I've heard rumors of a group of dwarves at cons who have some sort of bracelet sensor array that they use to meet their tacnet requirements.

Does anyone know what their load-out is, or if not, what do you use for a personal sensor array to meet your tacnet needs?

I would guess its a bracelet with a ton of Sensor RFID Tags, OR possibly a Handheld Sensor Package, of the various sensor package sizes.


I tend to use skinlinked glasses/goggles+earbuds for a tacnet.

I don't know what that particular group is using, but 8 sensors for Tac-Net 4 is really easy to get to. One bracelet (i.e. handheld sensor package) could have a camera with low-light, thermo, smartlink, and ultrasound; a microphone with a spatial recognizer; and a cyberware scanner. That's 8 sensor channels already.

But like Udoshi said, you can get the same from glasses and earbuds, plus you'll be personally using the enhancements without having to point your hand at what you're looking at.

I think I see where I have been misunderstanding things, so correct me if this is wrong:

A handheld sensor has a capacity of 3 (SR4A 334). That capacity can hold a camera (up to capacity 6 pg 332) , microphone (up to capacity 6 pg 332) , and radio signal scanner.

OK. On further reflection, I HOPE that's wrong, because that means an RFID tag (capacity 1) can hold a camera or microphone (capacity 6).

I don't know if the tacnet bonus would off set the Notoriety penalty one would get for going on a Shadowrun wearing matching friendship bracelets.

Well, Seeing as how a Microdrone only gets a Sensor Capacity of 1, with a Sensor Rating (of only 1). I would have a hard time believeing that an RFID, which is SMALLER, could have a higher rated Sensor than a Microdrone. Which would still be enough to support a Rating 1 Tacnet.

It's in the rules already. RFIDs are limited to Rating 1 and they're really not intended for 'active' sensors in the first place. Things like ambient temp yes, cameras no. A handheld sensor is bigger than a bracelet (yes, maybe even those comically giant watches they're selling men these days). Micro cameras are also limited to Rating 1.

So the RFID have a capacity of 1 that's limited to a capacity of 1 if I'm understanding this right.
The micro (size of a dime) have a capacity of 1 without the above limitation, so they can hold a capacity 6 camera. Is this correct?
And the handheld works as described above, 3 capacity each with their own capacity if applicable, correct?

No, micro cameras are also limited to 1.

As for the rest, sure. Wear more if you need more cap. Velcro to your chest.

It is not correct. People are forgetting to quote their sensor tag rules.

Rating 1 sensors in tags only.

Since the rating of a camera or microphone determines how may accessories it may have, that also means 1 accessory.


Still. Thats 4 channels. (camera, thermo, mic, spatial recognizer)

I would suggest the handheld sensor package instead. Sadly, there isn't a price for it - i would assume that buying a relevant sensor lets you choose a package it may go in.

Yeah, it's like how buying a Canon camera 'includes' the body.

I want to make sure what you're saying.
The Micro camera has a capacity limit of 1 (which you're using for thermo).
It also comes WITH a microphone (trid?) which also has it's OWN capacity of 1 (which you're using for special recognizer).
That gives 4 channels on the micro, correct?

Upgrading to the handheld size: If it has a camera with a capacity of 6, does that also include a microphone with it's own capacity of 6?
If not does the microphone (cap 6) need to be purchased separately and what's the capacity on the microphone of a capacity 6 camera?
If so, does the microphone take up no slots on the camera, one slot on the camera, or one slot on the handheld.

In My opinion, there is only a single Upgrade Slot in the Rating 1 Camera. You could use either Thermographic or Spatial Recognizer, as both take up a slot. This would give you 3 functional Sensor channels, not 4, as the Internal Microphone has no inherent slots of its own. The CAMERA has the Slot, which can be used for either a visual or aural upgrade. For a Rating 6 Camera, you have 6 Slots, but will end up with 7 Channels due to the Inherent Microphone already present.

whups. Accidentally posted on a friends computer. Correct reply is below.

You have it wrong.

Cameras have built in sound capabilities - thats it. Jack squad else. nada. To actually get sound accessories and a decent rating, buy a microphone.

I was using two sensor tags. One for the camera, one for the microphone. Kind of forgot to say it.

To reiterate: Camera Does Not Equal Free Microphone. Accessories sold seperately. Basically, what Tymeaus said.

Sensor tags really aren't for that, anyway. Not that—as we mentioned—sensor packages cost anything. Just use handhelds.

If i see the dwarves at Origins or Gencon i'll ask them. I'm not usuaully in the business of auditing sheets so it sounds plausable, really it's plausable all around it's just a matter of packaging and how nitpicky the GM wants to be about relevant sensor channels.

Ok. So, TJ says the camera comes with a mic. Udoshi says t doesn't. If it comes with the microphone the available slots can be used for audio OR visual mods.

Going further down the rabbit hole:
Smartguns come with guncams (SR4A 322 - more implied than rule since "guncam" as a term first appears in Arsenal)
Guncams are trideo (AR 33)
Trideo have microphones so that's at least 2 sensor channels on a smartgun.
Guncams can have visual enhancements (either unlimited according to RAW as far as I can find or up to the gun's capacity according to DaisyBox's character generator. Not sure what rule I haven't found that DaisyBox is using.)
I can't find anything saying that guncams can or cannot have audio enhancements, but I'm willing to go with can't.

So smartgun (2), biomonitor (1) , earbuds with spacial & audio enhancement (3) and goggles/glasses/contacts/cybereyes with smartlink (2 minimum) = 8 sensor channels minimum. Those lacking in above could pick up RFID microphones with spacial for 2 channels.

So, TJ says the camera comes with a mic. Udoshi says t doesn't. If it comes with the microphone the available slots can be used for audio OR visual mods.

Trideo cameras have sound recording capability. (SR4A p. 332)
Trideo cameras can be upgraded with visualenhancements (same page)

They can record sound, but their rudimentary microphones cannot be upgraded.

Smartguns come with guncams (SR4A 322 - more implied than rule since "guncam" as a term first appears in Arsenal)

You are inferring something that does not exist. Smartguns and guncams are different items.

Guncams are trideo (AR 33)

True, but they are not the trideo cameras from SR4A p. 332.

Guncams can have visual enhancements

Where did you find this? They have no listed capacity.

It looks like you are trying to apply logic to SR rules. That makes for great house rules, but quickly removes you from the RAW.

From AR. page 150

We know from SR4A that Smartguns have cameras and this pretty much says the camera in the smartgun is a guncam, although I'm sure someone could interpret this as meaning the gun needs a guncam and a smartgun both. I'm going with the whole "camera in smartgun is a guncam" interpretation.

This mod seems to be limited by the gun capacity instead of camera capacity as far as visual enhancements go. (Now I see why DaisyBox works the way it does. DUH.)

I apologize for appearing to apply logic to Shadowrun. Unfortunately, I don't know any better way to try and understand these rules than to apply logic and scenarios. (It appears this week I've been charged with 1) Not reading the rules, 2) applying logic to the rules, 3) Not being realistic for proposed homerules (because, unlike RAW, we have a standard for homerules), and 4) proposing a homerule that isn't RAW. )

As far as not being the trideo cameras from SR4A 332, I'm still assuming they have a microphone and therefore 2 channels for a tacnet unless you have some reason for thinking otherwise.

Can you point me in the direction of this rule please? I always thought you could have a rated camera on a microdrone...otherwise the chance of them actually seeing anything interesting (not blindingly obvious) is unlikely!?!

Thanks

Not necessarily microdrones, but micro cameras. It's in the core rules for cameras.

Of course, it *is* a reasonable conclusion that microdrones use microcameras, and that micro sensor packages do too (because microdrones have micro sensor packages). It's just not explicit, as usual. Both of the microdrones in the core book have Sensor 1, though the vehicle Sensor Rating rules are their own mess. There's a microdrone Arsenal with a Sensor 2.

Dug up based on this thread. Posted for clarification.
Micro Cameras SR4A 322
RFID SR4A 329
Note sure a handheld is actually bigger than a bracelet (see comments above). All I can find is SR4A 333: Interpret as you will.

Yeah, I feel like 'palm-sized' means around 'a deck of cards', plus or minus a fair bit.

Cameras get you sound, but you can't get any audio enhancements for it. My personal guess is that the writers just didn't think about audio enhancements when they mentioned cameras could get visual enhancement. Likewise, I assume a camera in a RFID tag or microsensor is a microcamera (otherwise, why bother bringing up microcameras). Now you could slap on a bunch of skinlinked RFID cameras and other sensors with 1 enhancement each all over yourself and meet the sensor requirements. If you halfway care about meeting the sensors channels, you can meet it pretty easily. Worst case, you just slap a handheld sensor or two onto your combat vest/pocket.

As for smartlinks, it's mentioned on SR4A p. 322 that it's a "small camera." Since the Shadowrun writers don't use consistent terminology, I think they mean a microcamera. It also explains how you can fit one into a holdout pistol (which don't catch me as having a ton of free room). This does mean that having a smartlink gets you 5 sensor channels by itself. The channels are sight (from camera), sound (from camera), laser range finder (comes with smartlink), smartlink itself, and 1 vision enhancement on the camera. It makes meeting the requirements easy as all heck, but they were easy anyways (see above).

Honestly, the problem I typically see with trying to reach a TacNet 4 is getting the 6 needed to run it. To that end, I devised a minidrone that is cheap, small, and counts towards a rating 4 tacnet. I call it the TacNet Buddy. You keep it on your combat vest and counts as a person on your tacnet.

TacNet Buddy Build:

You can have rated cameras on micro drones.

I think you are confusing a ton of similiarly worded lingo

MicroDRONE is not Micro Button Camera(explicitly counts as rating 1) or a sensor tag(explicitly holds a rating 1 sensor) but DOES have a 3 capacity Microdrone sensor array because it is a drone, which has no relation to a Micro or RFID sensor package (see table on 4a 334). If that helps.




This is the right of things. Trid cameras have sound, but are not Microphones, and don't use the rules for them. Thank you for the clarification.



Regarding Smartguns: Accessories vs Mods is a completely fucked up ballgame of inconsistent rules.

The Core Book Smartgun(332) says it has a "small camera" and that it can be equipped with vision enhancements.
Problems: The rating of the camera is not given, so you don't know how many enhancements it may take, unless you assume its 3 because thats its device rating, or you replace it with a better camera.
Problem 2: the core book internal smartlink was written before arsenal's Mod rules, and under basic rules, may still get 'free' vision enhancements.
The Arsenal Smartgun mod(153) says: "This modification is the internal version of the smartgun system." Thats it, and gives an outdated page refernce to 4th edition. So, clearly, it works as it used to, but now takes up a mod slot.
Then there's the arsenal Camera Upgrade mod(smartguns only) that says "this modification upgrades the guncam with vision enhancement systems. It can be taken more than once, each time adding a new vision enhancement system."
Then there's Arsenal's poor guncam (33), which actually has no mention of taking vision enhancements, but I'm kind of ignoring that.

Two things to think about.
1) Since you can have both Accessories and Modifications, why would an Accessory be Better, or have different capabilities, than an Internal one.
2) In that case, why does the camera upgrade mod exist?

The reason for this inconsistency is actually Anniversary Edition: When smartlinks were written, cameras did not actually have ratings. If you check the master tables in the back of Arsenal, its still listed with its old stats.
Under the Old system, accessory limits/capacity did not exist. The only limit was availability and money.
Anniversary edition came along and introduced accessory limits to tone this down. (ultrasound was, in fact, changed -twice-, one in PDF 4a, and again in print, which confused the fuck out of dumpshock for a while. Ditto for Bows)
The rules for Smartlinks were never reconciled with this change. Thanks a million, catalyst.


That being said, the easiest way to incorporate all these rules into a single coherent thing is like this.
All Smartguns have a rating 3 camera, and can have the usual number of enhancements that allows.
if you want more, and have it as a Mod, the guncam upgrade takes over from there.
If you want to spend a ton of money and replace the camera with a new one, or just dodge the question of the cameras rating entirely, use arsenal's rules for changing a package (105)
Thats my advice at least.

Its kind of a broken system because catalyst never went back and gave ratings to all the things with built-in cameras so they could take advantage of the new accessory limitations.

This is the right of things. Trid cameras have sound, but are not Microphones, and don't use the rules for them. Thank you for the clarification.



Regarding Smartguns: Accessories vs Mods is a completely fucked up ballgame of inconsistent rules.

The Core Book Smartgun(332) says it has a "small camera" and that it can be equipped with vision enhancements.
Problems: The rating of the camera is not given, so you don't know how many enhancements it may take, unless you assume its 3 because thats its device rating, or you replace it with a better camera.
Problem 2: the core book internal smartlink was written before arsenal's Mod rules, and under basic rules, may still get 'free' vision enhancements.
The Arsenal Smartgun mod(153) says: "This modification is the internal version of the smartgun system." Thats it, and gives an outdated page refernce to 4th edition. So, clearly, it works as it used to, but now takes up a mod slot.
Then there's the arsenal Camera Upgrade mod(smartguns only) that says "this modification upgrades the guncam with vision enhancement systems. It can be taken more than once, each time adding a new vision enhancement system."
Then there's Arsenal's poor guncam (33), which actually has no mention of taking vision enhancements, but I'm kind of ignoring that.

Two things to think about.
1) Since you can have both Accessories and Modifications, why would an Accessory be Better, or have different capabilities, than an Internal one.
2) In that case, why does the camera upgrade mod exist?

The reason for this inconsistency is actually Anniversary Edition: When smartlinks were written, cameras did not actually have ratings. If you check the master tables in the back of Arsenal, its still listed with its old stats.
Under the Old system, accessory limits/capacity did not exist. The only limit was availability and money.
Anniversary edition came along and introduced accessory limits to tone this down. (ultrasound was, in fact, changed -twice-, one in PDF 4a, and again in print, which confused the fuck out of dumpshock for a while. Ditto for Bows)
The rules for Smartlinks were never reconciled with this change. Thanks a million, catalyst.


That being said, the easiest way to incorporate all these rules into a single coherent thing is like this.
All Smartguns have a rating 3 camera, and can have the usual number of enhancements that allows.
if you want more, and have it as a Mod, the guncam upgrade takes over from there.
If you want to spend a ton of money and replace the camera with a new one, or just dodge the question of the cameras rating entirely, use arsenal's rules for changing a package (105)

Also i think most shadowrunners are smarter then to invoke Murphy's wrath.

Murphy's Law: If it looks stupid and it works, it's not stupid.

Wasn't that what the entirety of Attitude was about?

As for the capacity argument; if a camera takes up 1 capacity slot, but has a capacity of 6, couldn't you use one of those slots for another camera? Now you have an infinite amount of modifications!
That is how ridiculous the entirety of this whole thing sounds.

NO, because the list of what can be used in those slots is specific, although slightly nonsensical.
The slots in, for example, a handheld sensor, can be used by sensors but not enhancements. The slots in the sensor itself can be used by enhancements based on the primary purpose of the item but not other sensors. For example, a camera comes with the ability to record sound, but for some odd reason cannot have sound enhancements in it's slots nor can it have a microphone in one of it's slots. The handheld device simply needs to contain it's own microphone. (Which, in the long run, works fine.)

It's no more confusing than "device rating" (SR4A 311) and "device rating" (SR4A 222).

I think a slightly cheaper (non Attitude based version) might look like this - although please tell me if I've done something wrong!

I have that being at 4100Y. More than my TacNet Buddy, but yours have the advantage of being a size category smaller. I never realized for some reason that vision magnification counts as a channel. I'm also not sure if you can put a normal camera on a minidrone either.

How I got the 4100Y


Playing around with some of the mods, I was able to reduce the price of my TacNet Buddy to 1775Y. With no item having an availability greater than 12, you should easily be able to buy a few as a starting character.

TacNet Buddy Cheap Edition


Edit- Due to some weird keyboard bindings, this posted too soon.

You don't have to use the Clockwork Owl. I use it since you can save on the Improved Sensor Array. If you can fit another enhancement on the microphone without making the availability higher than 12, you can skip on the Improved Sensor Array entirely. The Bust-a-Move is the cheapest, but I can't blame you if you want to pay the extra 1000Y or so to get something respectable like a iBall or even more for a Fly Spy. The Fly Spy has the advantage of being able to fly so you don't have to carry the darn thing too.

I'm still not sure that a drone doesn't count as it's own member.

Unwired pg 125


If you're running the centralized tacnet, well, I'm completely lost because I'm not sure HOW by RAW you slave anything to a slave. Hopefully it's in there somewhere and I missed it. So far I've gotten by the issue by ignoring it completely. It may be possible slave the drone to your commlink, slave the commlink to whatever is running the tacnet, and count the drone as part of your membership's sensors, but I'm not sure RAW or eve RAI supports it. (My personal opinion supports it, but that doesn't matter.)

Note that the flip side of this appears to be supported by RAW. (But don't flip it, it's cheesy...) If you have the required sensors AND you have a bunch of sensor drones, you can effectively run your own personal centralized tacnet, getting a nice big personal bonus. So 5 tiny silent drones with 8 sensor channels each can really be an assassin's best friends.

If those drones are spread out around the relevant area, then that's why the tacnet is intended for. If they're just sitting on your shoulder, then no.

My group and I have looked for anything for or against slaving to a slave. The best we could come up with was yes and all messages are funneled along to the ultimate master. The ultimate master can't be slaved to anything in the chain since that'll start a request loop for all requests and nothing would ever be executed. What you can do is make your master the Ultimate Boss of the Internet and that's what corporations do locally. This explains the common GM practice of having one master node for a whole building (which would be really hard to get enough subscription channels for otherwise) that the hacker has to hack to take over the building.

In addition, it makes you vulnerable to spoofing. Spoofing is also useful in combat. Rather than having to hack on the fly to dominate someone's smartgun over several turns, you can spoof it to eject the clip as a complex action. So we thought it all worked out for the better if you allow slaving of a slave.

There is the problem if everything is ultimately slaved to Jumped in Rigger Steve at Zurich Orbital Bank. Then really nothing is hackable, only spoofable. Since the SR Matrix rules run into that sort of problems already, it isn't too much of a difference. You can justify not doing it due to signal quality or whatever.

Unwired 55 -
Unwired 99 -
So, the spoof is at -6 dice.

Pre-Unwired, spoofing was a lot easier. Post Unwired, Slamm-O! gets his butt kicked by Netcat in the "who can get the drone in the window" contest.

That's annoying. But since you target the slave and not the master, that makes it easier.

Easier in the sense that you take a -6 and it's exactly the same?

Unless folks want to get into a really nitpicky rules debate shall we admit that the Matrix rules are like a highly delicate jello scultpure, it works as long as you don't poke it too hard.

Edit Addendum: Also for what it's worth i might allow people to use this drone to satisfy the sensor requirements, I would not allow them to hang multiple drones off their body to satisfy the members requirements. The whole point of the more members part of the tactnet is the multiple angles and view points giving a greater strategic picture, hanging two drones off your chest sort of runs cross grained to that.

It's more that the -6 sucks, but at least you're going with the likely smaller dice pool of device (likely device rating 3). With Hacking 6 + Spoof 6 + PuSHeD 1 - Admin 6 (a value any hacker would have) versus a dice pool of 6, that's a 45% chance. Not great, but there's no penalty for failure (besides an IP). If you focus on spoofing you can still do okay. If you live in a world where everything is slaved, it's not bad to focus on it. If you're a technomancer, your pools can still be pretty nice even with -6.

I guess everything could have upgraded, but I see that less likely than everything having those value normally.

Ah, I dig. The master is expected to be the hardest hacking target, yeah. I thought you meant vs. spoofing.