (Capone, etc) that tend to influence people into thinking that the reward is much higher than it actually is. THOSE guys are basically CEOs of Crime Incorporated and, well, you can see how many CEOs there are versus how many register jockies and burger flippers. You don't go work at McDOnalds because you love the fries, you go there to make some money and, if you stick with it, get promoted. Sucks to be scrubbing the toilet, but you might make shift manager in a year and a half, maybe move higher teh year after that ... who knows? Five, six years down teh road, you could be running your own franchise! SO you suck it up and work hard today.

Crime? Same thing, different boss. Pay is for crap, but you're looking for the promotion.

Wait. Are you talking about 4 figures per runner, or altogether? A 4 figure total may sound a bit ridiculous, but I'm pretty sure I once saw a gm on here trying to restrict his players to 150 or 200 BP.

I mussed up the Karma the first time. I'm still not sure on the money thing, but since most of the jobs you guys have pulled have been higher end, well, mid-tier, I figure that 5,000 is a little low. Besides, the Johnson did crit glitch that one negotiation.

Don't worry about it. I like the way the games are going. Having to ration my resources a bit makes it fun.
*ah, watch out for that "pool our money" idea though. Atropos doesn't use any, and I doubt many people would object if I bought everything ever.

Did I miss something, the title of the book is "Shadowrun" not "Street Crimes in 'da Hood". Shadowrunners are those who fall into the shadows of the corporations, who the corps deny and revile yet have to rely on to do their dirty work lest they risk outright war with their competitors. There are people in the sixth world who jack cars, sell drugs, and take out small time crime bosses, but they are not shadowrunners, they're criminals. Shadowrunners are the guys with the skill, gear, and drive to take a job from someone who's name they don't even know to go to a corp facility where they will likely be shot on sight(or worse) if caught, just to get something, or destroy something, all as part of a larger scheme they will never understand.

Shadowrunners are what keeps the sixth world moving, their the only ones skilled and crazy enough to go against the doubles and the triples, and that kind of work pays well, largely because running the shadows is expensive.

While it is true most shadowrunners didn't grow up wanting the job, Shadowrunners are not down on their luck SINless who turned a life of crime to pay the bills, those people are your druggies, your gangbangers, and if their lucky soldiers in a organized crime outfits. Shadowrunners are the ex-special forces guy, the brilliant hacker, the talented mage, the silver tongued adept, who normally would life happy, profitable lives, but for some reason they cannot(or chose not to) use their significant skills, for legitimate pursuits. Being unable to be happy productive wage slaves, and too skilled to be a common street grunt, they take to the shadows, doing the most dangerous job in the world. Shadowrunners are few and far between, but they aren't common thugs who do smash and grabs for a few thousand bucks, they are skilled professionals who do the jobs no one else can, and they get paid well for doing it.

Of course, we all know that runners usually live in crappy apartments that only have power for 12 hours a day, this is because even though they get paid very well, their job is expensive. They got to buy guns, ammo, armor, and gear. They have to pay for information, to set up safehouses, get new fake SINs when the old ones stop working, and upgrade to that new commlink or piece of 'ware just so they life through their next mission.

There are plenty of fluff reasons why runners should be well paid, and mechanics reasons as well. A lot of people complain that awakened characters are overpowered, and that's not true, it's simple that awakened characters gain the vast majority of their strength from karma, and get little benefit from nuyen. Other characters have different ratios. Street Samurai need both to improve, hackers and riggers improve almost exclusively via nuyen. If you're paying the runners 5,000 nuyen a run, but giving them 6 karma, thats only 833 nuyen per karma. The awakened characters are getting more and more powerful each run, while most of the other characters money is being spent on lifestyles, bullets, and contacts, leaving them nothing left to buy no gear, 'ware, and programs.

Actually, I've recently ran in a game where the teams payment was a 4-door sedan with assorted guns and ammo in the trunk.

Hope nobody geeked Little Jacob.

This!

You can, of course, have a game about the kind of street criminal that lives with their mother, but that's not what "standard" Shadowrun is about. PC shadowrunners should get paid enough to not be desperate for money after paying for their lifestyle costs and replacement gear. They're action movie protagonists! While some of those do always seem to be down on their luck, it's not a default assumption.

There's also practical considerations. I've seen a lot of posts from indignant GMs complaining that their players prefer to go out and steal cars, make orichalcum, or do some other safe and profitable activity rather than take the offered runs. Why do these things look so good, financially, in comparison to "by the book" shadowrunning? People tend to think it's because they pay too much, but it's actually the other way around - shadowrunning pays too little.

Money isn't even that important! The best stories, even the best heist stories, aren't about money. And it's not like you should let them buy a warehouse's worth of military hardware just because they can afford it.

Great post, thank you.

Different teams will have individual payout schemes for different missions. Heavy Combat groups are good for shock value, but not secrecy.

A corp will have a certain budget for runs, and do those with the highest return first. Since your calculated expected average ROI for Team A should be 800% (800k-400k=400k), Team B will only be chosen based on higher total returns if there are too few targets available.

I've had games were we effectively had a warehouse full of military hardware. Unless the runs involved primarily direct combat it's pretty meaningless. It took us months to find a run that we could use the tbird in. ...

Just a queer ecology major... And it was the sheriff's ex-sheriff's fault for running him down. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

My group had a contact with a warehouse full of explosives (Low, medium, and high. Hey, everyone has a hobby!), and toasters. He ran it as a digital memory farm.

And then there was the bus...

Always overpay:

1) It's a game, people can be poor in real life, let them live it up in make believe land.

2) All those toys in the books you and they paid for don't do much good if they never get to have them.

3) You can always take toys away, and you should fairly regular. SIN's need burning, safehouses get burned, vehicles get blown up.

Yeah, a big advantage to overpaying is that you can take away toys without wrecking a character. Make it clear to the players beforehand that equipment comes and goes. You get captured, or sometimes you need to leave behind gear to escape, and that's just how it goes, but it can all be replaced. It's a setback, not a catastrophe.

Of course, if there's a particular piece of equipment the player is really fond of, you should be sensitive to that (implants, a really specially modded gun). If you take those away, think about a chance to steal/barter/whatever get it back again.

I agree with the wish-fulfillment point Lurker made. This is a game, we play it to get something Better Than Life out of it, grimy pennypinching isn't really that.

Payout should fire up the players' imagination: "think what we could do with that kind of money!" Isn't that way cooler than "wow, that means I can pay the rent"?



You know, I'm thinking. A character who's actually saving up for retirement, putting aside a significant part of each run's payout. At some point he'll be sitting on a lot of money. That's meant for retirement, but it can also come into play in an emergency: for example when his S.O. is captured by Aztechnology - time to finance an all-out war? Wouldn't that be interesting?

Tonight I paid my runners 100k up front for a job per person with 100k promised on completion. The catches are 1)the run is being financed by Lofwyr, 2)is not optional 3) and will be hard as hell. They will need to provide or acquire their own gear or material for said run. I'm curious if people feel this is inappropriate and why.

200k seems excessive unless they're likely to burn through all or most of (or more than) the up-front cash over the course of the run.

Sorry just got back from vacation. Now what I was saying is that in game the first three character are acting like human beings (in the game). The next two are just meta-gaming. The third should get Karma for "Rule of Cool".

The omnicidal maniac in my group would argue that buying guns bigger than his head is acting like a human being; it's what he'd do in real life.

I havn't actually crunched out the math for next session but at the very least their going to need access to a an aircraft and a pilot for same. That will set them back quite a bit up front as this isn't the sort of job they'll just be able to rent one for. Other then that we'll see how it goes, see above commentary about always overpay vice underpay.

The pay really does a lot to define the setting. Stingy pay (and/or high expenses) can set the dreary, dystopian setting. They have to eat dog food and live in a tiny flat that smells like diapers. Lots of pay results in PCs who, really, don't have stresses about cash any more. They're now high-rollers, even if they aren't actually any good at what they do (and they may quickly find themselves running more of a 007 campaign).

Both are valid game styles, and completely up to your players. Unfortunately, if most income is in cash, that means the dark, dreary setting is also limited in available gear. This is why I tend to give money and give gear, each separately, so you can have a million nuyen tank and live in your rat hole. Also giving gear I think tends to give a little more story to it, because you didn't just buy it out of a catalog, you found it (or it found you).

Shouldn't it be?


Well, a million dollar tank for which you have no place to hide it or even fuel to drive around.

Thats what I meant with the gear and the life style should match.
You can't be Robin Hood and Bruce Wayne in one person.
If you go for Robin Hood you will stick with second hand Ware and the mage will rejoice if he finds the cash to bind a force 5 spirit. (Or even increase the level of his lodge)

There is your Disconnect. In most stories I have seen with Robin Hood, he had a fair amount of wealth, he just did not spend it on himself. He gave it to those who had nothing. Thus the Term "Hooding."

Robin Hood plays in a universe where the quality of your equipment isn't anywhere near as important as skill. In SR equipment is a big part of a character's strength.

Wealth he couldn't use, because you can't buy stuff if the guys selling stuff would arrest you...
In any event he would still be poor compared to Bruce Wayne.

Wealth he couldn't use, because you can't buy stuff if the guys selling stuff would arrest you...
In any event he would still be poor compared to Bruce Wayne.

And yet, no one turned him in... Why, because he was more popular than the reward money that was being offerred. I would say that he did not NEED money to do what he wanted. Money means absolutely nothing if you have everything that you need or want in life.

As for the comment above by Ascalaphus, you are right, equipment plays a large part in Shadowrun. I fall somewhere in the middle. If you are going to have that warehouse with the big guns, planes and that tank, you really should not be living a street lifestyle. I prefer the big rewards, and I like blowing 100,000 nuyen on a party prior to hitting the Mitsuhama zero zone. You will never amass the credibility, reputation, and the equipment necessary, for your continued survival, to be hired for that Zero Zone Op, if you are constantly scraping by on that peanuts for pay scheme that I often see touted as the norm. As has been often said... if that is the case, I am going to go steel me some cars, and mug old ladies for their retirement checks. Why? Because it pays more and has less of a down side.

Again, it completely depends on the sort of game you want to play. But 'available equipment' and 'dreary setting' are only tangentally related when it comes to taste. I love to play games with combat helicopters, big explosions, cutting edge cyberware and city-shaking magic - but still have my characters live in the slums like they're extras in Blade Runner.

Upgrading equipment is also how you upgrade characters. No one wants to play a game with zero advancement. However, character advancement is about the character. Again, completely independent from the setting.

In my last campaign, I was stingy on the money, but the runners were corporate black ops that had a high lifestyle compensated by the corp. Money was really not a concern and I found it interesting that in the year and a half we played, no one really voiced a desire to upgrade their starting gear (including 'ware). I think the standard starting build doesn't really foster the need to get a bunch of new toys. My players were pretty much powerhouses from the start and only invested in minor tweaks to their characters.

I'd say, to start, figure on either 5-10K per run per player or lowball the hell out of them and see how they respond (this is basically talking to your players to find out what sort of game they are interested in playing). Some may not care how much they are being paid while others may be wanting to save up for something or have debts or high lifestyle to maintain.

Excepting the rigger, I've seen that a lot with SR3. A lot of that is because cash is flush at chargen, but skimpy during play, and the price for upgrades increases exponentially. It's rather disappointing, and I was happy to see SR4 flatten that curve out a little bit.

It has gotten a LOT better with 4th Edition, to be sure.

You mean 5-10k isn't lowballing a lot? Lifestyle, ammunition, supplies, consumables, and bribe money alone can cost 10k a month in some cases(easily over 5k), so you'll never get significantly better gear at that rate. Your hackers(and riggers especially) hit their skill glass ceiling awefully quick, and street samurai are not too far behind. Without high grade drones and 'ware to look forward to how are these characters going to continue to advance?

Yup. I've burned 15k of equipment in a run more than a few times. Ammo, explosives, bribes, props, IDs, drones, etc. Hell, I think I had drones fire that much in ammunition at least once.

I should have really clarified. 5-10k a run in a campaign with 3-4 runs per month is what I was saying. Obviously, if you are only doing one run a month, 5-10k is certainly lowballing.

My players have never taken more than one lifestyle and I don't think its ever been more than 5k a month. So, my normal stance is give them enough runs to cover their lifestyle (whether they accept them or not is their issue, not mine) a few times over, each month.

Lifestyle is usually only a small portion of the money runners pay. Regardless, you still need to consider the nuyen to karma ratio. Assuming 7.5k a run, and 6 karma a run, your only at 1.25k nuyen to karma, which is about half of what a point of karma is usually worth.

Good point. I've never tried to balance nuyen to karma in my games and don't do an exchange between the two after chargen.

Now, I do talk with my players before a campaign is started and chargen occurs, so expectations are set. Most of the games I run, are done bi-weekly and its normal for me to accelerate xp/karma awards in anythin we play. Its just the nature of gaming as a working adult with family obligations. The last two SR4 games I've run, I've given between 7-14 karma PER SESSION. Everyone felt that worked, so I didn't need to follow published guidelines. As for nuyen, I just check in with my players from time to time, and adjust, if needed.

I think I've had success for two reason: 1) I don't exchange karma for cash after chargen and 2) chargen is so complex that none of my players have challenged me on the inequalities between BPs and karma values. They know that after chargen, we play by a different set of rules and they are okay with that.

Another important question that doesn't get asked enough (In my mind, at least) is HOW 'Runners are paid, and how they clean the money so that they can spend it using their Fake or Legal SINs.

After all, if you're a stock boy at a Stuffer Shack due to worries of Technomancers hacking the AZT Beanpicker-Class Auto-Shelver Drones (Yes, I'm going to The Special Hell, I know), how do you explain that you're driving that tricked out BMW 400GT instead of taking the Bus or maybe a Dodge Scoot?

That thought is one of the reasons I made "The Accountant From Hell", BTW. His SINner job was a Forensic Accountant before...

Beenpicker Class Auto-Shelver Drones? Holy smokes, where can I get me a pair of those? That is just awesome

As for the answer... I accept Certified Cred, or Kind, your choice...
Forensic Accounting..... Nice skill to have in the Shadows...

Hey, before Drones fell out of vogue, I'm sure they did all kinds of jobs that now have to be done by lazy, stupid, low-paid metahumans now. On the bright side, that increases the employment rate and increases purchases, so not always a bad thing. The AZT Beanpicker, Kong Wal-Mart ShelfMaster, and Horizon Anthropomorphic Stocking Clerk (With Life-Like© friendly smiling Troll face!) were probably very popular, and can be easily found in second-hand drone shops everywhere. Handy if you're a Mercenary Crew that needs to ensure that their ammunition stocks are sorted exactly right! Or even if you just want your Smuggler-Modified T-Bird loaded as efficiently as possible.

Certified Cred is good, but still electronic and potentially traceable. Serial numbers on the Nuyen (Just like on RL Bills) would tell people where the money came from, which serial number of the credstick it's on came from, and so on. Electronic Money is a great way to trace things still. If you just take the 'stick from Mr. Johnson, you're trusting that he's already cleaned it for you sufficiently, which may or may not be done, either due to ineptitude ("Forget about worrying about professionals, it's the amateurs you have to fear!") or a line-up to screwing the team over ("The 'Run isn't over until the Johnson has screwed you.").

The advantage is that it only exists in electronic format, so you can just deposit it (Exactly like moving a computer file, because, essentially, that's what it is), and move it around. A lot. Even passing it around in odd amounts from 'Stick to 'Stick will muddy the trail a great deal.

A bunch of Old, Non-Sequential, Beat Up UCAS$1000 bills are bulky, but don't have the electronic trail that nuyen has.

And, again, it all comes down to investigators spotting changes in lifestyle that make no sense.

When is it appropriate to pay an advance to the runners? It would make sense if there would need to be a lot of preparation done before the run gaining specific equipment. However, if Runners are deniable assets, I wouldn't want to pay before a team finishes the job. My former teammates never let me, but there were many times I wanted to walk away from jobs before finishing them. (I thought that the payout wouldn't be worth finishing the job and that we should quit while we were ahead.)

Depends on the Shadowrun, depends on the Mr. Johnson, depends on the culture of the Shadows on the area you're in.

IIRC, Seattle is a Half-Up-Front Traditional area.

One thing the Johnson can give in lieu of money is Intel, which is worth more than Nuyen sometimes.

Deniable or not, 'Runners also work hard to ensure they get paid. There's a lot of suggestions for this in Vice, which I'll have to read again when/if I play "The Accountant From Hell".

EDIT: You're also dealing with people that shoot other people in the face for money for a living. Are you sure you want to stiff them?

There's the flip-side to that. The runners know they are deniable assets and will want proof of good faith. Putting up a large advance is a tangible demonstration that the Johnson is making a straight deal. The amount that a team can request up front will depend a great deal on their reputation. Teams with a reputation for cutting and running don't get any advance. Mr. Johnson won't even pay for their drinks. Pros with a rock solid rep for getting it done might expect half their fee up front before they'll take Mr. Johnson seriously.

We actually had a big discussion on this in my group as part of the recent mission, here's kind of the consensus which is more or less what i've always used.

As part of the negotiation process runners can ask for a portion of the money up front. J's can also offer a portion up front as a sign of good faith. Because of the professional nature of Shadowrunners runners who agree to a job, take money for said job, are then fail to perform it are consider pariahs. There can be exceptions to this is massive important details are obscured For example, you don't necissarily need to be told who owns the truck your being paid to destroy with all of it's contents, you do need to be told if that truck is hauling infants. So generally speaking I would always allow thsoe with social skills to devote a couple of successes to getting paid some up front.

If a J is a complete unknown in the shadows the fixer will usually as a condition of the work require some money to be paid in advance or the job paid in full in escrow with a trustworthy source for all sides (usually the fixer, but occasionally an organization.)

If the job has "stupid runner tricks" (no civilian casualties, no property damage, job must be accomplished within a half hour of the brief etc etc) there should almost always be an upfront payment to compensate for the hassle.

Now a lot of this highlights what i feel separates professional runners and mercs from amateurs. A runner once they have accepted a job and gotten paid for it feels obligated to complete the job or their rep will suffer. Conversely a runner that protects their clients anonymity and honors their wishes where reasonable reaps the rewards of sucha reputation.