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Yerameyahu
Also, you have way too many programs, especially if you're not going to actually use them. smile.gif Recon drones are hella cheap; drop some of the tertiary programs and get some micro and mini drones.

In summary: it's not a rigger without drones, not a hacker without using programs, and not a face without CHA, Skills, and DP-adders.

And bump your physicals to 2, it's not that hard. wink.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Irion @ May 29 2011, 09:26 AM) *
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein#
Beeing locked up in the matrix while your body is dependend on artificial nutrition can do that to you. (Actually will do that to you)

(If you need to do it through the blood stream because the digestive organs started failing, it gets even worse)


And yet, this is not required or even common for most, if not all Hackers or Technomancers. Technomancers really only need this when on a Resonance Quest. So, I do not really see the necessity of such a thing. Most people are going to be average in stats (Technomancer or not). That is just the way it is.
Irion
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
It is a common story for how people became Technomancer. If you play after the crash 2.0.

I am not saying every technomancer has to I am just saying it is a plausible explaination for every Technomancer.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 29 2011, 06:43 AM) *
Which is why it does not work very well. wobble.gif It is hard to combine archtypes into an effective whole, especially if you have never created/played the ones you are trying to combine. Hacker/Rigger is rather easy to accomplish, as they use many of the same skills and stats. Throwing Face into the Mix makes it a little harder (No Cross skills/Attributes), but can be done. Just not usually as your first attempt at it. smile.gif And as a note... Combining them into a single whole will usually result in a character that is not as good as a Dedicated version of what you are combining.

However, Good Luck on the attempt. smile.gif

Why does it not work? Is it all the things I listed as "droppoed because I couldn't afford it", or is it something else? I haven't really used the 5 IP yet, so I might get rid of the simsense booster in exchange for more equipment. In particular, some programs that I can crack (our group decided to use 'you can patch your degrading programs with your legal corporate ones').
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 29 2011, 08:36 AM) *
Also, you have way too many programs, especially if you're not going to actually use them. smile.gif Recon drones are hella cheap; drop some of the tertiary programs and get some micro and mini drones.

Actually, I decided to drop some programs yesterday. I'd been on the fence about data bomb and defuse for a while; disarm can go; I can drop attack in favor of nuke. This is starting to clear up now that I've had some time to reflect. Any other suggestions, or programs I was wrong to drop?
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 29 2011, 08:36 AM) *
In summary: it's not a rigger without drones, not a hacker without using programs, and not a face without CHA, Skills, and DP-adders.

Ah, I see. Drones are cheap. I'll be getting some right after I get some warez programs. I'm making a hefty pilot program to give a guy in hopes he'll become my link into a warez group contact.
The face will be fine. I'm just about to buy empathy software, which both ggodo and I understand doesn't apply to everything, but defeinitely does enough. Mostly I've been playing face with a dice pool of about 12 though (edge).
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 29 2011, 08:36 AM) *
And bump your physicals to 2, it's not that hard. wink.gif

Ech. I can see the tremendous bonus to many resistance tests, but I just can't do it. I'll wait till later in the game, once I have enough resources. For now I'll rely on medicine and symbiotes.
LurkerOutThere
Hey longbow, i sympathize with getting stuck on support guys duties. I still think like many others your concept is flawed, thematicly I can't see many teams wanting to relay on a hacker that can't come into the meat at all. At least with an AI you can carry them in on a comlink even though it's risky as all hell.

My honest advice though if you want to keep the face in the equation, switch gears and go a charisma based technomancer stream, technomancers make great drone riggers too because of their access to machine sprites, hell on the whole their one of the best rounded streams when it coems to sprite access. You'll be hurting for BP's but your going to be doing that regardless and the ability to thread will help boost your shortcomigns to start with. My advice is concentrate on face and hacker first with a smattering of coding and registering and leave the rigging to the sprites at least to start.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ May 29 2011, 12:41 PM) *
Hey longbow, i sympathize with getting stuck on support guys duties. I still think like many others your concept is flawed, thematicly I can't see many teams wanting to relay on a hacker that can't come into the meat at all. At least with an AI you can carry them in on a comlink even though it's risky as all hell.

My honest advice though if you want to keep the face in the equation, switch gears and go a charisma based technomancer stream, technomancers make great drone riggers too because of their access to machine sprites, hell on the whole their one of the best rounded streams when it coems to sprite access. You'll be hurting for BP's but your going to be doing that regardless and the ability to thread will help boost your shortcomigns to start with. My advice is concentrate on face and hacker first with a smattering of coding and registering and leave the rigging to the sprites at least to start.

I think it was decided in a thread our GM started up that sprites coudn't rig without the AI quality. I don't want to try overturning that decision without a good reason. The technomancer sounds like a better idea than what I have, but I've already spent so much time creating this character that I'm just going to stick with this for now. It doesn't look like I'm in any danger of dying yet (we had our first run yesterday).

*Oh god, I just acknowledged that an emerged character would be a good idea. Next thing you know I'll be playing awakened characters. I definitely need to fix up this character so I have enough leeway to destroy a mage or two after this next session. biggrin.gif
Yerameyahu
They can Command… which is exactly what your 'rigger' PC was gonna do.
longbowrocks
But do any of them have gunnery skill? I guess I could build my own. Then again, he did say to only do that for a while, and I only plan to command for a while until I can comfortably defend myself.
redwulf25
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 29 2011, 03:54 PM) *
But do any of them have gunnery skill? I guess I could build my own. Then again, he did say to only do that for a while, and I only plan to command for a while until I can comfortably defend myself.


If the sprite is using command it doesn't need the gunnery skill, the drone will be using it's auto-softs.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (redwulf25 @ May 29 2011, 02:08 PM) *
If the sprite is using command it doesn't need the gunnery skill, the drone will be using it's auto-softs.

Eh~ Kinda fudging the rules there. And assuming that the drone can use its autosofts to aim when your sprite is using a virtual joystick to aim, and not expecting any interference. Maybe if you run the autosoft on the sprite as a CF, but then it's still a bit weird.
Fortinbras
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 29 2011, 02:59 AM) *
Proxy through a drone at the edge of the cage. I already take most of my matrix actions through a proxy, and use hot sim to counter the -1 penalty. That's another I forgot to get in my last minute rush to finish my character. A sim rig.

Once that drone enters the cage, it loses it's connection to you. If the drone is outside of the cage, it can't hack anything inside and on runs you often don't have time to dismantle such a structure.

I'm not trying to rag on you, but I'm saying that I, as a GM, would have a field day with a character not on site with the rest of the team.
When my team does runs, there is usually an offline Matrix node that the hacker has to be onsite to access. I use faraday cages, Wi-Fi inhibitors, signal jammers and even a Jamming spell on a sustained focus once.
On top of that I would have your drones in a constant Signal Warfare battle with every Tom, Dick and Technomancer who popped up. You could be faced with loosing control of the cyborg you, which takes you out of the game, just because someone jams it's signal or rolls really well on a Command roll.
On top of that, everything you do is being broadcast through the air at an incredible signal rating. All KE, or anyone on half the planet, has to do is get a decent Decrypt program and all your exploits are on the record.
On top of that, everything you do is traceable back to where your meat body is, where there is, presumably, little in the way of defense compared to the rest of the party. Even with a proxy server, you are still totally traceable. Don't believe me? Make a post entitled "You can't trace a hacker through a proxy server" and see what response that elicits.

There is just too much stuff that a GM can do to really bollocks this guy over and I'd hate to see that happen to a character you like.
Yerameyahu
Esp. when it's built in such bad faith. wink.gif
ggodo
Oop, posted the wrong thing in this thread. I would like to remind you that there may be some travel involved in the future, so you had best have a way to deal with that.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 03:13 PM) *
Once that drone enters the cage, it loses it's connection to you. If the drone is outside of the cage, it can't hack anything inside and on runs you often don't have time to dismantle such a structure.

It's the cage walls that prevent the signal, not the mechanical disconnect. smile.gif If there is a door, I position my repeater drone in the doorway. If there isn't a door, we can't get in. Definitely not stealthy, and definitely not secure, but people don't exactly put faraday cages in every building in Seattle, and I need to give up something to be practically immune to ritual spells.
QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 03:13 PM) *
On top of that, everything you do is being broadcast through the air at an incredible signal rating. All KE, or anyone on half the planet, has to do is get a decent Decrypt program and all your exploits are on the record.

I didn't realize until today that all my drone actions had to be direct link in mutual signal range. At least it sounds that way in the FAQ, although I'm getting different readings from the core book. They also need to get a decent Decrypt program, and have decent skill. Later it will be R10, but that's low on my to do list.
QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 03:13 PM) *
On top of that I would have your drones in a constant Signal Warfare battle with every Tom, Dick and Technomancer who popped up. You could be faced with loosing control of the cyborg you, which takes you out of the game, just because someone jams it's signal or rolls really well on a Command roll.

Meh, I don't run the defense program on my drones, so I'll replace it with ECCM.
I might also use directional antennas.
In the end, don't worry. I'll be jumping in soon. Or once it starts getting tough. Either way. I only have one drone active at a time anyway. The others are in the car or something, and if someone jumps into the car, they jump into the car. Not much more I can do about that by being with the group when they aren't with the car.
If I really want to stick with command, I might make a super-secure drone, install faraday cages on my others, and upload new scripts through wired links if we run into complications. Or I could have them all slaved to my secure drone by wire constantly.
QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 03:13 PM) *
On top of that, everything you do is traceable back to where your meat body is, where there is, presumably, little in the way of defense compared to the rest of the party. Even with a proxy server, you are still totally traceable. Don't believe me? Make a post entitled "You can't trace a hacker through a proxy server" and see what response that elicits.

I wasn't aware this game had evolved to a point where +4 to a threshold was insignificant. frown.gif

I actually thought I was mostly making actions through the matrix, with a high signal as backup if I ran into trouble. I'll rethink this as I keep working on this guy.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (ggodo @ May 29 2011, 04:51 PM) *
Oop, posted the wrong thing in this thread. I would like to remind you that there may be some travel involved in the future, so you had best have a way to deal with that.

Workin' on it. I have enough bonuses that I can probably spread my skills more.
LurkerOutThere
Why would sprites not be able to rig drones? I am aware of the line of logic that AI's need the drone origin quality to rig but sprites are not AI's and vice versa.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ May 29 2011, 05:22 PM) *
Why would sprites not be able to rig drones? I am aware of the line of logic that AI's need the drone origin quality to rig but sprites are not AI's and vice versa.

I didn't do any research on it, but here's the topic if you want:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=34931
*the topic where it came up last.
Yerameyahu
Why would they? Do they have control rigs? smile.gif
LurkerOutThere
I read that thread, my point stands, sprites are not agents or AI, just because an AI can't rig a drone doesn't mean a sprite could not. In fact it would be counter intuitive if they couldn't as machine sprites wouldn't need the ability to get autsofots as complex forms. Also this is fourth edition a control rig is no longer required to rig things.

Edit: Damn, shouldn't type tired.
Yerameyahu
I was just teasing. smile.gif The question is, what makes you think they *can* rig? Agents can't, plain AI can't, etc.
Fortinbras
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 29 2011, 07:18 PM) *
I need to give up something to be practically immune to ritual spells.

You are far more vulnerable to Trace programs, which give your physical location. A Watcher spirit working as a spotter then makes you just as vulnerable to Ritual magic. If you are truly worried about ritual magic samples, I might recommend the Genewipe genetic augmentation.

QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 29 2011, 07:18 PM) *
I didn't realize until today that all my drone actions had to be direct link in mutual signal range. At least it sounds that way in the FAQ, although I'm getting different readings from the core book. They also need to get a decent Decrypt program, and have decent skill. Later it will be R10, but that's low on my to do list.

Yes, you need mutual signal range for most drone actions. Specifically, inhabiting that drone. Your computer and it's computer need to be able to talk to each other. You can route that communication through the Matrix, but then you would be using the signal rating of the connecting device for the purposes of jamming.

In terms of a Decrypt, even a decent one isn't necessary. You are broadcasting your signal constantly, so only a few rolls are needed to match the hits you got. As a GM, I'd have not only KE, but any number of folks just keeping an ear out for broadcast signals throughout the metroplex. You could make enemies you don't even know about.
Moreover, if you are hired to steal a piece of paydata from company A and give it to Company B, then when you hack it out of the mainframe with the team, it gets sent through the air and back to you. what if some CB enthusiast gets a hold of it and sells it to Company B before you do?
As does all the commlink communication between your team get sent all over the planet.

QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 29 2011, 07:18 PM) *
Meh, I don't run the defense program on my drones, so I'll replace it with ECCM.
I might also use directional antennas.
In the end, don't worry. I'll be jumping in soon. Or once it starts getting tough. Either way. I only have one drone active at a time anyway. The others are in the car or something, and if someone jumps into the car, they jump into the car. Not much more I can do about that by being with the group when they aren't with the car.
If I really want to stick with command, I might make a super-secure drone, install faraday cages on my others, and upload new scripts through wired links if we run into complications. Or I could have them all slaved to my secure drone by wire constantly.

Again, as a GM, a directional antenna would tell me exactly where you are. Like pointing a shiny arrow to your location.
Being with the team makes Electronic Warfare easier as you are within mutual signal range easier. If you only have one drone and you're jumped into it, all a competing rigger needs to do is use a strong jamming signal and you get dumped while they get control of the robot you. Now your team has a Trojan Horse.
It's what I'd do, anyway.
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 29 2011, 07:18 PM) *
I wasn't aware this game had evolved to a point where +4 to a threshold was insignificant. frown.gif

I actually thought I was mostly making actions through the matrix, with a high signal as backup if I ran into trouble. I'll rethink this as I keep working on this guy.

Your average Hacker is rolling 12 dice. A +4 means one extra roll. If all of your actions are through the Matrix, all the time, that's nothing.

I'm just giving you a heads up when the GM has a cadre of KE officers bust down the door of your meat body's home.
You are giving yourself unnecessary complications. The idea of the remote hacker or rigger is not new, but they rarely last because there is just too much going on. When you are with the team, the mage and sammies can keep you safe from the flying bullets. When you are on your own you're... well on your own.

Pity the runner all by his lonesome.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 07:27 PM) *
You are far more vulnerable to Trace programs, which give your physical location. A Watcher spirit working as a spotter then makes you just as vulnerable to Ritual magic. If you are truly worried about ritual magic samples, I might recommend the Genewipe genetic augmentation.

I'm not so worried about genetic samples, since those don't sound so stupid to me. They're definitely more likely, but I just can't tolerate the thought of dying because of a symbolic link. I mean, really. The mage found a picture of me? The mage heard a good enough description of me from a guy who saw me to draw a picture of me? God, I'll keep a dagger on hand to stab myself in the chest before some that idiotic ends my character.

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 07:27 PM) *
Yes, you need mutual signal range for most drone actions. Specifically, inhabiting that drone. Your computer and it's computer need to be able to talk to each other. You can route that communication through the Matrix, but then you would be using the signal rating of the connecting device for the purposes of jamming.

It's always good to check everything, so could you quote where it says that you cannot use the matrix and must use mutual signal range for rigging?

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 07:27 PM) *
In terms of a Decrypt, even a decent one isn't necessary. You are broadcasting your signal constantly, so only a few rolls are needed to match the hits you got. As a GM, I'd have not only KE, but any number of folks just keeping an ear out for broadcast signals throughout the metroplex. You could make enemies you don't even know about.
Moreover, if you are hired to steal a piece of paydata from company A and give it to Company B, then when you hack it out of the mainframe with the team, it gets sent through the air and back to you. what if some CB enthusiast gets a hold of it and sells it to Company B before you do?
As does all the commlink communication between your team get sent all over the planet.

There's the directional antenna (assuming we're talking wireless), so they'd need to be in a specific zone, which would probably cover most of the complex we were infiltrating, so that's not to difficult (well, they would have to be within the constantly moving band between my signal and the party's signal being sent, so maybe a bit tougher). Outside of combat though (which is when we generally receive the information we were sent to collect) I can just spend every action encrypting and re-encrypting my signal. It's not like I have anything else to do with my simple actions. I could also let them into a bait commlink with a databomb with black IC attached to an "important file". Possibilities in the matrix are endless.

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 07:27 PM) *
Again, as a GM, a directional antenna would tell me exactly where you are. Like pointing a shiny arrow to your location.
Being with the team makes Electronic Warfare easier as you are within mutual signal range easier. If you only have one drone and you're jumped into it, all a competing rigger needs to do is use a strong jamming signal and you get dumped while they get control of the robot you. Now your team has a Trojan Horse.
It's what I'd do, anyway.

The GM always knows. He sets up the world. On the other hand, I can just cover my directional antenna with a paper hat to hide the direction it's facing. I doubt security will want to waste time running in a large circle around our party sniffing for signals while we're accomplishing the mission. As for jamming, I'll just get ECCM rating 6 until I can upgrade my drone even more and raise the rating. Not like the signal can be overcome either way when it's effectively 11+ against jamming.

What to do if that is overridden though... Ah, equip my drone with a commlink. I'll put a rating 1 agent or something on the commlink with a subscription to my drone's node. If the subscription is interrupted, the agent should switch the drone's wireless to 'off' and let it run on the scripts that I've loaded up pre-mission, or its own pilot. If that's not enough, then the commlink is a microdrone, which hits a manual "wireless off" switch.

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 07:27 PM) *
Your average Hacker is rolling 12 dice. A +4 means one extra roll. If all of your actions are through the Matrix, all the time, that's nothing.

one extra roll means at least one roll. Hopefully I get some chance to recognize he's tracking me, or at least he needs to roll against my stealth first. In that case I'll just use nuke, and let him roll 2 dice all day since he'll probably be too obstinate to reboot.
QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 07:27 PM) *
I'm just giving you a heads up when the GM has a cadre of KE officers bust down the door of your meat body's home.
You are giving yourself unnecessary complications. The idea of the remote hacker or rigger is not new, but they rarely last because there is just too much going on. When you are with the team, the mage and sammies can keep you safe from the flying bullets. When you are on your own you're... well on your own.

But the mages! Maybe I should have taken paranoia instead of prejudice.
I didn't think of this until just now, but what's going to make anyone think there's a remote hacker, or a rigger in the drone? Why wouldn't they assume one of our party is the hacker? You've already mentioned that the remote hacker idea has been done, and beaten every time, so I imagine it's not common in the shadowrunning world.

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 07:27 PM) *
Pity the runner all by his lonesome.

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly I thought: "Damn I'm lonely, but at least I'm safe from mages". silly.gif

I couldn't think of anything else to say to this, but I wanted to reply to all your comments. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
You realize that your obsession with ritual magic is unhealthy, right? smile.gif Your characters should indeed take a negative quality to reflect it, hehe.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 29 2011, 09:10 PM) *
You realize that your obsession with ritual magic is unhealthy, right? smile.gif Your characters should indeed take a negative quality to reflect it, hehe.

That's something I can take some advice on. Any suggestions? I've already reached the negative quality cap, but I can always take more to reflect character as long as I don't get BP for it.
Fortinbras
But you aren't safe from mages. You are traceable. Easily traceable. Either you are constantly broadcasting an incredibly strong signal which can be traced back to your location either through Sniffer(area) or a straight line(directional antenna), and looking for strange signals is the first thing any rigger/spyder does once something is afoul. The Technomancer in my game is pretty much always doing that. Your ECCM will help, but once they get through that 3(or 6) it will degrade the drone's signal down so that you are no longer within mutual signal range.

Or you are going through the Matrix, in which case a pretty simple Three Musketeer IC or Spyder with a half a decent Trace program is going to get your location in about a combat turn. And you can't just turn on a dime and change your Access ID like a normal hacker because your drone is slaved to one particular Access ID.
This runs further afoul when you consider that a lot of places Shadowrunners break into aren't connected to the Matrix. Further, no one will have to jam your drone's signal, just the signal of whichever device you are piggy backing off of.

In either case, you run the risk of everything you do being noticeable by someone who has Decrypted your signal, which is much easier than you think when you consider you won't be Encrypting every other round, you will be commanding or, while jumped in, moving. And you can't databomb important files because that file is being broadcast at the same time you are receiving it.
It doesn't matter how secure you think it is, you will never know how secure it actually is. That info is just flying through the air and you can only hope no one Decrypted it. You have no idea whether they did or not until it's too late.
You also put your teammates in the situation that everything they said to you was being picked up by someone.
Not someone I'd want to work with.

Most importantly, mages already have something that is a symbolic link to you... your drone!

I'm telling you, broadcasting from a remote location is far more dangerous than being on site, where the team's mage can Counterspell.
You are banking on the fact that no NPCs in the game will ever jam you, trace you, decrypt you, spoof your drone or run a detect wireless signal. If any of those things happen, you are out of the game.
You are doing this because you are afraid your GM is going to have some random mage with a rare metamagic cast an incredibly potent Ritual Spell on you, which can be avoided by everything from Arcane Arrester to buying a Nimue Salamander?

Honestly, which do you think is more likely?
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 10:02 PM) *
Your ECCM will help, but once they get through that 3(or 6) it will degrade the drone's signal down so that you are no longer within mutual signal range.

I used to think that too, but once you got me to searching, all I can find are implied binary relationships between jamming and signal: either full signal or zero. Can you point me to the page where the rules for signal degradation are outlined?

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 10:02 PM) *
Or you are going through the Matrix, in which case a pretty simple Three Musketeer IC or Spyder with a half a decent Trace program is going to get your location in about a combat turn. And you can't just turn on a dime and change your Access ID like a normal hacker because your drone is slaved to one particular Access ID.
This runs further afoul when you consider that a lot of places Shadowrunners break into aren't connected to the Matrix. Further, no one will have to jam your drone's signal, just the signal of whichever device you are piggy backing off of.

That was the original idea. Have like 10 effective signal on my commlink, but stay wired until someone jams my connection. In that case I immediately switch on my commlink and do what i have to in the shortest time possible. No one is going to get to my house, or take any physical or magical action against me in 3-6 seconds. If combat takes over 10 IPs, I've got to wonder what I'm fighting.
As for tracing, they have -5 (soon to be -6) to their dice pool from my stealth program, and hopefully +4 to threshold from proxying, unless I'm rigging with the 10 signal monster.

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 10:02 PM) *
In either case, you run the risk of everything you do being noticeable by someone who has Decrypted your signal, which is much easier than you think when you consider you won't be Encrypting every other round, you will be commanding or, while jumped in, moving. And you can't databomb important files because that file is being broadcast at the same time you are receiving it.

I definitely can't encrypt every other round in combat, but out of combat I could probably just say "I'm re-encrypting my signal every few seconds" and roll a test. The result would be used for each subsequent attempt so I don't need to interrupt play for something the sammies will consider irrelevant. As for the "important file" I put it in quotes for a reason. That was just a bait file to kill the guy trying to steal my secrets. It wasn't in transit, I just left it on a node in our party that may naturally attract a hacker.

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 10:02 PM) *
It doesn't matter how secure you think it is, you will never know how secure it actually is. That info is just flying through the air and you can only hope no one Decrypted it. You have no idea whether they did or not until it's too late.
You also put your teammates in the situation that everything they said to you was being picked up by someone.
Not someone I'd want to work with.

Yeah, I know that you can't detect... No, apparently I misremembered. Matrix perception is allowed to detect traffic sniffing.

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 10:02 PM) *
Most importantly, mages already have something that is a symbolic link to you... your drone!

Damn them. Now I have to go back and remove any and all of my mechanic or modding skills. I'm never going to touch my drones again. grinbig.gif
That would work since magic doesn't work with technology, and something I've never physically touched or even seen couldn't possibly be a symbolic link. Then again, I really don't want to do that... That's a problem for tomorrow. I still need to figure out what to prioritize after I buy some unregistered programs, and figure out what else I can shove into this character for cheap.

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 10:02 PM) *
I'm telling you, broadcasting from a remote location is far more dangerous than being on site, where the team's mage can Counterspell.
You are banking on the fact that no NPCs in the game will ever jam you, trace you, decrypt you, spoof your drone or run a detect wireless signal. If any of those things happen, you are out of the game.
You are doing this because you are afraid your GM is going to have some random mage with a rare metamagic cast an incredibly potent Ritual Spell on you, which can be avoided by everything from Arcane Arrester to buying a Nimue Salamander?

Honestly, which do you think is more likely?

TBH, I don't think ggodo is ever going to send a mage after me with initiations under his belt. Especially not with the metamagics required for symbolic foci. Even if he did, he wouldn't do a complex ritual (I think). He's much more likely to test my strengths and weaknesses equally. I'm still not going to give it a chance to happen though. Think of it as roleplaying, since I'm aware this choice is sub-optimal, that's actually all it could be.

*edit: he has sent mages with initiations, but he didn't ever expect us to fight them. Technically, we didn't, but the stronger the mage, the more my blood boils. I just had to try to kill Lofwyr.
In my defense, I waited until everyone was wrapping up their dice at the end of our last campaign, asked for confirmation that we weren't going to use these characters again, and rolled with what remained of my edge from that session.
Manunancy
If your commlink can handle it, you can also have an agent running which has one task only : encrypt/decrypt you communications. That should take care of the problem without straining your own initiative passes. That sort of repetitive background tasks are precisely what gaents were developed for.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Manunancy @ May 29 2011, 10:51 PM) *
If your commlink can handle it, you can also have an agent running which has one task only : encrypt/decrypt you communications. That should take care of the problem without straining your own initiative passes. That sort of repetitive background tasks are precisely what gaents were developed for.

Genius.
*costs a bit though.
Yerameyahu
Rating 1, of course. Honestly, the commlink should do that on its own, just like it does Analyze on its own.
ggodo
For the record, any ritual links are likely to be used as plot macguffin, if that eases your pain a bit. Ritual murder is no fun. Much better to have that blaze of glory shining off your pink mohawk when you go.
PoliteMan
Bah, you're already building your Nexus, right? And your bot net? You need to get a replicating agent pretty quick, otherwise you can't botnet.

Okay, one way to go with the physical stats in cyberlimbs. The two things you probably want to look into is increasing the agility on your cyberarm (+armor, obviously) so you can use pistols well and a cybertorso. Yes, the cybertorso is less than optimal but you want to customize it and boost it's body. Most GMs will let you use the cybertorso's body in place of your own for damage tests (#1, most shots are torso/body shots #2 it's the only way the torso makes any sense.) Those two won't make you great but they'll give you enough armor and shooting ability that physical activities won't be impossible. Plus, tons of capacity is always good.

If you're really worried about traces, look through Runner's Companion, there's a couple thing you can get there that make you harder to track (and it's free anyway). Also, remember that you can use multiple proxies. Finally, consider hacking random things, like vending machines, and manually setting them up as proxy servers. That means the opposition can't just track you, they have to hack that proxy and retrieve the information themselves. If you can set up a couple of linked proxy servers you've built yourself, you're basically untraceable. If you want to be untracable, really untracable, manually set up one of these proxy nodes somewhere far away using an Admin account, then move the log to your commlink. Now there is basically nothing to track.

Right now, play to your strengths. You're a brutal hacker, use that, and can pull rigging duty most of the time. If not, set up a fall back where if the drones lose contact with you, they automatically establish a connection with Teammate A.
Fortinbras
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 30 2011, 12:41 AM) *
That was the original idea. Have like 10 effective signal on my commlink, but stay wired until someone jams my connection. In that case I immediately switch on my commlink and do what i have to in the shortest time possible. No one is going to get to my house, or take any physical or magical action against me in 3-6 seconds. If combat takes over 10 IPs, I've got to wonder what I'm fighting.
As for tracing, they have -5 (soon to be -6) to their dice pool from my stealth program, and hopefully +4 to threshold from proxying, unless I'm rigging with the 10 signal monster.

If you are operating the robo-drone via Matrix by default, then you have a number of worries, namely what the opposing rigger/spyder is doing to your robo-drone after you were dumped out of it. He may not bust down your door in 10 IPs, but he could very well take control of that drone. If you don't think that's possible, ask yourself "How would I do it?" That's how he did it.
When tracing, it's an extended test. You are going to be using the same Access ID the whole time(the one your drone is slaved to) so as long as you are on the Matrix, you are vulnerable to being traced. That means the whole time the team is trying to get out of the building you broke into, you are traceable. Moreover, you could have no idea who is tracing you. Sure, you saw the IC that deployed when you triggered an alarm, but while fighting that IC you may not have seen that Spyder who is running his trace program on you. You can run Matrix Perception every round, but that's no guarantee. Even if you find him, that's no gaurentee either because, unlike a regular hacker, you can't just log off. So in order for people to not know where you live, the point of being remote in the first place, you have to hope you spot a tracer, hope you can beat him in Cybercombat, hope he doesn't reach your Trace threshold before you do and hope the party isn't moving while you do.

QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 30 2011, 12:41 AM) *
I definitely can't encrypt every other round in combat, but out of combat I could probably just say "I'm re-encrypting my signal every few seconds" and roll a test. The result would be used for each subsequent attempt so I don't need to interrupt play for something the sammies will consider irrelevant. As for the "important file" I put it in quotes for a reason. That was just a bait file to kill the guy trying to steal my secrets. It wasn't in transit, I just left it on a node in our party that may naturally attract a hacker.

If using your high signal broadcast, you are also running into a myriad of problems, namely that while you are re-encrypting every few seconds, someone Decrypting is doing it all the time. It's all they are doing. And you don't know who they are or why they are doing it. Imagine old ladies with police scanner or CB enthusiasts. Some people just take information out of the air. He doesn't have to hack your node or even be aware of it because you are sending everything in your node across half the planet.
Most importantly, you don't know if someone is doing this. You have no idea whether or not someone is getting your signals out of the air because they aren't in any node, save their own. You can make Matrix Perception tests on nodes you are in, but for all you know, this cat isn't even connected to the Matrix.
Same goes for someone running a Sniffer program on your Signal. You can detect them if they are in your node, but not if he's just looking for broadcast signals from his own.
Either through Trace or through Sniff, your meat body is getting found. One Watcher spirit as a spotter and that mage won't need a link to cast his Ritual Magic on you.

This is how NPCs are born. Some schmuck got a hold of some awesome paydata while trying to snoop on the neighbors and now he's selling it to the highest bidder. Mr. Johnson ain't pleased.
This is what GMs do. We look for cool stories. In trying to make an invincible hacker, you have made one far more vulnerable than you realize.

You aren't the first person to think of the remote hacker idea. You aren't the hundred thousandth. These are problems that have been faced and shall be faced again. What you are doing is splitting up the party. That is never, ever a good idea.
QUOTE (Manunancy @ May 30 2011, 12:51 AM) *
If your commlink can handle it, you can also have an agent running which has one task only : encrypt/decrypt you communications. That should take care of the problem without straining your own initiative passes. That sort of repetitive background tasks are precisely what gaents were developed for.

Anything you have, the bad guys have 3. While an Agent constantly running Encrypt is another common tactic, it is safe to assume that the bad guys have agents doing the same.
suoq
I thought signal range had to be mutual (PG 222 SR4A).

I also though prejudiced was against a type of people, not a single individual (PG 108 RC). Using Prejudiced in the way you describe certainly makes it a lot more appealing than enemy. I need to add "Predudiced, Outspoken, ex-Wife" to my next character. Easiest 10 BP ever.

Ghost_in_the_System
So, just something I came up with real quick to try and fill the role of hacker/rigger/face. Tried to keep in line with the original concept while adding a bit of extra omph into the social and physical aspects.

[ Spoiler ]


The Pheromones won't work when working through a robot, but you have chatty for that. They are there to make physical social a possibility.

No Gunnery skill, just use the command program whenever you need to take a shot.

Synth is there to balance out low stats. Gymnastics gives you some ranged defense if need be, just don't get caught in melee.

If you need a few extra BP for contacts or whatever, consider dropping the specializations and picking them up for karma in game.

Won't be huge in any area, but generally 10ish dice for most stuff. 15ish for social, either through a bot or in meat.

-Taikei no Yuurei

P.S. Woo, my first post, finally noticed the part about e-mailing the admin after waiting forever nyahnyah.gif

P.P.S. Mutual signal range is obtained when two devices are within signal range either directly, or by bouncing through other available devices (ie. the matrix) They don't need to actually be within signal range of one another.

P.P.P.S. Jamming is an all or nothing ordeal, so if you have a maxed signal and ECCM no jammer from the book can hinder you. Weird, I know, but that's how it works.

P.P.P.P.S. For encrypt/decrypt, you don't need to spend an action every turn or anything. You just need a simple action to start encrypting a signal, and another to decrypt the signal you are recieving. After that it will continue to remain in that state without further interference. Just like an encrypted file remains encrypted without further actions.
Fortinbras
QUOTE (Ghost_in_the_System @ May 30 2011, 08:48 AM) *
P.P.P.S. Jamming is an all or nothing ordeal, so if you have a maxed signal and ECCM no jammer from the book can hinder you. Weird, I know, but that's how it works.

P.P.P.P.S. For encrypt/decrypt, you don't need to spend an action every turn or anything. You just need a simple action to start encrypting a signal, and another to decrypt the signal you are recieving. After that it will continue to remain in that state without further interference. Just like an encrypted file remains encrypted without further actions.

I'm referring to Jamming on the Fly. It's harder to get more net successes than folk with ECCM, but not impossible.
The reason you want to Encrypt as much as you can is for those within your signal range who are running a Decrypt program. Once they reach your Encryption threshold, they have access to everything you broadcast.
So if you spend a simple action to Encrypt, get say 4 hits, all I need to do to listen in on your Matrix traffic is get 4 hits on an extended test to listen in on what you broadcast, which in the case of a remote hacker is everything he does and everything the team says to him.

Shadowrun tries to avoid some of the massive complications that come from the field of cryptanalysis, and ops for the idea that in the future things are just easier to decrypt. If you actually know a lot about cryptanalysis, don't over think it. You will hurt your brain.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Irion @ May 29 2011, 10:45 AM) *
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
It is a common story for how people became Technomancer. If you play after the crash 2.0.

I am not saying every technomancer has to I am just saying it is a plausible explaination for every Technomancer.


So, you are saying that the chronically physically unfit become technomancers? I did not get that from the Fluff at all... You must be reading different fluff than I am. wobble.gif
Ghost_in_the_System
Yeah, but keep in mind that unless the jammer is standing right on top of you, they're going to be suffering some penalties to signal (-1/5m) which is going to make it even harder. It is possible, but highly unlikely.

And yes, it does avoid complications because it is a game, not a world simulator. That said, I don't know how I'd deal with the R1 agent idea. Personally it sounds silly because that is basically what the encrypt program should be doing anyway, changing the key dynamically, and the agent isn't going to be any better at it than the program itself. And as someone else said, anything you have, the enemies have three of, so all it is going to do is change you encrypting and then the enemy decrypting to your agent constantly encrypting and your enemy's agent constantly decrypting. Basically leaves you right where you started and adds needless complication and expense.
Yerameyahu
You need Command *and* Gunnery. Check SR4A p247.

It still helps to have Encryption on automatic, because you *do* have to Encrypt each new communications link; if you make new links, that's new actions.
Ghost_in_the_System
Hmm, guess that is new, I still don't have a 4A book, so I'll trust that it is there. You could consider getting an optimized pilot for your drone along with an autosoft and relying on it being able to hit on its own because, lets be honest, when firing with a burst weapon, you really don't need that many dice to hit stuff.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (PoliteMan @ May 29 2011, 11:40 PM) *
Bah, you're already building your Nexus, right? And your bot net? You need to get a replicating agent pretty quick, otherwise you can't botnet.

Okay, one way to go with the physical stats in cyberlimbs. The two things you probably want to look into is increasing the agility on your cyberarm (+armor, obviously) so you can use pistols well and a cybertorso. Yes, the cybertorso is less than optimal but you want to customize it and boost it's body. Most GMs will let you use the cybertorso's body in place of your own for damage tests (#1, most shots are torso/body shots #2 it's the only way the torso makes any sense.) Those two won't make you great but they'll give you enough armor and shooting ability that physical activities won't be impossible. Plus, tons of capacity is always good.

I think I'll just keep some clockwork drones on me at all times. That's a much better idea for personal combat when I have no big drones around. As for BOD, I'm building up a bit of natural body, since I don't want to use essence on cyberlimbs (I'll need every bit I can get for all the second-hand ware in my future).
QUOTE (PoliteMan @ May 29 2011, 11:40 PM) *
If you're really worried about traces, look through Runner's Companion, there's a couple thing you can get there that make you harder to track (and it's free anyway). Also, remember that you can use multiple proxies. Finally, consider hacking random things, like vending machines, and manually setting them up as proxy servers. That means the opposition can't just track you, they have to hack that proxy and retrieve the information themselves. If you can set up a couple of linked proxy servers you've built yourself, you're basically untraceable. If you want to be untracable, really untracable, manually set up one of these proxy nodes somewhere far away using an Admin account, then move the log to your commlink. Now there is basically nothing to track.

I'll look through RC again with that specifically on my agenda. As for proxies, I want to minimize my penalty to matrix actions if at all possible. Each proxy s a -1 to matrix actions. Are you talking about moving a real log, or the game's abstraction of a log? I think Shadowrun's version also takes the place of an arp table or dns, so the device knows where to send data.
QUOTE (PoliteMan @ May 29 2011, 11:40 PM) *
Right now, play to your strengths. You're a brutal hacker, use that, and can pull rigging duty most of the time. If not, set up a fall back where if the drones lose contact with you, they automatically establish a connection with Teammate A.

I thought of that, but I imagine the enemy hacker is going to shut me out and rig it in the same pass, so basically I'm going to need a physical means of shutting him out. I wonder if I can somehow turn my drone into a UV node so the hacker takes 8P when he drops out.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 11:46 PM) *
If you are operating the robo-drone via Matrix by default, then you have a number of worries, namely what the opposing rigger/spyder is doing to your robo-drone after you were dumped out of it. He may not bust down your door in 10 IPs, but he could very well take control of that drone. If you don't think that's possible, ask yourself "How would I do it?" That's how he did it.

Well, that would apply to any situation. I'm not denying it's easier to maintain after its done if I'm remote, but I can always defend against most cases to make it pretty hard to take me down in the first place. We've been arguing these specific cases for a while now. smile.gif

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 11:46 PM) *
When tracing, it's an extended test. You are going to be using the same Access ID the whole time(the one your drone is slaved to) so as long as you are on the Matrix, you are vulnerable to being traced. That means the whole time the team is trying to get out of the building you broke into, you are traceable. Moreover, you could have no idea who is tracing you. Sure, you saw the IC that deployed when you triggered an alarm, but while fighting that IC you may not have seen that Spyder who is running his trace program on you. You can run Matrix Perception every round, but that's no guarantee. Even if you find him, that's no guarantee either because, unlike a regular hacker, you can't just log off. So in order for people to not know where you live, the point of being remote in the first place, you have to hope you spot a tracer, hope you can beat him in Cybercombat, hope he doesn't reach your Trace threshold before you do and hope the party isn't moving while you do.

We'll see how it plays out in game.

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 11:46 PM) *
If using you're high signal broadcast, you are also running into a myriad of problems, namely that while you are re-encrypting every few seconds, someone Decrypting is doing it all the time. It's all they are doing. And you don't know who they are or why they are doing it. Imagine old ladies with police scanner or CB enthusiasts. Some people just take information out of the air. He doesn't have to hack your node or even be aware of it because you are sending everything in your node across half the planet.
Most importantly, you don't know if someone is doing this. You have no idea whether or not someone is getting your signals out of the air because they aren't in any node, save their own. You can make Matrix Perception tests on nodes you are in, but for all you know, this cat isn't even connected to the Matrix.
Same goes for someone running a Sniffer program on your Signal. You can detect them if they are in your node, but not if he's just looking for broadcast signals from his own.
Either through Trace or through Sniff, your meat body is getting found. One Watcher spirit as a spotter and that mage won't need a link to cast his Ritual Magic on you.

I imagine the threshold is higher than your average mook's dicepool (avg 3-4 hits + 4 threshold = 7-8 threshold). I also move around in meatspace, which is why I have Disguise, and a less expensive/noticable lifestyle for my character.

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 11:46 PM) *
This is how NPCs are born. Some schmuck got a hold of some awesome paydata while trying to snoop on the neighbors and now he's selling it to the highest bidder. Mr. Johnson ain't pleased.
This is what GMs do. We look for cool stories. In trying to make an invincible hacker, you have made one far more vulnerable than you realize.

Not trying to make an invincible hacker. Just one that won't leave photos or images of himself lying around. One that nobody has ever seen the face of, so GM fiat can't say "the mage found someone who knows your face".

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 11:46 PM) *
You aren't the first person to think of the remote hacker idea. You aren't the hundred thousandth. These are problems that have been faced and shall be faced again. What you are doing is splitting up the party. That is never, ever a good idea.

Indeed, but I won't stop until someone gets past the directed plastic explosives in my hallway, and my slaved steampunk dragons. Maybe I can even find some biodrones and feed them shade, or put biofiber in my walls. Either way, someone can find me much more easily if they don't need to find me, because I'm with the party, which gets into combat and runs under cameras.
QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 29 2011, 11:46 PM) *
Anything you have, the bad guys have 3. While an Agent constantly running Encrypt is another common tactic, it is safe to assume that the bad guys have agents doing the same.

You mean they would be running Decrypt? Can agents take teamwork tests on decrypt? Anyway, yes. And I imagine those agents would be on a node inside the compound, so they would get our signals anyway.
ggodo
Also, Know that there is little tech in the barrens, but that there is lots of tech for most other bad guys.
longbowrocks
I'll do what I can to be ready. I have some armor now just in case, but I'm going to push that range for all its worth.
redwulf25
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 30 2011, 10:09 AM) *
So, you are saying that the chronically physically unfit become technomancers? I did not get that from the Fluff at all... You must be reading different fluff than I am. wobble.gif


No . . . they're saying a lot of technomancers (at least a lot of technomancers created by players) were online during crash 2.0 and became physically unfit after some time in a coma getting their only nourishment through an IV drip. Others were subjected to horrific experiments that may have impacted their health lowering some or all of their physical stats.
Bodak
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ May 29 2011, 02:09 PM) *
Has this reminded anyone else of pattyhulez, if only briefly and slightly? Or am I just going crazy?
Mostly he reminds me of the Emu Samurai. I haven't seen him for a while... maybe this is his new login?
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 29 2011, 05:57 PM) *
I already gave up on empathy software. I'm waiting till I get some money in the campaign to get that.
For such a minmax character and the low low price of an emotitoy and the (supposed) role of this character as a (robotic) Face I am surprised you don't have an emotitoy from chargen which you intend to upgrade later in play to a full suite of empathy software. In fact, looking at the "I already gave up on *. I'm waiting until I have infinite karma and nuyen to afford it." sounds kind of like your aim is to (eventually) grow a Jack Of All Trades from an initial Specialist (because BP chargen doesn't penalise specialist builds). A more common / reasonable approach would be to start with a generalist who can turn his hand to any task (to make sure you can always contribute to each part of a run, always justifiably get a share of the karma and nuyen) and then chooses a field or two to develop further.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (redwulf25 @ May 30 2011, 05:25 PM) *
No . . . they're saying a lot of technomancers (at least a lot of technomancers created by players) were online during crash 2.0 and became physically unfit after some time in a coma getting their only nourishment through an IV drip. Others were subjected to horrific experiments that may have impacted their health lowering some or all of their physical stats.


Very Poor rationalization for having 1's in all Physical Stats... smile.gif
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