So what happens if a TM has a Simsense Booster? It says it gives a boost to IP while in VR, and a TM is in VR, just not through the normal channels. Does the booster still help?

I can see arguments for both sides, but I'm curious what others think.

A couple threads about this before. I think the FAQ says they can use it as normal? As it's cyberware, and doesn't say anything about connecting to a comm, it's only fair that Technomancers can use it. I honestly can't see any argument against it.

Oh nice, finally an exploit for something moving with six IP.

Well, there's text that says 4 is the maximum and then text that says 'ok, you can have 5 with x, y or z, but seriously that's the limit' but no mention of 6, so I'd say not.

I see two pieces of text in Unwired that say I can have 5 IPs.
I see no text which says I can have 6. Until I do, that's a no go on 6 IPs.

Well, there is no passage that says you cannot combine Simsense boosters with the accelerate echos (which are good for 5 IP in the flesh with that avatar-as-real echo). Since A works with B for n+1, and n is not hardcapped in the case of avatar-for-real thingy, why can't n+1 be 6? Or, even disregarding a4r echo thingy, find me a reason why this prevents a matrix initiative of 6 and rigging a drone with it (Which alwways uses matrix initiative).

Because the maximum number of IP you can have is 4, unless you have one of the two things that says: You are allowed to have a max of five IP. I don't know how "You may have five IP." means 'You can have six IP.' This applies to living personas just as much as anything else, which is what I believe you mean by 'avatar-for-real thingy', so n in your example is in fact hard capped.

Well, I also see both sides, but for Technomancers, I err on the side of Echoes. Since a Technomancer can get there by Echoes, why give him the accessability to that particular piece of Cyberware? Yes, I know, it reduces his Resonance, so should be his choice, but it just seems... wrong?

That being said, the technology route is much cheaper.

*Shrug*

Indeed, definitely not 6. It's a tradeoff the PC has to make: spend cash and Essence on a boost *now*, or wait to get the Echoes. It seems fair. Getting the Booster means losing a point of Resonance (naturally, careful choices can cram other 'ware in there), and 65k's not nothing.

You *could* certainly house rule that it's not compatible with the bionode—plenty of room there to just say, 'doesn't work, it's technomagic, okay!?' If your group and campaign would be better that way, do it.

Kind of what I was thinking. Yeah, you can get it now, but you'll still have to get advanced overclock to hit 5 IP, so in the long run it doesn't offer any advantage in that regard. Now, that said, you've already taken the essence hit, so you can always trade it out later for other stuff, but you're still spending a bunch of nuyen in the process (Not that TMs really have any use for nuyen at all).

And yeah, could easily rule it the other way. Presumably a simsense booster works in concert with a simsense module of some kind, but a TM doesn't have that.

So like I said, I can see arguments for both sides.

Because it doesn't say "you may have up to 5 IP" but "you may exceed the limit of 4 IP with this gear/echo, resulting in 5 IP". Nothing says 5 is the definite hardcap.

And given this was written by Aaron Pavao, and how he loves to build munchkin-compatible rules (he has said so himself) and how he gives extra Karma formunchkin gaming in his home group (again, he said so himself), it'S reasonable this is intended.

For his Home Group, Maybe...

Yeah, the crazed writer's opinion is not important. The hardcap is 5. There is no 6th phase.

Heh... Why should it be?

I wasn't being sarcastic. Writer intent only matters insofar as they're not insane!

Hehe, crazed writer. Can't help but imagine someone foaming at the mouth as they pound furiously at their keyboard, a wild look in their eyes.

I wonder if this is the same writer that came up with the emotitoy? Seems it either had to be a power gamer, or someone who didn't know (perhaps because it was changed at some point) anything about the empathy software.

Oh, I know Yerameyahu. Opinion does not belong in a Rule. They are different things. Aaron's (possible) Opinion that maybe it should stack to give 6 IP is in direct contrevention of the ruling that Hard Max is 4, with 2 Exceptions. Not saying that he is insane or anything, because maybe he likes those kind of games, and rewards them. But the opinion does not match the ruling. *shrug*.

Well,he openly said in the War! discussion thread of old he deeply appreciates that Slow can be turned into a bullet shield, which totally is not what the spell is drescribed as, and that this was intent on his part. And an unclearly worded rule - and the cap-exceeding IP are - is pen to interpretations, even inane ones. There's an entire profession specialising in this. They're called lawyers.

And we know that Slow is also a bad thing. I appreciate this Behind the Music information, of course. I just wouldn't give a broken opinion weight, hehe.

Yes, the IP cap rules could (should) be stated much more clearly.

That is really all I want to say. It's nowhere worded that 5 is the absolute, definitive hardcap on initiative passes ever (as was in the SR3 Matrix book, where it was very clearly worded that no matter what is combined and what is done, 5 dice is all there ever will be in initiative). It is not in SR4. Since SR4'S base philosophy is "what is not explicitly illegal is legal" and "GM decision, bitches, so don't expect us to make an effort", 6 IP with this exploit is not illegal.

I recommend any player who avtually builds this to be hit with the core book on the head, repeatedly, of course. Best, just ban Technomunchkins altogether, but that's only me.

So both specifically say that they grant 5 IPs and are an exception to the normal 4 IP cap. Neither of them says "If you have this, the 4 IP cap no longer applies." or anything like that. They both point very directly to you now having 5 IP.

No. Both say this is an exception to the rule that normally limits IPs, which is an entirely different thing to say. Yes, they say you then, applying this item, have a maximum IP of 5, because 4+1=5. they do not say "This, however, is the maximum IP that can ever be achieved, and no possible exploit will ever change that". If that definite hardcap was the intention, it is very poorly worded. Deducting from this that 5 IP is the definite hardcap is just as possible as saying "in conjunction, this means 6 IP", because both the echo and the 'ware are allowed to exceed the limit, with no other limit being given.

Indeed. The point is that it's bad wording on the technical level, and it's well made.

No, it says 'This gives you an IP of 5, which is an exception to the normal rule of a max of 4' And exception is a particular case, an exception is not 'this rule no longer applies in any cases'.

I agree. It specifically says 'you=5'.

I compare this to Matrix - whcih has striking similarities in topics, gear and organisation to Unwired - and which also had Initiaitve dice bloat in SR3. There, they had a very specific hardcap on IP dice and nothing would allow you to exceed it forever (there were such exploits, too). Such a rule is absent fro Unwired. That makesme wonder.

It is not explicitly allowed, yes, but the rules of SR4 work exclusively, not inclusively. if it'S not excluded explicitly, it's fair game.

And 6 IP from this combo is not excluded explicitly.

There is nothing in the books that even hints at allowing 6 IP. From RAW a simsense booster would work for a Techno, but from a fluff standpoint I take issues, mainly in that there is no sensible way that they could make 'ware that would augment a living persona in such a way, it doesn't make sense.

That said I don't think it breaks Technos to be able to sacrifice their resonance for an early extra pass.



So you get your information by comparing things to things that are completely irrelevant to the case at hand? It would explain why you're wrong.

Unwired pg 198

"It is compatible with simsense booster cyberware (so a
hacker in hot sim with a simsense accelerator and simsense booster
cyberware has 5 Initiative Passes). Initiative Passes; this is an exception
to the rule that normally limits IPs to 4)."

It mentions that a hacker who has booth these enhancements has 5 IP, and that this is a specific exception to the normal 4 IP rule. As it specifically says you get 5 passes, there is no information to say that 6 would ever be possible, ergo anyone saying 6 would be allowed is wrong.

In fact I was a little wrong before, a Techno cannot use a simsense booster to get 5 passes, because a simsense booster specifically says it stacks with a simsense accelerator to allow 5 passes, and Technos can't use a simsense accelerator.

Correct, so they get their 4th pass quicker, but take just as long to get their 5th pass. I figure it isn't very game breaking or anything.

No, I do not. Can you read?


It isn't forbidden, therefore it is okay so long as the GM takes no offense to it. Looked into your Core Rules lately? That's no conclusive evidence.

But that it needs a simsense accelerator stops this exploit in it's tracks.

hermit, you aren't talking about a simsense booster, you're talking about a simsense accelerator. The accelerator is a commlink modification. It can't be used to modify a living persona, as a living persona had no modification slots.

If you are talking about adding a simsense booster to Advanced Overclocking, the advanced overclocking description caps your IPs at 5.

You know what else isn't forbidden? Grabbing a quantum string and pulling on it to cause your opponents to be spontaneously erased from existence. No roll or anything!

GM approval is irrelevant because GM dis/approval can overturn actual rules if so desired, so you can't use 'if the GM approves, I can have 6 IP' as an argument, because if the GM approves, I can naturally have 8 IP and 20s in all stats.

You're referencing an SR3 book, it's irrelevant and can only weaken any points you make.

There are only two things in any SR4 books I can find that allow a character to exceed 4 IPs, the simsense accelerator, and the advanced overclocking echo. The simsense accelerator mentions it stacks with a simsense booster to give the character 5 IP(which it specifically mentions the character would have 5 IP, and this is an exception to the 4 IP rule). Advanced overclocking could be argued would stack with the simsense booster, but it's irrelevant as it requires overclocking as a prerequisite, and once again caps you at 5 IP specifically.

Since a technomancer cannot benefit from a simsense accelerator(it's a commlink accessory that increases the commlinks persona, not a living persona), a techno cannot get 5 IP without advanced overlocking. A simsense booster technically works by the rules to give 4 IP, but really it's not that expensive to submerge yourself once to get overclocking, so it's kinda silly to do.

Right. Because ... you say so? Pointing out how excessive IP were handled in previous editions is evil becaue ... why? It doesn't please you?

As for the rest: I agrees in my last post already. It seems you really cannot read.

Because we're talking about SR4, and SR3 rules have nothing to do with SR4, and bringing up irrelevant book entries to make your point sound valid are needlessly confusing. If I was a lawyer in US court, and brought up a law in the articles of confederation, I'd probably be laughed out of court.

Which is nonsense, given thesimilarities between the two books in question (the gear even has the same names in large arts).


I'm not going there, but I think this is baiting, is it not?

Not baiting, more a (admittedly hyperbole) metaphor used to elaborate a point.

Your translator makes it difficult to decipher into English.

Unlike you, I at least make an effort at foreign languages. But I admit, reverse translating equipment names from translated books leads to strange results.

You have no idea how many languages I, or anyone on this board, do or do not speak.
For example, every Texan has to speak a little bit of Spanish just to order a hamburger.

I'm sorry, TJ, but the rules are pretty clear. Just because it says "This is an exception" here and "this is an exception" there does not mean they equal two cumulative exceptions.

You deal out but can't take in well, can you?


They are clear because stacking the exceptions does not work because of other issues, not because stacking two boni doesn't work in SR4. Or does "custom grip adds 1 die to the pool" and "smartlink adds 2 die to the pool" also not stack?

And I'm not TJ. I also had this avatar a lot longer than him.

I wasn't making fun of you or disrespecting you in any way. I'm sorry if it came off that way. I was saying that the way your posts are translated into English are honestly difficult to understand sometimes.
With the way your post was translated, your acceptance of the 5 IP limit was not clear. I was letting you know why we didn't understand you.

You, on the other hand, felt the need to imply I and other posters couldn't read and were monolingual.

.

Actually, Personalized Grip adds one point of recoil compensation to ranged weapons, and a die to melee weapons. Smartlink doesn`t seem to have much of an effect on melee weapons.

Oh, it does? Good to know, but doesn't invalidate my point. What about a reflex recorder and smartlink? Do those not stack?

I think you have me confused with Hermit there Cain... But that is okay, apparently it happens from time to time.

A Reflex Recorder adds a Level to the Skill Chosen, and a Smartlink adds Bonus Dice... They are not the same kind of bonus here, so do not interact in the same ways. So No, they don't.

Good job, dudes. A couple of reports coming in regarding this thread.

Not sure Why, but okay...

Bitching and moaning. And everyone's just an innocent victim.