Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Rigging...
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
WhiskeyJohnny
So I've seen the idea put out here and there, and I'd like to explore it - if I were to get a stirrup system in my char, would I be able to rig myself (and get, say, five IPs)? I think this could be a fun character concept, and mechanically it'd be an interesting option - if there are there adequate rules for it.

What would this look like to play? I've never played a rigger, so I'm not up on the particulars of how they run - is there a guide to playing a rigger somewhere?

Last, how would this interact with, say, a paraplegic or quadriplegic character? Would they be able to move under their own power?
Harboe
No.
No amount of rules abuse will let you use vehicle/drone modfication rules to make your physical body rigging-compatible.

Any sane GM would smack you over the head with SR4A (thicker and with more pages than SR4) and tell you to be sensible or get out.

---

Now, buying a drone and modding it to the max and rigging it, while playing a paraplegic? Sure. Search "+Wheelchair +rigger +drone" or something similar to get the first hundred threads dealing with such things.
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Harboe @ Jun 25 2011, 12:25 PM) *
No.
No amount of rules abuse will let you use vehicle/drone modfication rules to make your physical body rigging-compatible.

Any sane GM would smack you over the head with SR4A (thicker and with more pages than SR4) and tell you to be sensible or get out.

---

Now, buying a drone and modding it to the max and rigging it, while playing a paraplegic? Sure. Search "+Wheelchair +rigger +drone" or something similar to get the first hundred threads dealing with such things.


I'm talking about making myself a biodrone, using the stirrup system implant from Augmentation.

I'm well aware of both the search function and the Wheelchair Rigger Archetype, thanksyamuch.
Harboe
Wait, making yourself a biodrone, or making yourself into a biodrone.

Because, while I will admit to the possibility of the latter being RAW, it makes no sense that interfacing with your own body through a commlink/datajack and stirrup would make you faster than when your brain is communicating directly with your body.

Now, as weird as the concept sounds to me, I have to ask: Is there any other reason for you thinking this concept is interesting apart from 5IP?
Because I can't see how "I use my brain to control my body" is intriguing.
In fact, I'm quite convinced that every other character in your group will live up to that*?

* Barring AIs, Free Spirits or other creatures that cannot truly be said to possess either a body or brain.
WhiskeyJohnny
Making myself into a biodrone. And while, yes, it wouldn't make sense for that to be quicker, I'm just wondering if that's how it would work by the rules. And I guess it could be made to make sense if the transmission medium is superconducting, then it would transmit information much faster than nerves. But that's speculation on my part.

As to my interest in this concept - I'm intrigued by the five IPs, yes, but also in the thematic possibilities of someone who was para/quadriplegic without the stirrups, and the philosophical difference between using a chair and using the 'ware to achieve similar effects. And the possibility of the character being trans(meta)humanist and interested in becoming an infomorph, and this being a step closer to that goal. So it's not just "using my brain to control my body" but rather using my brain to control a body, which happens to be mine. And the possibility of having cloned bodies with different 'wares, sorta' different loadouts, if you will, is interesting, and brings some intriguing ethical issues into play, which could be fun to explore.
Tanegar
FYI, you can only get 4IP in the flesh. You could spend the 5th pass doing something in the Matrix, but you cannot, under any circumstances, act five times per turn in physical reality.
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jun 25 2011, 01:11 PM) *
FYI, you can only get 4IP in the flesh. You could spend the 5th pass doing something in the Matrix, but you cannot, under any circumstances, act five times per turn in physical reality.


So if I'm a rigger with five matrix IPs commanding a regular drone, I can only make it act four times?
Smokeskin
The stirrup interface comes with MWB, so why is there an issue with doing it?
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jun 25 2011, 02:01 PM) *
The stirrup interface comes with MWB, so why is there an issue with doing it?


I don't know, but I seem to recall there being issues with trying to make one's self a biodrone and then rigging one's own body.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jun 25 2011, 12:11 PM) *
FYI, you can only get 4IP in the flesh. You could spend the 5th pass doing something in the Matrix, but you cannot, under any circumstances, act five times per turn in physical reality.

All 5 can be used in meat. Rigging actions ARE matrix actions, as shown by the bonus from hotsim. It's been discussed. wink.gif
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=29138&hl
Lansdren
Technically you get five but remember that one of them will be used driving the body as it is a drone and thats the rules.
longbowrocks
Yeah, I prefer to just take the crash test if it comes to that though.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Jun 26 2011, 12:58 AM) *
Yeah, I prefer to just take the crash test if it comes to that though.


Yeah, not like a body is going to take a lot of damage from crashing anyways... So you fall. A bit embarrassing, but you are not going to kill yourself doing it. Of course, it helps if you have enough dice to reliably succeed at the crash test, so it becomes a non-issue.
Yerameyahu
Honestly, I'm not convinced (by the repeated arguments) that you can get 5 'meat' IPs through rigging (though I don't care enough to fight about it, hehe).

I'm also not convinced that biodrones and real drones are similar in every way… we once had an argument about whether biodrones can take freaking vehicle mods.

One issue of self-rigging is that there's no RAS in SR4 (the thing that turns off your brain-to-body connection). Instead, you're simply at a -6 to physical actions while in VR. So, you have to wonder if there are fun problems caused by having two simultaneous direct neural connections to your body. smile.gif
ggodo
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 26 2011, 09:15 AM) *
Honestly, I'm not convinced (by the repeated arguments) that you can get 5 'meat' IPs through rigging (though I don't care enough to fight about it, hehe).

I'm also not convinced that biodrones and real drones are similar in every way… we once had an argument about whether biodrones can take freaking vehicle mods.

One issue of self-rigging is that there's no RAS in SR4 (the thing that turns off your brain-to-body connection). Instead, you're simply at a -6 to physical actions while in VR. So, you have to wonder if there are fun problems caused by having two simultaneous direct neural connections to your body. smile.gif

This is my new reason for preventing Longbow from doing this.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (ggodo @ Jun 26 2011, 12:07 PM) *
This is my new reason for preventing Longbow from doing this.

The self rigging? If anything, I just wanted that as a joke. Why would I want to rig a suboptimal body? What I really need to do is convince my street sammy bud to put access to his cyber on his PAN. ork.gif
Ascalaphus
Eh. Formally, the Stirrup Interface only works on animals. So if the question is, "Can I do this in RAW?", the answer is No.

Setting that aside, you have an interesting issue: biofeedback. Every time your meat body takes damage, you get biofeedback, which can also again hurt your meat body. Even if that doesn't start a cycle, it still risks more damage than not-rigging you body.

I do like the general idea, being in a sort of detached, cerebral matrix space, only casually directing your body to go here and there, floating in cyberspace most of the time.. But the technology isn't ready for it yet.
longbowrocks
I agree about the feedback loop. Then again, I don't want to rig my body in combat. I don't even have hardened armor!
Draco18s
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Jun 26 2011, 05:10 PM) *
I agree about the feedback loop. Then again, I don't want to rig my body in combat. I don't even have hardened armor!


Wait. Why the hell would you want five initiative passes (a combat thing) outside of combat (where it doesn't matter)?
Yerameyahu
Parser error, please retry. smile.gif
'I don't want to rig my body *in combat*';
'I don't want to rig *my body* in combat'!
Udoshi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 26 2011, 10:15 AM) *
Honestly, I'm not convinced (by the repeated arguments) that you can get 5 'meat' IPs through rigging (though I don't care enough to fight about it, hehe).


You'll hardly ever get 5 meat IPS via rigging, though.

If you're rigging, you still need to burn a complex action to control your ride every turn.

Cyborgs are the only thing that gets to ignore that rule.
Summerstorm
And everyone confident enough to make the (very easy) crash test...
and everyone who just stand still (if the GM allows it, not RAW)
Draco18s
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 26 2011, 10:47 PM) *
Parser error, please retry. smile.gif
'I don't want to rig my body *in combat*';
'I don't want to rig *my body* in combat'!


If he's not rigging his own meat in combat, what's the point of having the stirrup interface at all?
Yerameyahu
He said he wants to rig the team's trollsam. smile.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 27 2011, 09:55 AM) *
He said he wants to rig the team's trollsam. smile.gif


Actually no. What he said was, he wants to hack his sam's gear and have what little good that does him. It's not like he can aim a gun that way.

(If you disagree with this statement and believe that a cybered character can be controlled like a drone without a stirrup interface then you are either dumb or haven't read any of the "hacking cyberware" threads).
longbowrocks
We tend to wing it quite a bit at our table, so I unthinkingly mentioned rigging through a single cyberware arm that technically isn't even a full fledged node.
Draco18s
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Jun 27 2011, 10:21 AM) *
We tend to wing it quite a bit at our table, so I unthinkingly mentioned rigging through a single cyberware arm that technically isn't even a full fledged node.


Yeah, no. That's not kosher.
KarmaInferno
Aside from control issues, you also have the problem at least in hot sim of basically taking double damage from attacks.

Once to the meat body, once from the feedback.



-k
Yerameyahu
Draco18s, if you can nitpick the difference between rigging the sam and controlling the sam, then you didn't need to ask about rigging his *own* body. wink.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 27 2011, 12:12 PM) *
Draco18s, if you can nitpick the difference between rigging the sam and controlling the sam, then you didn't need to ask about rigging his *own* body. wink.gif


At what point did I say that the two were different?
Yerameyahu
Jeez, forget it. smile.gif You first misunderstood the 'my body in combat' thing, and then you asked, "If he's not rigging his own meat in combat, what's the point of having the stirrup interface at all?" Clearly, you were confused about who was rigging what, when, and why. I'm glad it got straightened out.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 27 2011, 12:41 PM) *
Jeez, forget it. smile.gif You first misunderstood the 'my body in combat' thing, and then you asked, "If he's not rigging his own meat in combat, what's the point of having the stirrup interface at all?" Clearly, you were confused about who was rigging what, when, and why. I'm glad it got straightened out.


*Rereads*
Derp. I'll be up to normal cognitive legs. I mean levels. By Thursday or so. I didn't sleei[ much/well this last weekend (but had so much fun).
WhiskeyJohnny
So, if I were to get permission from my GM to have a stirrup system (an experimental model for metahumans) then what would be the optimal way to rig myself? Chrome? Technomancy? Path of the Adept? I may have a game soon, so it'd be cool to have a character ready, and this sounds like an interesting concept (at least to me). Also, what's the state of cloning tech in the sixth world? With sufficient nuyen would I be able to clone and equip several different iterations of 'me' in order to have different abilities/less risks for different runs?
Draco18s
Chrome. Any magic/not-magic-magic route you take will take a huge hit from the stirrup system (it's what, 2 essence?)
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 1 2011, 03:43 AM) *
Chrome. Any magic/not-magic-magic route you take will take a huge hit from the stirrup system (it's what, 2 essence?)


2.5 / 3.5 / 5.5 for ratings 1 / 2 / 3.

To be fair, it includes MBW...
Udoshi
To be fair, you only need move by wire 1 to rig something and use your matrix passes.

MWB is just a nice side benefit of that.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jul 1 2011, 02:56 AM) *
2.5


Right. 2.5 essence. Good luck going the magic route when you're gimped by 3.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 1 2011, 06:54 AM) *
Right. 2.5 essence. Good luck going the magic route when you're gimped by 3.


Why? We have a very exceptional mage in our group that started out with a 3 point Essence Penalty (Wired 2 and Reaction Enhancers 2, and a few other minor things). 300 Karma later, he is one of the strongest casters in the group, with a Magic of 6 and 5 Initiate Grades. It can be done, just not by those who want to be the most powerful character ever at the start of the game. *shrug*
Yerameyahu
God, Tymeaus, *every* time. smile.gif Most people aren't interested in waiting for five bloody Initiations to finally be their character. With 3 whole Magic, what exactly could this primo rigger do?
Ascalaphus
With the time and karma spent on recovering Magic to the point of a starting level caster (for PC values of "starting" of course) you could have become something so much more powerful than a precious and unique snowflake...



Personally, I'd go for Chrome rigger. I like the idea of a guy tinkering with drones who occasionally gets to show off his latest mad machines. The kind of guy who likes machines more than living people.

Sure, Technomancers can be good riggers too, but I just don't like them because their loss of Resonance for making themselves more machine-like feels wrong to me.



As for power.. I think all three methods can be powerful enough to be playable, but in the case of magic-based riggers it feels very forced, like you're twisting the game system to do something it doesn't really want to do, wasn't really meant to do (but just happens to allow). And Analyze Device is just cheesy.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 1 2011, 07:29 AM) *
God, Tymeaus, *every* time. smile.gif Most people aren't interested in waiting for five bloody Initiations to finally be their character. With 3 whole Magic, what exactly could this primo rigger do?


Not everyone has to be SuperWhammaDyne out of Chargen. Why do you have to wait for Five Bloody Initiations to be your character. Why can't you start out as your character (as he did) and then improve with time?

Hell, the Character I am playing now has a Casting Magic of 3. He is Way more fun to play than someone who has Magic 6. It is about the Role that you play, not the Dice that you Roll. smile.gif After all, When you are the Best in the World out of Character Generation, there is no where for you to go, no hill for you to climb.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jul 1 2011, 08:18 AM) *
With the time and karma spent on recovering Magic to the point of a starting level caster (for PC values of "starting" of course) you could have become something so much more powerful than a precious and unique snowflake...


That really is funny to me. You are assuming that the goal of the character is to be either very powerful, or a precious and unique snowflake. Why does everyone make that assumption?

QUOTE
Personally, I'd go for Chrome rigger. I like the idea of a guy tinkering with drones who occasionally gets to show off his latest mad machines. The kind of guy who likes machines more than living people.

Sure, Technomancers can be good riggers too, but I just don't like them because their loss of Resonance for making themselves more machine-like feels wrong to me.

As for power.. I think all three methods can be powerful enough to be playable, but in the case of magic-based riggers it feels very forced, like you're twisting the game system to do something it doesn't really want to do, wasn't really meant to do (but just happens to allow). And Analyze Device is just cheesy.


Yes, Analyze Device is Cheesy. Fortunately, it is easily controlled... I prefer either the Chrome Solution, or the Technomancer Solution. Both can be very solid builds.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 1 2011, 11:43 AM) *
Not everyone has to be SuperWhammaDyne out of Chargen. Why do you have to wait for Five Bloody Initiations to be your character. Why can't you start out as your character (as he did) and then improve with time?


I have yet to be in a game that lasts to 300 karma ohplease.gif
Ascalaphus
The best reason to want to be good (enough!) straight from CharGen: I want to be able to do fun stuff right away, instead of basically spending the first X sessions waiting for enough XP to make my character concept start paying off.

Don't mistake this for powergaming. I like to be powerful enough to have the feeling that I can make an impact, but I don't need to squeeze every drop for that.

The flip side of my emphasis on doing, now, is that I tend to buy lots of small powers during the game instead of saving up a long time for big abilities. I buy abilities related to what my character is working on right now. Call it immersion smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jul 1 2011, 09:12 AM) *
The best reason to want to be good (enough!) straight from CharGen: I want to be able to do fun stuff right away, instead of basically spending the first X sessions waiting for enough XP to make my character concept start paying off.

Don't mistake this for powergaming. I like to be powerful enough to have the feeling that I can make an impact, but I don't need to squeeze every drop for that.

The flip side of my emphasis on doing, now, is that I tend to buy lots of small powers during the game instead of saving up a long time for big abilities. I buy abilities related to what my character is working on right now. Call it immersion smile.gif


All viable options. I just do not see why having a Magic Rating of 3-4 is not Good (Enough). I have found that it is perfectly good. Is it as powerful as you can be? No, of course not. But it IS good enough. The character I play makes a huge impact on the game, just not in direct combat. For direct combat, I have options other than spells.

Looks like we mostly agree, though, so no worries. smile.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 1 2011, 12:22 PM) *
All viable options. I just do not see why having a Magic Rating of 3-4 is not Good (Enough).


Oh, sure, there are viable low-magic builds. Generally though they don't involve buying magic up to 6 and then dropping it back down to 3.
Oh, and low spellcasting magic isn't the same as low magic. The former involves the remainder having gone into adept powers, which are very much worth it. The latter means it went into cyberware, which was purchased with the extra expenditure of build points. 1 Essence is generally considered "ok," 2 is "workable, depending" and 3 is "too much."
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 1 2011, 09:28 AM) *
Oh, sure, there are viable low-magic builds. Generally though they don't involve buying magic up to 6 and then dropping it back down to 3.
Oh, and low spellcasting magic isn't the same as low magic. The former involves the remainder having gone into adept powers, which are very much worth it. The latter means it went into cyberware, which was purchased with the extra expenditure of build points. 1 Essence is generally considered "ok," 2 is "workable, depending" and 3 is "too much."


Depends upon your Concept I guess... Our Mage decided that sacrificing those 3 points of magic was okay for him. It worked out well.
Draco18s
Generally it depends. What'd he spend 3 Essence on?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 1 2011, 10:20 AM) *
Generally it depends. What'd he spend 3 Essence on?

Wired 2, Reaction Enhancers 2, Alpha Grade.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 1 2011, 01:33 PM) *
Wired 2, Reaction Enhancers 2, Alpha Grade.


Ehh. As a mage I'd have done those via spells, but they're not bad as chrome.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012