For one of my characters, I equipped a troll character with an Auto Assault 18, the crazy auto shotgun. After getting the restricted gear quality and all the stuff needed, I was curious what other GM's thought about it, if they would allow it as I view it, and any fine tuned adjustments for it.

Auto Assault 18-
Sling (weapon accessory)
Foregrip (weapon accessory version)
Additional Clip (weapon mod)
Extended Clip (Weapon mod)
Personalized Grip (weapon mod)
Extreme Environment Mod 1 (weapon mod)
and a Smartgun system.
Gas Vent 2 (stock mod).
Weapon personality (accessory)

So if I understand this right and everything, I should have a potentially fully auto shotgun, 7P, -1 AP, Recoil Compensation of 5 (6 with strength rules) that has 2 drums of rounds each with 40 shots each (the idea being I fill one with non-lethal rounds [stick and shock or gel, hadn't decided] and the other with something more lethal (Flare rounds or EX-explosive]). My concern is about the drums. To me, it makes sense to treat the drum as a clip as it is the stock model. Do I Need to upgrade it to the 50 or 100 round drums to be technically "game legal"? Also, is it possible to get the gas vent 3 accessory for the shotgun, even though it traditionally states they are for rifles and machine guns, this weapon has it?

Yes, I realize that there are more effective ways of getting a crazy weapon, usually through the Ares Alpha series, but I wanted to do something a lil different. Suggestions?

EDIT: The 2 clips are ideally capable of holding 40 rounds. 32 + 25% = 40.

Armor-Piercing Flechettes from WAR! would make an -excellent- addition to this gun. They even benefit from the AA-16's special suppressive fire/flechette rules.

You can't have both a mod and an accessory of the same thing, per arsenal's rules. Perhaps your GM would let you upgrade it to a gasvent 3 by paying the difference. Thats what ours does.

Are you sure that all your recoil compensation stacks? I haven't bothered to check it. How many mod slots do you have left?

Actually, the RC all appears to stack.

Recoil compensation from an auto-adjusting weight, bipod,
foregrip, gyromount, sling, tripod, or underbarrel weight are
not cumulative with each other (except that the compensation
from a foregrip and sling can be combined into an overall
recoil compensation of 2).

Recoil compensation from a folding stock, hip pad, rigid
stock, shock pad, or sling are not cumulative with each other

Recoil compensation from a gas-vent system is not cumulative
with that from any other gas-vent system.

Recoil compensation from electronic firing and personalized
grip are not cumulative with each other.

Now just toss an under-barrel bola launcher (complete with monofilament bola) on that sucker, and you're good to go.


~R~

If a GM bans that, I think they would have to ban half of all possible character permutations before they allowed me at the table. Looks like you're just playing a gun-nut in game. I don't see any problem.

There's no reason to ban it. It's just a stock gun with RC and extra ammo. It's effectively the same as off-the-shelf, for game balance.

There are some pretty slick weapon combos that can be put together.

You can use a basic hold-out to drop a troll for ~400 nuyen (IIRC).

Or, you can pick up a bullet hose.

A P93 Praetor E SMG, costs 850 out of the box and has a 50 round clip. Slap Additional Clip on one and you've got basically a 100 round capacity for 1,700 nuyen. Add the obligatory smartlink and you can, as a free action, switch between the clips. For an extra 500, you can up the weapon's capacity with Extended Clip to 126 rounds. By adding Gas Vent 3, Foregrip, and a Shock Pad, you can bring the weapon up to a recoil compensation of 8.

The total cost of this is 2,700 at an Availably of 11.

If you have a dicepool in the high twenties and/or use SnS. An unaugmented BOD 5 troll would also help.

I still prefer two of those:
Ingram Smartgun X 650¥
-GasVent 3 400¥
-Improved Range Finder 1000¥
-Personalized Grip 100¥
-Underbarrel Weight 25¥

I know it has less ammo and less RC while being more expensive but. It is Availability 6R despite being suppresed, which means you can have it with you without being arrested and you can get spare parts more easily.

As for performance:
- you get two recoilless Long Bursts if the GM permits or one long one short burst with strict RAW.
- you can have to recoilless suppressed short bursts.
- No range penalty up to 40m.

If yxou want the weapons less traceable to you and even more silent, drop the IRF and get Electronic Firing.

The Shock Pad doesn't stack with the Stock of the P93.

You can do Gas Vent 3 and Auto-Adjusting Underbarrel Weight with the Electronic Firing model for an RC of 8, however, so you can do a Long and Short Burst without any penalties.

The dwarf street sam in my game uses a gun with bigger stats than this and I allow it.
I don't see anything I wouldn't allow at the table. Maybe not EX-Explosives in slug form; it's supposed to be a shotgun after all. That's a call in terms of tone, though, rather than one of mechanics.

The extra clip mod would, indeed, give you a clip of 40. A drum mod should give you 100.
It is not possible to get a Gas-Vent 3. Shotguns normally can't have a gas vent, and the only reason the Auto Assault 16 can is because it's part of the integral design of the weapon.
That would be my call as a GM.

Streetline Special pistol - 100
Laser sight- 100
6 Capsule rounds- 18
6 doses of Narcoject- 300
Total Cost- 518 nuyen with a max availability of 8


Pistols skill 4 + Laser sight + Agility 4 = 10 Dice pool.

Pop pop

Not that it really matters, but the Drum Mod isn't technically available for shotguns.

I dont see why not
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c

It doesn't matter what you see. Technically, it's not. Yes, despite the fact that the AA16 comes with drums off the shelf. I didn't write the Drum Modification rules. Technically (again), the Extended Clip Mod doesn't work on the AA16 *either*, because it's only for 'clips'.

Personally, I think a 32-drum of *shotgun shells* is pretty big already, and 50-100 shotgun shells in a drum seems silly.

I think that gets into what your definition of "clip" is.
If the GM won't allow you greater ammo capacity(I would, but I like to see slots eaten up by non RC things), just get the Ammo Skip System if you want to walk around with ammo options. Besides, 32 rounds is probably plenty and reloading a smart weapon is easy as pie.
It also helps break up the monotony of combat. Keeps combat grounded and makes you think tactics.

Absolutely true.

well it might be a way for troll guns not to look tiny.

Look, I'm not telling you what to do, just pointing out the RAW. 'Clip' is a defined term in SR4, and weapons with clips have a [c] after the Ammo bit. This includes about 95% of pistols and automatics, but shotguns tend to be [m] or [b], and AA16 is [d].

Yeah, nobody here is really trying to step on any toes. This is just the sort of thing that's going to come up if you ask GMs to give things a by-the-RAW pat down. I don't think anyone here believes this gun would rock the boat anymore than a tweaked Alpha or even just a stock White Knight with a 50(!) round clip or the 100 round belt fed option would, so for me personally it would pass the sniff test even if it's not strictly RAW. It's really just a spirited attempt to gussy up a somewhat subpar weapons class, after all. Sadly, I think the biggest thing shotguns have going for them in SR4 is that they're roughly on par with most sport rifles in terms of damage code and are typically cheaper and have lower availability. They're not great weapons for a picky samurai but as a GM it's not uncommon for me to arm lower tier gangers with them or to have corpsec keep a couple in the weapons locker. A Remington 990 with a shock pad, imaging scope and a magazine full of standard ammo slugs will only set you back 560¥, after all, so you could do worse if you need to put holes in drones despite working with a tight budget.

I don't know, that seems like getting really anal about the texts use of the word clip and will also cause all kind of silliness, like the fact that you can get a SMG,AR or BR with multiple drums, as long as you first mod the gun for additional clip and then change the clips into drums, but if you first get the change to drum loading, then you can't anymore add an additional drum

That might be possible, and it might even be reasonable (after that much modification). Again, I didn't write these rules, so it's no skin off my nose.

Game rules have defined terms for a reason.




-k

I fixed that for you. SR is very bad in that department. They cannot even use consistent terminology to properly differentiate dice pool modifiers from attribute modifiers

Hmmm....ok. I appreciate everyones input. i know it isn't the greatest build, but I'm a big fan of flavor over munchkin-izing, but i still believe in being effective. My biggest concern was the twin drums, and if a GM would allow it, if it would be feasible (need a gun nut for that one), and if the Longarms skill would still be used for it.

Well there isn't really any functional difference between a dual drum and any other dual feeding method, so should be feasible as much as drum magazines in general are.
Also yes it would still use the longarms skill.

Technically the "Additional Clip" mod only works on weapons with a clip.

Yeah, I know in RL a clip is different than a drum. But I was curious about game mechanics, logistics, and if it was even possible. Even an on the spot judgement and call about using the additional drum as a clip (such as it costing an extra mod slot or something) would be acceptable, but either way, I got to finally play the character with that weapon recently and loved it. The DM was new, and didn't see anything wrong with the idea, but she is really new to DM'ing (but did an awesome job overall).

Seeing as "extended clip" and "extended drum" are two different mods* with two different mod-slot requirements, I would say that the game makes a rather large distinction between the two.

*Listed under the same mod in the description, but have different rules as to what the mod does, as well as a different cost, availability, concealment modifier, threshold for building, and required tools.

Well, there's the german "Arsenal"-only AK-127, an assault rifle that features two drums.
It also sends any idea of concealing that weapon over board. So a GM might hand-wave it into existence.

Yeah, AA-18 I designed isn't meant to be subtle. It is the "uh-oh" button for when things hit the fan. It is often carried in a massive duffel bag, and carrying it by hand is NEVER subtle.

So the gun fires a tiny 18-gauge shotshell, huh?







-k

Sigh... *Shakes head*

I'm not sure why that keeps getting mentioned. It's 16 in the book (and yes, it's a departure from the naming of the AA12… *shrug*).

hehehe....oops. I don't know why I was thinking 18. I wasn't anywhere near the books or the infamous Chummer program where the character and weapon are stored for me. Thanks for correcting me and making me feel like a dolt.

I was more making fun of the fact that the real life weapon all this is based on is the AA-12, and the reason there's a "12" on the end of the name is cos it's a 12-gauge shotgun - something the writer of the AA-16 seemingly didn't realize.

So, logically, an AA-16 would use 16-gauge shotshells, and an AA-18 would use 18-gauge.

Note that in shotgun terms, the larger the gauge number, the smaller the shell actually is. A 2-gauge "punt gun", for example, is freaking enormous.




-k

You mean a Panther Cozy?
Punt Guns, the original Assault Cannons!

Actually, they were designed for "Industrial Duct Hunting".

Duck.

Where?







-k

Scattered all over the water, after firing a punt 'gun'.

It very much is a gun.

Considering that Guns are what is towed around or what Navy Ships carry. Everything else is "Small Arms".

Words change. But I meant more that it's a kettle full of nails, as opposed to an actual firearm.

Actually, punt guns were 6, 8 and 10 gauge. They were decried as "unsportsman like" and haven't been used in a very long time for that reason. Just steer your boat towards a flock of ducks and... well, I can't imagine there was that much duck left.

I have this issue too. I'm 99% sure the writer was just clueless, but there is always the chance that the gun actually does fire smaller shells. Its the future, a lot of things can change and the popularity of different caliber ammunition is known to jump up and down quite a bit with time.

It does matter a lot when you get to the drum though, a 32 round 16 gauge drum might be reasonable, where as a 32 round 12 gauge drum would generally be extremely large. In either case there are ways to cram more ammo into the same sized drum, but the technical aspects of doing so are difficult and expensive enough that they tend to not get made.

Game wise the gun uses a drum or (d) for its ammo feeding. The extended clip mod and dual clip mod can't be used because it doesn't use a clip (c )and you can't use a bigger drum because it doesn't fall under the defined weapon categories. Same as the gas vents that would not normally be allowed, just be happy with what you get already for free.

Someone asked about the real life difference between clips and drum. Technically you should use the terms magazine and drum (or drum magazine, its still a magazine, just in drum shape), as clip is the incorrect term (a clip holds ammo ready to be inserted into a mag like a stripper clip or a revolver speed loader), but the term clip is used in Shadowrun to differentiate a weapon with a detachable magazine (c ) from one with an internal magazine (m). As far as the difference between loading a magazine and a drum, they generally fit into the same weapon with little or no modification, in fact the AA12, which the AA16 is obviously based off of, uses both stick mags and drums, both of which are perfectly interchangeable on the same weapon, the drums are just bigger. Another shotgun that does similar is the Saiga 12, which will use most magazines and drums unless you add a magwell for faster magazine swaps, at which point you usually have to use custom mags and generally can't use a drum. Heres mine with a 5 round mag, a couple of 8 round mags, and a 20 round drum (and yes it has both accessories and modifications).

Found another error, this one in the calculated recoil reduction. The accessory item 'sling' does not add any recoil compensation, that needs to be swapped out for the modification item 'sling'. The modification version does not take up any slots and is cheaper, but apparently requires some technical expertise to attach to the gun.

Aye, that's true. The fact that the sling mod and the sling accessory both don't offer the same thing is kinda silly. I guess the reasoning is that the accessory is just a weak little clip whereas the mod is secured onto it.

Logic is not important for naming things. The AA16 is 4 more than the AA12, just like 11 is one louder.

They got one thing right, the AA12 has an abysmally low rate of fire, it using half as much ammo as any other full auto weapon for a spray and pray action is an understatement. It also has low recoil, but not because of gas vents.

And a 4.0 quake is only a little weaker than a 5.0 quake. Right? Right?

26 Pounds... Has a Shell that is about the size of a Red Bull Can (1.2 Inches Diameter, and about 4-5 Inches long), and the actual bullet weighs in at 3500 Grains. You can buy one for about $26,000 Custom Designed.

Unfortunately, I cannot afford one.

Well, to put things in perspective, an AA-12 shooting once with buckshot is a little like an SMG shooting 8 times or so.

So even at a slow ROF, it's putting a lot of projectiles in the air.




-k

It's silly that gauge is even still used. We have millimeters!