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yesferatu
So here's a theory...
1. NPCs usually have 1 damage track, stun is the same as physical damage.
2. Direct spells work better on living targets, indirect spells work better on non-living targets.
3. Willpower is generally capped lower than Body.
4. Direct stun spells are only resisted with willpower and ignore armor...so why ever use Shatter, PowerBall, Manaball...

Thoughts?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (yesferatu @ May 16 2011, 09:12 AM) *
So here's a theory...
1. NPCs usually have 1 damage track, stun is the same as physical damage.
2. Direct spells work better on living targets, indirect spells work better on non-living targets.
3. Willpower is generally capped lower than Body.
4. Direct stun spells are only resisted with willpower and ignore armor...so why ever use Shatter, PowerBall, Manaball...

Thoughts?


Flavour? It gets really boring to have the same spell set, time after time after time...
Fortinbras
One of my mages makes fun of the other mage because he doesn't kill people.
Powerball because of peer pressure.
Jhaiisiin
I can use Shatter on doors, powerball on walkways, etc etc etc. Physical spells don't need living targets to be effective.
Summerstorm
Didn't we have that topic just now... like two days ago or something?

Also to 1: Does anyone ever really do that? All my NPC's have Stun/physical and overflow. Would be weird if they had not and is not a TINY bit more complex (you need a little bit more spyce on your notebook... big whoop)

Physical Spells are awesome if you want to SHOW people how you destroy their friends, good against people imune to stun damage. And shows people you don't fuck around. Also harder to heal and it is faster to kill with it. (Yeah, sometimes you just want someone GONE forever, or not) Pesky stunned foes always come back for revenge *g*.
yesferatu
Jhaiisiin - Wouldn't an acid stream be more effective?
Plus, there's the object resistance on direct spells.

Summerstorm- I usually use the single track when there are a number of NPCs. Naturally, if you're ignoring the singular damage track...it invalidates the theory.

I was just noticing that there are dozens of character types with Body stats in the double digits, but almost no one will ever have more than 7 Willpower.
Yerameyahu
Isn't stun always better, even with dual damage tracks? So it doesn't matter.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (yesferatu @ May 16 2011, 11:00 AM) *
Jhaiisiin - Wouldn't an acid stream be more effective?
Plus, there's the object resistance on direct spells.

Summerstorm- I usually use the single track when there are a number of NPCs. Naturally, if you're ignoring the singular damage track...it invalidates the theory.

I was just noticing that there are dozens of character types with Body stats in the double digits, but almost no one will ever have more than 7 Willpower.


A Willpower of 3 provides double digit Stun Tracks... smile.gif
Yerameyahu
Who said it doesn't, Tymeaus? smile.gif I see 'double digit Body' and '7 Willpower'.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 16 2011, 11:14 AM) *
Who said it doesn't, Tymeaus? smile.gif I see 'double digit Body' and '7 Willpower'.


Ooops... I originally read that as Physical Tracks in the Double Digits. My Bad... wobble.gif
Apparently we went from Damage Tracks to Raw Attributes...
Been a long day already.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ May 16 2011, 12:46 PM) *
Also to 1: Does anyone ever really do that? All my NPC's have Stun/physical and overflow. Would be weird if they had not and is not a TINY bit more complex (you need a little bit more spyce on your notebook... big whoop)


I've gone one step farther. All my grunts have a single 8-box health track regardless of their Body or Willpower. The only way it'll be more than 8 is if they have the quality that grants health boxes.

You're right that it's not that much more complex to have an extra row of empty squares, but having a single row saves time in the fight. I can ignore the interaction of pain tolerance and wounds in both track. I never have to care if their armor was higher or lower than the base damage. And best of all, mooks are mooks while prime foes actually feel different.
Jhaiisiin
QUOTE (yesferatu @ May 16 2011, 11:00 AM) *
Jhaiisiin - Wouldn't an acid stream be more effective?
Plus, there's the object resistance on direct spells.

OR is 2 or 3 for the items in my example, at most. Acid takes time to eat through things. Powerball destroys it *now*.

Also, as mentioned, not everyone chooses to only give a single damage track to NPCs. I know my GM tracks both separately, and they're both tabulated exactly as a PC would. Without it, I could never opt to knock an opponent out instead of killing them.
Yerameyahu
I'm just still curious why it matters whether it's a single or full condition track. Stun is always better, right? (Even with Trauma Dampers or Pain Editors, the drain difference and Will/Body difference make up for it, IIRC.)
Summerstorm
Nah. totally not.

Say your team breaks into something. Knocks out the whole security team or something and throws them into some room. NOW some mage saw you do it or missed them or something and sent out a request for help.

A response team comes in while your runners break the locks or something. Goes up to the room, uses first aid and combat drugs on the security dudes: BAM fully functional in like 5 minutes.

Also you have people "PLAYING" unconcious sometimes (you needn't waste time to go and look if he exploded into gore *G*), Or just the: Kill him now and he will never be a problem in the future. (Re-occuring enemies and such).
James McMurray
Stun is (almost) always better for casting spells. But its probably not just mages on the team, so if you've got a guy with APDS and another guy with Stun Bolt, there's quite a difference between having one or two condition tracks.
yesferatu
I guess the difference is, if you're only using one track, you'll use whichever is higher. For the purpose of the damage track, they may as well not even have a Willpower stat.
So...a cyber-monkey troll might have 20 body - and would use all 20 to resist a physical spell (and half of that plus 8 for health) - but he would still have less than 7 willpower to resist direct mana spells.

Summerstorm - What's to stop you from killing them individually at your leisure after they've all been knocked out? (Other than being a sociopath)
I'm not sure I see the difference between immolating a guard and putting them to sleep first.
Summerstorm
QUOTE (yesferatu @ May 16 2011, 09:26 PM) *
Summerstorm - What's to stop you from killing them individually at your leisure after they've all been knocked out? (Other than being a sociopath)
I'm not sure I see the difference between immolating a guard and putting them to sleep first.


Mostly Time and ressources. But depending on who, where and how other difficulties arise. (Like knocking someone out, who is standing levels above you. He goes down, but you can't see him anymore. Is he dead, wounded, just KO, hiding? You don't know. If you used physical he is at least wounded and less of a problem.)

Or just for "Revenge" reasons:
"He must have seen them, and they shot him" -"Those Bastards"
"He must have seen them, but he was killed WHILE he was KO'ed... they shot the man while already neutralized" - "OK, when we find them and i say: shoot their legs... what i really mean is: SHOOT THEM IN THEIR FACES"
Yerameyahu
I guess I assumed you'd be using SnS (always, always better) and you'd just kill them afterward.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 16 2011, 02:01 PM) *
I guess I assumed you'd be using SnS (always, always better) and you'd just kill them afterward.


But Why would you do that? What made you use non-lethal rounds in the first place, especially when Letha l rounds are so much less expensive? I would be willing to bet that that reason would keep you from killing them after they were incapacitated, except in rare circumstances.
Yerameyahu
Because they're more effective, duh. smile.gif I said it right in the post: "always better". Same reason you're using stun spells.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 16 2011, 02:12 PM) *
Because they're more effective, duh. smile.gif I said it right in the post: "always better". Same reason you're using stun spells.


Poor Excuse... you are using a metagame explanation for an in game effect. wobble.gif And I do not use Stun Spells but rarely. My Current magician does not even HAVE any Combat Spells.
Yerameyahu
People in the game know that SnS is more effective. It's scientifically provable. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 16 2011, 02:26 PM) *
People in the game know that SnS is more effective. It's scientifically provable. smile.gif


So a -2 "shock penalty" is more effective than Dead? Interesting...
Whatever... smile.gif

So why are Tazers not the only weapons used in real life? If they are so effective, why do we even still use real bullets?
Yerameyahu
That's moronic and you know it. A bunch of stun damage with an amazing -2 penalty *is* more effective than *wounded* (and, due to armor, less wounded). And yes, knocked out is the same as dead.

… because they don't have the range and power of SnS. Facrissake, don't be a troll, it's unlike you. Are you still sleep-deprived?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 16 2011, 02:39 PM) *
That's moronic and you know it. A bunch of stun damage with an amazing -2 penalty *is* more effective than *wounded* (and, due to armor, less wounded). And yes, knocked out is the same as dead.


No it is not, and you know it. You are comparing apples to oranges. In some circumstances, it is better to use a Tazer over a real bullet. Those circumstances are few and far between. wobble.gif
Mäx
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 16 2011, 11:37 PM) *
So why are Tazers not the only weapons used in real life? If they are so effective, why do we even still use real bullets?

Because unlike S&S Tazers have a very limited range.
Actually Definace Ex Shocker is pretty much the best weapon in shadowrun,atleast as long as you never have to go against opponent who are more then 20m away wink.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Mäx @ May 16 2011, 02:42 PM) *
Because unlike S&S Tazers have a very limited range.
Actually Definace Ex Shocker is pretty much the best weapon in shadowrun,atleast as long as you never have to go against opponent who are more then 20m away wink.gif


Or who can IGNORE the damage completely. For one reason or another. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
I can't imagine what you're talking about. In 99% of cases, SnS will result in more total wound penalties than normal ammo (rarely, super-ammo like APDS is nearly as good, or better). This is without mentioning the chance of total incapacitation, of course.

And out of the fight is out of the fight.

There are a couple of ways this isn't the case. Tons of shockproofing plus stimpacks on automatic *might* tip the scale, and Pain Editors mean it takes more shots (depending on the armor stackup, this probably means lethal wins). Neither of those are typical, though indeed possible. Vehicles, *obviously*. I refuse to repeat this debate again. It's a known fact. smile.gif
DireRadiant
Chill out, Yerameyahu and Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
I bow to the wisdom of the Administrators. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
And to my overwhelming body of evidence. biggrin.gif

A couple points earlier: one, if you absolutely can't finish people off, and we're assuming you let them see your face/whatever, I can see how killing people the first chance could be better. I consider that a small, but reasonable, possibility. In most cases, there'd be so many cameras around that it doesn't matter what the living witness see or don't see, though.

Two, if the mage is shoot stunbolt and the team is shooting lethal bullets (assuming they're beating armor)… isn't it still good to have the stunbolts? Wound penalties stack, right? Obviously it's better to have someone fully dead or fully KO'd, but P wounds plus S wounds together seems effective enough. Not better, but factoring in lower Drain, it seems solid.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 16 2011, 02:58 PM) *
And to my overwhelming body of evidence. biggrin.gif

A couple points earlier: one, if you absolutely can't finish people off, and we're assuming you let them see your face/whatever, I can see how killing people the first chance could be better. I consider that a small, but reasonable, possibility. In most cases, there'd be so many cameras around that it doesn't matter what the living witness see or don't see, though.

Two, if the mage is shoot stunbolt and the team is shooting lethal bullets (assuming they're beating armor)… isn't it still good to have the stunbolts? Wound penalties stack, right? Obviously it's better to have someone fully dead or fully KO'd, but P wounds plus S wounds together seems effective enough. Not better, but factoring in lower Drain, it seems solid.



Agreed... the Reasoning for the Mage to use Stunbolt is solid, if all you care about is the drain. My point is that if you are using Non-Lethal weapons to start with, it is highly unlikely that you would all of a sudden decide to kill your opposition once they were down. That takes time. If you were intent upon killing your opposition in the end, you would have just used lethal weapons to start with. smile.gif

I do truly enjoy the discourse, though. Not sure about your overwhelming body of evidence, however, as I have never actually seen you before... biggrin.gif
James McMurray
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 16 2011, 03:58 PM) *
Two, if the mage is shoot stunbolt and the team is shooting lethal bullets (assuming they're beating armor)… isn't it still good to have the stunbolts? Wound penalties stack, right? Obviously it's better to have someone fully dead or fully KO'd, but P wounds plus S wounds together seems effective enough. Not better, but factoring in lower Drain, it seems solid.


It's still good to have stun bolts, because not every target should be killed. But it's a bad idea to mix the two damage types. Using a P spell instead of an S one against a guy with an assault rifle risks you taking one more point of drain. Using a stun bolt and leaving the enemy conscious risks someone on the team taking a long burst and a short burst. Wound penalties stack, but not everyone cares about wound penalties, and even one hit on a longshot test can let a long burst cause some pain. I'd rather just take the enemy out in the first place.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 16 2011, 03:41 PM) *
No it is not, and you know it. You are comparing apples to oranges. In some circumstances, it is better to use a Tazer over a real bullet. Those circumstances are few and far between. wobble.gif


The problem is that in Shadowrun we're not talking about contemporary tasers. We're talking about crazy future bullets and future tasers made out of handwavium that do a good job of zapping people through their body armor in a setting in which normal everyday people are waltzing around in outfits that compare rather favorably to modern light vests while big meta runners can armor up like the North Hollywood Shootout boys without even taking encumbrance penalties. That makes it really hard for me to believe that few people in the shadowrun universe got the stick and shock memo considering that a lot of conventional also fails to kill people without first chewing through their stun track.
Irion
@Summerstorm
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ May 16 2011, 07:23 PM) *
Nah. totally not.

Say your team breaks into something. Knocks out the whole security team or something and throws them into some room. NOW some mage saw you do it or missed them or something and sent out a request for help.

A response team comes in while your runners break the locks or something. Goes up to the room, uses first aid and combat drugs on the security dudes: BAM fully functional in like 5 minutes.

Also you have people "PLAYING" unconcious sometimes (you needn't waste time to go and look if he exploded into gore *G*), Or just the: Kill him now and he will never be a problem in the future. (Re-occuring enemies and such).

Yeah so when you kill them the HTRT goes straight at you and shoot you in the head.

If you dump them in a roum the HTRT is divirting resources to get to the guards and you have a chance to get away.

If they get you after all it does not matter if you are outnumbered 10 or 12 to one.
It does not matter what is in 5 minutes after the first HTRT arrived. In 5 minutes you are gone for 4 minutes. Either out there alive or the other gone.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE
So why are Tazers not the only weapons used in real life? If they are so effective, why do we even still use real bullets?

The same reason nobody is using sniper rifles in close quaters or is even thinking about using a minigun in a building.
Because real life has no abstraction to keep the rules simple.

@Mäx
QUOTE
Actually Definace Ex Shocker is pretty much the best weapon in shadowrun,atleast as long as you never have to go against opponent who are more then 20m away

Well, I would go with the pulsar, since the Ex Shocker has just one attack. Thats kind of a draw back.
The Defi ance Protector is also something to think about, since the gecko grip makes it easy to hide.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ May 16 2011, 05:22 PM) *
The problem is that in Shadowrun we're not talking about contemporary tasers. We're talking about crazy future bullets and future tasers made out of handwavium that do a good job of zapping people through their body armor in a setting in which normal everyday people are waltzing around in outfits that compare rather favorably to modern light vests while big meta runners can armor up like the North Hollywood Shootout boys without even taking encumbrance penalties. That makes it really hard for me to believe that few people in the shadowrun universe got the stick and shock memo considering that a lot of conventional also fails to kill people without first chewing through their stun track.


Maybe. But In my opinion, Individuals that totally resist the Damage from the SnS/Tazer should not have to resist the secondary effects. Kind of hard to rationalize any secondary effects if there are no primary effects. In this instance, such weapons become relatively useless against well armored/protected targets. I know that it is not how it works by RAW (Secondary effects are always resolved, IIRC), but it is how it SHOULD work.

Besides, If you are going up against such targets, there are weapons to handle that. And any good HTR Team will have those weapons, and people who know how to use them. And no, they are not Electrical weapons for the most part. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
*shrug*. Massive house-rule changes massively change the situation. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 16 2011, 08:50 PM) *
*shrug*. Massive house-rule changes massively change the situation. smile.gif


Indeed they do. Not saying we use the proposed idea, but it does make a lot of sense. *shrug* wobble.gif
Whipstitch
Regardless, acknowledging that Stick and Shock seriously ruins the weekend of live targets is hardly metagaming. Having a good notion of the pros and cons of various ammo types hits me as something plenty of 'runners would understand, particularly gun bunnies. That's why the last samurai I played had a custom Praetor with an Additional Clip system that let him swap between APDS and SnS with a Free Action. The former is mostly there for stubborn drones that I don't want to see again.
Mäx
QUOTE (Irion @ May 17 2011, 04:46 AM) *
@Mäx
Well, I would go with the pulsar, since the Ex Shocker has just one attack. Thats kind of a draw back.

God gave you 2 hands, might as well use them to easily get around the problem of SS firemode wink.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ May 16 2011, 08:22 PM) *
Regardless, acknowledging that Stick and Shock seriously ruins the weekend of live targets is hardly metagaming. Having a good notion of the pros and cons of various ammo types hits me as something plenty of 'runners would understand, particularly gun bunnies. That's why the last samurai I played had a custom Praetor with an Additional Clip system that let him swap between APDS and SnS with a Free Action. The former is mostly there for stubborn drones that I don't want to see again.


The problem is that it does not "Seriously ruin the weekend of live targets". Typically, it allows them to live so that they can return fire, often with a gun that ruins the day of the runners. Keeping a clip on hand is good business (After all, it is great against Spirits), to be sure, but none of the characters I play ever use it as a primary ammunition type. The choice is never objective, but subjective.

Unfortunately, as with anything related to weapons and ammunition types. Opinion is King. The combination I use I consider to be the best combination. The same goes for someone else. It is a lose-lose proposition when trying to change the opionion of someone elese about their favorite combination. In game or out of it. I cannot tell you how many hours-long discussions I have been in, in real life, regarding who had the best combination of gun and ammo load. Never really solves anything, since it is so subjective, and relies upon so many circumstances.

In my opinion, all the ammunition types in Shadowrun have their place. For me, SnS is the round of choice against Spirits. I do not think that any of them is truly the single, magic bullet of choice for all situations, however. wobble.gif
Irion
@Max
QUOTE (Mäx @ May 17 2011, 04:46 AM) *
God gave you 2 hands, might as well use them to easily get around the problem of SS firemode wink.gif

So you have to reload two weapons after two shots. (It is not much better)

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Well, it depends on. If you are could just sneak in a pistol or a small automatics SnS is just the freaking good.
If you got yourself a snipe rifle...

I personally like the AV rounds.
Since I learned that the drone rules allow an Otomo to carry 18 points of hardend armor...(An an additional 10 Smart armor).
Mäx
QUOTE (Irion @ May 17 2011, 05:39 PM) *
@Max

So you have to reload two weapons after two shots. (It is not much better)

8 actually, the defiance has a 4 shot internal magazine.
Irion
Right, I guess I missread the description.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 17 2011, 06:56 AM) *
Typically, it allows them to live so that they can return fire,



You can say the same about most rounds short of performing full bursts. In the race to see who incapacitates who first, Stick and Shock is a top flight choice for everything from SMGs on down. As for your IRL ammo convos, I don't really care. Shadowrun isn't real life. Shadowrun is a game with a bunch of math that is attempting to model a goofy future fantasy. Thus, things can be pretty objective since nobody has to worry about the finer points of hydrostatic shock vs energy transfer and fast rounds vs heavy rounds. There's enough situations in shadowrun that favor dealing Physical that I do not believe that SnS is infallible-- it cannot disable drones for more than a couple turns, after all-- but I do believe that it's enough better than other ammo types that it's literally 1 of only 2 types of ammo my characters carry, and I certainly do not believe it is really metagaming to do so given that it's a game world in which many people are armored up to the point where light pistols just end up giving people nasty bruises.
Mäx
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ May 17 2011, 09:15 PM) *
You can say the same about most rounds short of performing full bursts.

Well as you get 2 shot per IP, most targets are down one way or an other, thinks that do stun damage have an edge in this case as their quranteed to do same damage type on both shots.
This is actually the reason why I'm mostly of the opinion that S&S isn't really unbalanced, as you need 2 shots anyway, it doesn't really matter whether you just did 10 damage to their 10 box monitor or did 16 damage to that same 10 box monitor, he's down either way.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ May 17 2011, 01:15 PM) *
You can say the same about most rounds short of performing full bursts. In the race to see who incapacitates who first, Stick and Shock is a top flight choice for everything from SMGs on down.


I'd say SnS is the ammo of choice for LMGs and lower. 6S(e)/-half is better than 7P/-2 if they've got 10 armor, and if they don't have 10 armor than a burst from either of those is going to crush them. Tack on the chance to knock them out and the guaranteed -2 penalty, not to mention the lower availability and lower cost, there's very little reason to ever not use Sns. You'll want a clip or 3 of AV ammo for vehicles, but the double clip mod works great for that.
Whipstitch
Yeah, I love the additional clip system so much.
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