The best solution for a game involving the 25mm or 28mm minitures I find is to go with 1"=2 meters. Now that you have that scale you can map out. Honestly I'd just divide the movement by 3 or the IP of the highest number of IP's in play should this become an issue. 9 times out of 10 though, this won't be an issue as the 1 IP guy is too busy dodging bullets to do much else (if they are smart).

Not that RAW is screwy in this regard ---as in the case of the 1IP human guy charging 25 meter to the 3 IP guy (troll street sam standing still). The 1 IP guy goes second (normally) and would get mowed down. On the off chance he spends edge or otherwise goes first he can run his full distance, engage in melee. But by raw on the second IP is not engaged in melee (IIRC) as the distance covered by the 1IP guy has only covered 2/3rds the distance (assuming he needed to run the full distance of 25 meters) and would get shout at and blown away.

OH..idea-moves involving a charge or engagement of the enemy result in the attacker delaying their attack until just before the targets last IP of the round unless they both have the same number of IPs-or the distance covered is equal to or less than attackers movement in terms of 1IP of the defenders. This works cause you divide the PC's or NPC's movement by the number of IP's they have.

Example 1:Ron the sec guard charges tammy the troll street same. Ron's charge move is 25m he has 1 IP< and spends edge to go first. Tammy has 3IP. Ron's charges the full 25 meters to tammy. Due to this house rule, Ron's attack is delayed until the 3IP. Tammy mows down Ron while he is at 8meters away on the first IP.

Example 2:Bob the sec guard charges tammy the troll street same. Bob's move is 25m he has 1 IP< and spends edge to go first. Tammy has 3IP.
Bobs only needs to cover 6 meter to get to Tammy. Due to the fact that 6 meters is less than 25(Bobs Speed)/3(Tammy's IP)=~8 meters, Bob's attack is not delayed and may immediately attack.


As you can see from the example here-while it is possible for it to become an issue, the scenario is a rare one indeed.

7 Meters is the generally accepted Distance (the 21 Foot Rule)...

But that is in real life, where "most" people could never get what would effectively be multiple IPs.

This is true...

Fast Guy gets in his 3IP exactly as far as Slow Guy does in terms of Movement.
Fast Guy can, on the other Hand, act 3 times in the same time Slow Guy can.
Bad Guy can only shoot at slow guy, if bad guy goes before slow guy.
Bad Guy can only shoot at fast guy, if bad guy goes before fast guy.
Or am i misunderstanding something here?

You're fundamentally misunderstanding how the system works here, the number of IP:s doesn't matter at all.
If your moving your full allowance from cover to cover, then the bad guy can shoot you nomatter how many IP:S are involved, as your movement always takes 3 seconds(the length of one combat turn) and the bad guy is acting during those same 3 seconds, so your exposed to his fire while moving.

What if I'm moving less than my combat speed?

Depends....as stated in my solution the 1 IP guy may get there fast enough if he is close enough.

Does the example in the Runner's Toolkit explain any of this sort of thing? Or does it at least describe how to duck the issues in front of players?

Yes. There are circumstances (short distances) where you can legitimately 'get there' in 1 IP. Typically, this would be (Movement rate)/4, though it varies slightly if there are only 3 IPs in the Turn, etc.

What no one can do is 'spring attack'; you can't move 10m, melee, move 10m… without others having a *chance* to act. Because it is impossible, we needn't fret about it. Now, you can pull off things similar to this if you have extra IPs, because you could wait until slower people wasted their actions. Still, they had the possibility of shooting you, if they'd chosen to.

hyphz, I really don't think this should be a big problem for your group. Explain to them that, no, it doesn't work, because movement rate is per Turn (not IP); if they tried it, they would be exposed to attack. The basic rule is 'if it seems too good to be true, it's not!'.

Then you are not chuck norris.

that doesn't make any sense.

My full round speed is 20M
I want to move 5M to cover, but according to you, that's going to take me the full 3 seconds..

why? and what does that have to do with Chuck Norris.

No it will take you exactly 0,75 seconds, for witch time you will be vulnerable to incoming fire.

It is called a 'joke'.

Because that's a situation where precision matters, your GM would use Rate/IPs (4), so you could indeed move 5m in that IP. Technically, anyone aiming at you during that IP still has the chance to shoot you, though (you're still in the open during the whole IP). If the cover were 20m away, people could shoot you during all 4 IPs.

Chuck Norris has only 2 Speeds: Walk and Kill.

Chuck Norris is a tool

Uhm . . only if the OTHER people have 4IP's right?
Else they get to go once, maybe twice and then you are scot free, right?

Yes, obviously. It's too much trouble to keep repeating (divide by N:N=max IPs of anyone in the combat).

In RAW, it seems to be possible. Declare run mode, then you have 23m movement for your turn. Move 10m out, melee, move 10m back. You have moved a total of 20m in the combat turn so you get the -2 penalty but that's all. You only need one IP to do this (by RAW) so no-one else gets a turn to attack you.

And what about poor old Twitch? Is his plight to remain unexplained?

And this is only discussion, because it's not like it was back in the day, when the one guy who had initiative out the ass went and went and went untill he was spent and then everybody else got to chime in, when it was their time . .

I recommend you read the Movement section again, it is pretty explicit. By RAW it does not operate anything like you are suggesting.

Old Twitch had to stop because of simple common sense, I realize in D&D 4E everything is spelled out. Also Twitch if he had Gymnastics might have gotten away with continuing to move while helping up someone, but SR4A and really most games out there leave that adjudication to the GM to fit his tables particular style of play.

Except that in RAW, it is not possible because that 23 Meters of movement happens over 3 seconds. If the opponent has 3IP, you move about 8 meters per IP, so you are cut down before you ever close to your target.

Gun Fu trumps Sword Fu unless your Melee combatant is very very smart about he engages his targets...

What about my Fighter-Doken attack? Have a Troll toss a sword-wielding Dwarf and Sword Fu just turned into Ranged Combat!

Heh... Yep, a Fastball Special is good, assuming you can throw the Dwarf a Goodly number of Meters.

"Throw me"
*WHAT?*
"Throw me! . . But don't tell the elf!"

But as you've said - the movement section has nothing to do with actions. That includes the fact that it doesn't say you can't move and take a Complex Action in the same phase. Twitch suggests you have to give up a phase worth of movement for a Complex Action which doesn't seem to be duplicated anywhere else.

Saying "Well, it's common sense you can't move and help someone up, that's a special case action" doesn't seem to fit either, since actions that _are_ described in the book don't follow the same common sense. You could, for example, move, fire a mounted gun, and then move away from the mount in one IP.

Just to add biodiesel to the fire: What about Parkour?

uses swimming speeds.

Again, no. You can do this if (and only if) you have only one IP, *and* no one else has more than 1 IP. However, it doesn't mean no one else can attack you, during IP 1, 2, 3, 4, (or even 5). I don't understand why you think it does mean that.

I don't know what this Twitch business is, but it sounds like roleplaying. He *chose* not to move while performing an action, because that made fluff sense.

No.


No, see:



Sorry hyphz, as direradiant and Yerameyahu point out, it doesn't work like that and you can't teleport around the battlefield like that.
While you CAN do a sort of spring attack - move-attack-move, its a bad idea for a few reasons.
1) Interception attacks. Trying to disengage means free attacks against you. Those are Free actions, so you can interrupt other players turns with them.
2) You don't get your full Combat Turn movement speed all at once in one Pass. You only get a portion of it. You don't move 20 meters in total all in one go. You move about 5 meters before your turn ends, and you're open to retaliation by everyone else in the combat.
2a) it IS possible to PowerWalk your way into and out of melee range, without using actions, but not with the way you're trying to do. Sadly, it relies on critter powers and other movement rate multiplication tricks, and is so outside the reach of most players to actually pull off.
3) The rule on 4a 149 is the main reason I suggested dividing everyone's movement by 4 all the time. Flexible movement rates and annoying in-combat math that varies depending on who's fighting is just bad rules. You ALREADY divide movement by passes(because the rules say so), so doing it all the time actually makes sense.
4)Almost every other game system out there has a flat movement rate each time a player goes, and NOT having clear rules about it leads to the current confusion and rules clusterfuck we are currently discussing.

No you can not, your either moving or you standing still using the mounted weapon, it's totally imposible to do both of those thinks simultaniously.

Actaully, you can.

Non action to Walk over.
Complex to shoot.
Free action left. You don't need to use it, but you could, for example, go Prone with it and use your remaining movement to crawl away. Or a called shot when you fire.

You just can't do it with the speeds and distances that hyphz thinks you can.

I generally solve this by saying the first IP is the movement pass. Period. It makes it far easier to deal with the rest. If I want to get overly technical, I can say that if you move like that the first pass, you need to give up your free actions during the following IPs or have your movement divided by how many IPs you have and chose to use. Makes it very simple.

Ok, I'm starting to get some idea of how this goes now, so can I post a few clarifying examples to check?

1. A wants to run 23m and give a gun to B. A can declare this in IP 1, but A will not actually get to B until next Combat Turn, and technically will hand over the gun at that time too.

2. A wants to move 10m and give a gun to B. He has 1 IP. In IP 1 he declares a run and holds his Simple actions. In IP 3 he arrives at B, unholds and gives B the gun with his action for that IP.

3. A wants to move 10m and give a gun to B. A has 1 IP but B has 2. In IP 1 A declares a run and holds his Simple actions, and B holds. In IP 2 A moves and B loses his second action because he cannot keep more than one held. In IP 3 A arrives at B, unholds and gives B the gun, then B unholds and fires.

Are those right?

yeah, but just because I'm on DS I'll nitpick Scenario 1, he will get to B at the end of the current combat turn.

Emphasis mine.


haha what?
You're actually houseruling quasi- teleport movement BACK into the game, when it actually doesn't work in the first place?
Instead of using the sane approach?
for the love of god, why?

A Touch of Insanity?

Yes, but too late to act, as in IP 4 he'll still be doing the last quarter of the movement - right?

Maybe his game is based around a squad of Warp Spiders.

Heh... Maybe...

Effictively your delaying the simple action of handing the gun off till the end of last IP you move on.
Using 24m for simplicity in the following example:
1st IP:Run 6 Delay action
2nd IP: Run 6 more
3rd IP:Run 6 more
4th IP: Run 6 more, hand off gun to Player b.
Player B who held his action readies the gun and shoots.
End combat turn.

Back in SR2, IIRC, the system was:

1. Roll Initiative.
2. The (N)PC with the lowest Initiative declares first.
3. Repeat step #2 for all involved (N)PCs in ascending order of Initiative rolls.
4. The (N)PC with the highest Initiative then starts to resolve his actions (i.e. he declares then immediately acts).
5. Repeat step #4 for all involved (N)PCs in descending order of Initiative rolls.

This was meant to reflect that Initiative-enhanced characters had better situational awareness and faster reflexes and thus could react to anyone slower than them. Of course, this also meant that characters with low Initiative propably never resolved their actions as they had already been killed or incapacitated by then – frustrating for the players if this struck their PCs...

SR2 was deep in Pink Mohawk territory and the combat system IMHO expected all PCs to have some sort of Initiative enhancements.

Can't be done, once character a is done moving that 24m the whole 3s combat turn is over.
That character could do it for 18m, moving of witch only takes the first 3IP:s.

Handing the gun takes no time, only an action. There's no reason to rule that way, Mäx.

So wish i could post the Star trek double facepalm picture right about know.
So your seriously saying that actions take no time at all, then why exactly are we limited in the amount of actions we can do during that one 3s combat turn?

Actions can be taken before, during, or after movement. There's no rules-backed reason to say that the end of the turn must coincide exactly with the end of movement, and that after that last movement is fully taken there can be no more actions. If you still have actions to take during the last IP, you can take them after you've moved.

In that sense, actions take no time. You're simply allotted them.

Ok. Sorry, one more question..

Since you can use delaying to take your Simple/Complex actions at any point in the turn, what is the practical difference between these and Free Actions? I mention this only because the rulebook seems to highlight that Free Axtions can be taken at any point in the turn after your Phase, but this seems to be true for other action types as well.

Also, it was really interesting to learn that SR2 used PBEM style initiative. What did 1 and 3 use?

It's very simple, Mäx: you have actions, not time. Time is not important in SR4, actions and IPs are. Obviously, they are related in an abstract way, but that is *not* a reason to start inventing rules like 'there's no time at the end of your phase to act'.

hyphz, they're different 'size' actions, which is a big enough distinction for me. I've never really thought about the Free action feature of being taking any time. You get 1 Complex + 1 Free, or 2 Simple + 1 Free, or you can trade anything larger in for more Free.

The only reasonable way to use the current movement rules is to assume there is a constant number of IP's. AFAIK, the most possible IPs in the game is 5. Somebody, somewhere in the world has 5 IPS, and (seeing as they are a hacker, so can affect things almost anywhere in the world) they might do something that affects your combat. Thus, for movement purposes, you have to assume there are 5 IPs, right?
Except, that kinda makes for crap game play. Diving for cover is pretty much not an option, even against totally un-augmented enemies. Also, having everybody move 5 times per turn is just a pain in the ass.

I'd compromise by having everybody move just 2 times per turn, using half their move rate. If there's only 1 IP (rare), then you add a second IP just for movement. If there more than 2 IPs, that's fine- you get to pick which 2 you want to move in. Keeps the math simple, and (IMO) simulates the fog of combat nicely; once bullets start flying, friends and enemies are often not where you expect them to be.

You can dive for cover, you just can't 'dive' 20 *meters* for cover.

I'm sure any of these are valid (that is, fun) ways to play the game. The RAW way is to ignore it until it matters, and then to use the most IPs anyone has. If that's too flexible, then do feel free to screw with it, heh.