Does the optional rule alllowing adepts to take a power point rather than a metamagic not apply to Mystic Adepts? Does the rule actually say Mystic Adepts can't use it? The reason I ask is that as the Mystic Adept is written their spellcasting/summoning abilities are just another power that they can put points into.

It's not defined, so you'll have to ask the GM.

How do you reach that conclusion? Reading the entry on mystic adepts on p. 195 of SR4A, it doesn't say anywhere that mystic adepts can spend power points to improve their mana-based abilities. They can spend Magic points to gain power points, which are then spent to purchase adept powers, but any Magic points so expended explicitly do not count toward their spellcasting/summoning abilities. I would say that mystic adepts can make use of the optional rule allowing them to gain power points at initiation, but those power points can only be used to improve adept powers or purchase new ones. Neither spellcasting nor conjuring is an adept power.

I'd like to second what Tanegar said; had it all typed up but he got to it first.

I see were the problem is. Yes the book actually talks about splitting the magic score between spell casting and powers but the charcter generators availble treat it as a total point system rather then two different pools. However letting the Mystic Adept use the optional rule to add power points to the powers side still allows them to draw closer to regular spell slingers without totally ignoring the power side of the Mysatic Adept.

Mystic Adepts shouldn't be able to get close to regular casters IMO. Letting them go up one Magic twice as fast as a regular caster will break them wide open. that's just me though, maybe your GM is less concerned about balance. If so, stick it to 'im!

I am the GM, lol. I have a new player and he wanted to play a Mystic Adept and I was brushing up on the rules about them and the chargen we use from this site treats the magic as a point system where you can put points into spellcasting/summoning and other adept powers. I knew something was out of whack but could not put my fiinger on it so thought I would ask. Thanks all.

Mystic adepts can't improve their Magic any faster (or cheaper) than full magicians. Remember, a power point is not the same as a point of Magic. IMO, the possibility of gaining power points at initiation actually makes mystic adepts much more interesting, because it makes the choice more meaningful: as spellcasters, there are many more metamagic techniques that a mystic adept would consider valuable compared to a physical adept, and several more compared to a full magician (a mystic adept can take the adept-only metamagics). Sure, he can take a power point and improve his adept powers, but he's missing out on things like Centering, Shielding, Masking, etc. Also, don't forget that mystic adepts miss out on astral projection entirely, and if they want astral perception they have to purchase it as an adept power for a full power point.

I agree completely. The OP talked about magic being treated as another power for mystic adepts. That's what I was replying to. If you treat spellcasting as just another power and if you allow mystic adepts to get power points instead of metamagics, then you're opening up a huge wave of imbalance.

Would it be reasonable to allow an adept character to increase their magic attribute by 0.25 increments instead of having to buy a full point (which is expensive for a single hit)...that way they can increase a bit at a time and feel like they are progressing!?! It would still cost the same karma for the full point and you might say they have to continue buying the full point before spending karma on anything else...just a thought...

Which is different how from the normal method? Many people I game with assign incremental points until the thing they are buying is paid for and fully useable.

And it would work like paying off awarded positive qualities does.

I don't see how giving the mystic adept another "point of magic" to spellcasting creates a huge imbalance. All it gives the adept is a +1 DP on a DP that is (usually) a lot smaller than a normal magician. The Maximum Force is calculated bay the true full magic rating anyway, which does not change by this optional rule.

Aaahm....who is missing things like centering, shielding, masking? Mystic adepts have access to ALL metamagics. Especially masking is a metamagic available to EVERY awakened character-"class".

What Tanegar wanted to say, was that if you buy an additional power point, thatinitiation cannot be used for other metamagic techniques. I don't think he tried to say that those techniques weren't available to Mystic Adepts.

The mystic adepts who takes a power point instead of a metamagic during initiation, quite obviously.

That's an interesting house rule and I don't see any real problems with it. If the added bookkeeping isn't an issue for anyone then go for it.

I think the player definitely must commit to completing the Magic increase before spending karma on advancing anything else (so things like bonding foci and learning spells are exempt) and for ALL intents and purposes the character's Magic rating is rounded down.

It's unlikely to come up, but you could hit an issue with burnout. I.e. if the character goes from 1 to 1.25 and then loses a whole point of Magic. Should the 0.25 keep him magically active? It goes quite definitely against the rules, but I'd probably allow it under artistic licence.

If it would have been "obvious" i wouldn´t have asked.

I don't believe that is correct.

Even if you ignore the FAQ (which is completely clear on this matter), the rulebook states: "Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic-based skills." Determining the maximum Force surely is one part of using the skill (it's not only about the dice pool).



Bye
Thanee

Except that the FAQ directly contradicts the SR4A Book. The book indicates that the Full magic rating is used for caps, while the allocated rating is used for dice.

No worries though...

I do in fact ignore the bogus FAQ. The rulebook says explicitly:
Actually it is only about the dice pool. Maximum Force just as Maximum Adept Power Level falls under "for all other purposes".

Yes, I know. In fact, I had written it in the above post, but that part must have gone out with some edits I made.

The FAQ was mostly posted for those who might not know it (and the thread starter especially), not as an argument (could have made that a bit more clear, though, I guess ).



That's not exactly what it says.

Full Magic rating is used for anything that is not "use with Magic-based skills" and "gaining Power Points".

e.g., the latter is surely a cap (PP = Magic) and not a dice pool, yet it is obviously limited.

Now, I'm quite aware of the ambiguity and vagueness here, but IMHO "use with Magic-based skills" is more than just the dice pool (as outlined above).

As in... I read it in the general sense as opposed to the very specialized sense.

Also, I think that Mystic Adepts would be way too powerful otherwise (I do ignore the part of the FAQ, which directly contradicts the rulebook, though, but otherwise, the FAQ is how it should be played IMHO; meant in a "balance sense" not a "rules law sense").



Well, and where does it say so?

It is surely possible to read it that way (I am not denying that, I only say that to me it seems to be meant the other way), but it is hardly a fact.

Bye
Thanee

It says that the partial magic rating grants you dice for magic related skill use. Force is not part of the skill use. To cast a spell you use MAG+Spellcasting/Ritual Spellcasting regardless of the Force of the spell. As such the Maximum Force is part of "for all other purposes".

Also since Adept power levels are explicitly capped at the Full Magic Rating, why should Spell and Spirit Force be handled differently?

Lastly Mystic Adepts are described as less skilled in either discipline not less powerful. Force is only a measure of Power not of skill. Skill is determined by the dice pool and the number of adept powers, which are in fact reduced compared to a full Magician/Adept.

To the Balance aspect, do you really think a Mystic Adept with a 3/3 split would be even viable if you limited him to Force 3 (6 with overcasting)? It gets even worse if the character either has less than MAG 6 or allotted less than 3 to magic related skill use.
Mystic Adepts are an even worse karmasink than magicians and adepts alone. They should at least get something decent for their investment.

I agree that the intent is likely to use the split ratings, and that is how it is played at our table. However, the Mystic Adept would not be overpowered if using the Full Rating for Spell Force Caps. He is still at a dice penalty as compared with an equivalent Magic Rating Full Magician. We have played both ways, and the power differential between the two options was minimal in practice. Unless, of course, you are theory crafting to exagerate the differences, then it can become substantial. Of course, Overcast spells are not as common at our table as they are at some others, so that could also play an important part in the Power Differential.

Anyways...

It says "point" (refering to rating point) not "dice".

The example does say "dice", though, but it is just an example, not the rule. Going just by the example text, I would actually agree with your reading, but the actual rule text doesn't sound like that's all to me.



Is that so?

I look at it this way... when I see the opening words in the Magic chapter in SR4A (p. 177 "Magic Use) ...

"The use of magic largely revolves around the Magic-linked skills of the Sorcery and Conjuring skill groups, though Arcana and Enchanting are essential to round out the versatile magician."

... and then read on, seeing paragraphs suspiciously titled with Skill Names with references to the various sections in the chapter, that detail the whole process, e.g. ...

"SPELLCASTING
...
Using Spellcasting requires a complex action. For more information on spellcasting, see p. 182."

... then I really come to the conclusion, that what is described there is "using Spellcasting" (as in the Skill).




Why not? They are two completely and drastically different systems.

It makes a lot of sense to use different approaches for both.



Yes.

Though, noone forces you to go 3/3. 4/2 is likely the better choice, but it really depends on the specific character.



Oh, Mystic Adepts are very decent for sure.

Bye
Thanee

A small difference, like 1-3 dice, depending on how much actual Adept they are.

The Force cap is the big limit for them (assuming it works that way, of course). That's where they actually give up some power compared to a full-fledged Magician.

Bye
Thanee

I have a Mystic Adept with a 3 Sorcery/2 Adept Split. He is QUITE effective. More effective, even, than the Pure Mages in the group with Magic Ratings of 6-8. Of course, where they went the Power Route, I went the Useful route. The character has over 30 spells, with 50 more waiting in the wings for me to pick up. So, Yes, a Mystic Adept is quite viable, even with a Half Split.

Mystic Adepts DO get something decent. They have access to ALL of the Metamagics in existence, as well as access to both Adept Powers and Spells.

True, the dice difference tends to be very small, and can be made up in several ways. And yes, if you are Capping Force at Assigned points, rather than Attribute Rating, then the Overcasting levels are different, sometimes drastically so. Mage with a Magic of 5 has a Cap of 10, a Mystic Adept with assigned 3 Sorcery has a Cap of 6. But, realistically, the differences between 6 and 10 are usually very minimal. The big difference is that the Mage is taking stun for his Force 6 Spell, while the Mysad is taking Physical. But honestly, I have never seen it make that big of a difference in game play. As I said previously, Most of the Awakened at our table do not Overcast on a whim.

That's a lot of spells.

Bye
Thanee

Indeed it is... Great character to play. Specifically because he Can't just power through every obstacle with his spells. The character has to actually think about things. Besides, If I need a big explosion, there is Tech for that, that does not have to worry about OR.

If I ever get to play SR I'll probably make a mystic adept / Face, with magic to handle the odd situations and a gun/grenades to handle making things die. I made an NPC like that (though with no gun skills) and she turned out pretty well.

What kind of spells and dice pools does the character have? Are there many reisisted spells in the list? As soon as the spell becomes resisted, a certain force is necessary to even get enough usable hits for a successful casting. Having to always overcast to affect drones is a pretty heavy restriction.


Only after initating many times. I doubt many characters will have initiated more than say 4 times. Are you using the deducted rule of getting power points for 15 karma?

Yes that is most definitely so.
What force you can cast spells at has nothing to do with your magical skills what so ever.

I can't speak for that character, but if a full mage can soak the drain from a Force 5/6 spell, so can a mystic adept, since drain resistance doesn't care about your Magic. Once you're soaking it all reliably, it doesn't matter whether it's physical or stun.

Drones are easy to take out: buy a gun and some AV ammo (a sniper rifle can esily get DV 7 and AP -7). Unless they're rigged their defense is going to suck. If they are rigged, hide and let the rest of the group take care of them.

I'm not talking about soaking, I'm talking about generating hits. Hits, not net hits, are limited by a spell's force. So to beat a drone's OR you need force 6+, as you need 1 net hit for a successful casting. The only way to go lower on the Force is to use Edge, which is a finite resource and you can only generate the extra hits with Edge dice.

I'm not only talking about taking them out. Any spell manipulating a drone has to be Force 6+, unless you arbitrarily decide that in case of illusions you only need to beat the OR of the drone's sensors. I find this ruling pretty counter-intuitive, as magic normally can only affect wholes and not parts.

Or you just use indirect combat spell against a drone, those don't care about OR.

Maybe. But anyone relying on one trick should be shot anyway. The spells only help, the character should still have some actual skill.



This is true. Electricity helps a lot, even if it doesn't actually hurt.

I think you misunderstand. I am saying that if a magician can get the hits he needs without overcasting and reliably soak the drain, then the mystic adept can overcast, get the hits he needs, and reliably soak the drain. Yes, you sometimes need Force 6, but as long as your mysad has an effective Magic rating of 3, he can get Force 6 spells.

If you judge the effectiveness of a Magic-based character by their ability to use one of the least effective methods to engage drones, then I fear you look at the whole topic from the wrong direction.

Bye
Thanee

My group tried it both ways and there were a few things that became obvious.

1) When the MA can use his full magic as a limit for force he's essentially as good as the mage. 2-3 dice difference aside there wasn't much of a gap.

2) When the cap is limited to whatever magic he gave to his spell casting any spell that is an opposed test is almost always doomed to failure. Overcasting to get these to work for even the most basic spells adds up over time. This turned him into a liability and it got even worse when there was active counter spelling going on. For the sake of not having a headache we went back to using full magic as the limit.

All in all the MA was either too strong or not strong enough at spell casting. Counter spelling (especially with Way of the Adept) was fine but still it was disappointing when he couldn't even cast a manabolt worth mentioning. We've been thinking of a houserule that the MA picks 2 specific types of spells he can cast at full strength. Any other is penalized. We think this may fix the problem of them either being too good or not good enough. Or at least it seems to on paper. We haven't had a chance to use it.

Actually, drones start at 5 for SR4A, not 6. So Force 5 is fine.

Not much of a difference, but 3 dice is 3 dice (and it's probably the difference in magic between starting mysads and magicians' die pools).

So what do you do, if you do not want to be seen by a drone? Infiltration works, but unless you have lots of Karma your dice pool will not be that great. Improved Invisibility can help in that respect - if you beat the OR.
Trid Phantasm is a great spell against drones as well but also has to beat the OR.
Power Bolting the drone is indeed a bad idea.

@James McMurray: Their OR is 5+ which forms a Threshold of 5 but you need 1 net hit (i.e. hit above the threshold) to successfully cast a spell. Thus Force 6+

10 Dice for Manipulation Spells
6 Dice for any other spells.
Character has a Stacked Spellcasting Focus for Manipulation/Illusion Spells that he normally uses for His Ritual Sorcery Skill Tests as well.

The character has no Illusion or Combat Spells at all, as of yet...
A few resisted Spells, though not many, really.
I have a Great Spell for Drones... it is called a Firearm...



No... You cannot buy a Power Point for 15 Karma at our table, though you can buy a Metamagic for 15 Karma if you like. Assuming that you have initiated in the past anyways. The charactrer is a Grade 3 initiate. Has Masking, Extended Masking, and Flexible Signature. Next initiion should net him the Metamagic of Cleansing.

All in all, a fun character indeed...

Yeah... Soak Pool is base 12 Dice, with +2 for Fetished Spells. Any Spell that has a Drain Code of +2 or greater, he learned as a Fetish Limited Spell. So, 12-14 Dice, no spell ever cast above a Force of 5, and Most cast at Force 3-4 (I do not leave Signatures behind, so no need to clean them after the fact).



Indeed...

Sensors are almost always a Part of a Whole. And Illusion Spells do not generally attack the Drone itself, the Drone picks up what the Illusion is putting out, which is vastly different. Book says Sensors are OR 3. *Shrug* I have seen it go both ways in my time.

Wouldn't this be a good solution to your problem?

Opposed spells are cast using full Magic. Others are limited to the allocated Magic.


For the record, I do not agree, that this is necessary. Mystic Adepts do not need to be able to cast opposed spells as good as any other Magician. That's their downside. If one wants a character with full casting capability, then one should play a full Magician.

"But I can cast spells, so I must be able to solve every problem using spells." is not a valid argument to me.

Bye
Thanee

QFT

Actually, F3 Improved Invisibility auto-beats every drone. They do not even get a resistance roll.



Physical Illusions (at least) only need to meet the OR, not beat it.

Bye
Thanee

Not if you're treating the drone itself as the target. In that case the OR is 5+.

We too have done it both ways...

For us, we decided to Stick with the Cap at Split Rating (at least for now). When it comes to Hit Caps ands Magic, and if you are not facing a Counterspell Monkey, you can generally get away with a Force 3 or 4 Spell to obtain your effects, since you will rarely run into someone with a Willpower greater than 5, and you should not be casting Body Resisted spells at anything other than a Human or Elf when you cast at Low Forces (Dwarves, Orks and Trolls tend to resist these much better).

I have only not gotten the requisite Net hit of 1 just a few times, unless there was a Counterspell mage/Spirit in the vicinity. Yes, It does happen, and with the poor result of 1 Net hit, many of the manipulation spells do very little. But they DO have an effect. It is all based upon the effect that you want for your mage, of course. If you want him to be the Mind Manipulating Mage from Hell (Black Magician Anyone?), then you are best served by a caster with a Higher Magic Attribute Cap (Though you will be noticed almost everytime that you cast a spell). If you prefer the Subtle route, well, you really do not need that High of a Magic Rating to be effective.

Anyways...