My first question has to do with edge. One of the possible uses of edge is to "re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit." I interpret this as rerolling ALL dice on a single test, provided that not a single die on that test scored a hit. That is the literal reading, and thus RAW, since the subject associated with "did not score a hit" is "a single test". I heard someone a while ago interpret this as "on a single test, reroll any dice that did not score a hit". Essentially an inversion of the Great Dragon power: twist fate.
This interpretation rings true to me, both because it is similar to the great dragon power, and because my interpretation would be ridiculous. Opinions?

My second question is as follows. I've heard it said around the boards that full auto bursts can affect hardened armor, or more specifically, vehicles. Is this true? The only rule I can find that even begins to resemble this is the vehicle damage rule on page 171: full bursts can attack both vehicles and passengers in one shot.

The Edge issue has been, I daresay, resolved. It means you reroll the non-hit dice. (The grammar is all equally valid, so you can't go by that.) Personally, I think this is a relatively powerful option that could be house-ruled to be different (usually better than all others), but there's no other adequate interpretation of the *existing* rule.

Full auto bursts can affect anything. Full auto extra damage simply *doesn't* apply to beating armor (to do Physical). It hurts vehicles more, but only *if* the base damage + net hits beats the modified armor, etc.

D'oh! Found it.

If memory serves, the example of play in Anatomy of a Shadowrun uses the "reroll all non-hits" interpretation of the Edge rules a number of times.

I need to read those then.
You mean the green text examples and not some strangely named book, right?

In the german version of the rulebook you can't interpret the edge rule the way you do. The german grammar doesn't leave a doubt that the single dice are meant with "did not score a hit" and not the whole test.
Theoretically that could be a translation error, but that is very unlikely in this case. Such an important error would have been found out after such a long time. The usefullness of egde stands and falls with this option.

Well, *one* usefulness of Edge. But regardless, the alternative interpretation is simply impossible. Tests in SR4 don't 'score hits', and the odds of a no-hit dice result that's also not a Glitch (which Edge is also used for, and you can only use Edge *once* per test) aren't great.

Actually, it's a strangely named book It's a 32-page pdf from the Runner's Toolkit, which gives parallel narrative and mechanical descriptions of a shadowrun from negotiations to execution.

a) vehicles do not have hardened armor, they simply can ignore stun damage. Physical damage is downgraded normally just as with people, but it evaporates on vehicles.
b)By RAW it is not just full bursts but all Full-Auto Attacks. So a short burst in BF mode only affect the vehicle or the passengers whereas a short burst in FA mode affects both

Ah. I forgot about that difference. So they both work the same for physical damage, but vehicles can ignore unlimited stun.

Kinda. While vehicles don't take Stun damage, they can be affected by electrical attacks that deal Stun damage. So, you can mess up a vehicle with Stick-n-Shock.

Ah, those damn Stick-n-shock. What aren't they good for?

Good luck disabling something with 2+ digits of body and armor tho. SNS may shut down a drone for a couple of rounds (especially nasty for a flying drone), but with anything bigger your better off going with something permanent.

Yeah, it's not something you rely on, but there's a chance. Luckily, they have to equal your *net hits* on the attack… an excellent shot could very well up the odds.

So wait, narrow bursts help beating hardened armor now?

No.

Bursts never aid in overcoming armor.

Wide bursts can, indirectly. Reducing or eliminating target dodge pool potentially increases weapon damage, which means the target has to get more hits on the soak test to avoid the additional damage.



-k

At that point one can start to wonder if the attack roll should be allowed to aid damage in a wide burst, as one is basically throwing bullets everywhere in the hopes that at least one of them hits.

Yeah, it's one of those funky math artifacts.

I think wide bursts are still concentrated on a single target. What you're describing is more like suppressive fire, where hits do not increase damage.

Sure, but you're still *hoping* you hit the single target. People have always pointed out that you can do things like Wide Called Shots, and that a Wide Burst is better at defeating hardened/vehicle armor. It does seem odd. I wonder how much hobgoblin's house rule would alter the game balance, and I use an alternate house rule for bursts that combines Wide and Narrow.

IMO, hardened armor is the offender here, not the bursts.

*shrug* Bullets (and, I dunno, knives) really *should* go 'ping' against certain levels of vehicle and Barrier armor. It's realistic and it's cinematic. Spirits doing the same thing is basically half their schtick, I guess, though you could certainly change it without making them useless.

the thing is, spending edge to reroll the non-hits is invariably BETTER than using edge to add your edge dice. It's even marginally better than adding your edge before rolling.

Really, using edge to reroll the dice that didn't score hits, is so superior to all the other uses of Edge, that it makes you wonder why bother listing the other options.

Adding to the roll beforehand has the advantage that no matter the penalties, you always keep the edge dice. In other words, you can default on anything with 8 dice, no matter the odds.

Also, adding edge up front lets you reroll 6's for all dice in your pool, for extra successes.

The math happens to be that if Edge < 1/2 Dice Pool, then it's better to reroll. Otherwise add edge.

(If I have 3 logic and 1 hardware, and I go to hack a door, I've got 4 dice to its 6. So I spend edge before hand and get 10 dice (I love edge, so I have 6)¹. On the other hand I could roll first, get one hit (to its two) and spend edge to reroll 3 dice, giving me a grand total of 7).

¹Actually, I end up with about 12, due to exploding 6s.

In my experience, rule of six is not nearly as good as default on anything. I really love that.

Even so, it's 10 dice (Edge first) to 7 (Edge for reroll).

Wait, what? Edge ignores DP penalties? Ugh.

Yep. You always get your Edge dice.

Unless your DP before Edge is reduced to 0 or less. Then you can still use your Edge dice but it is a long shot (i.e. no exploding sixes)

Had someone try that once, to etiquette themselves away from a guard (In order to act like he wasn't watching the building after a guard thought he might've been). Still ended poorly, seeing as the PC tripped over the curb, fell into the guard, and got his face plastered on a nice facial recognition database.

If you are working with a small dice pool, it can be better to add edge dice, assuming your have a reasonable edge stat.

For instance, let's say you have 1 in Pilot GroundCraft, and AGI 3, and Edge 5. You would be better off rolling 5 Edge dice with your original roll, than re-rolling 3-4 dice. And that doesn't even take into account re-rolling 6s which you can do when you add the Edge in. Also, it give the possibility for more successes. If you were dealing with the dice pool of 4 mentioned above, you could not possibly get 5 successes if that's what was needed to pass the test, but if you add the edge dice in, you then have a possibility to get 5-9 successes. Though it's still unlikely, you at least have the possibility.

We've worked out the math before, and yes, there are some circumstances where +Edge is better (depending on Edge and dice pool). However, this is rarely the case, especially for 'runner-grade' dice pools.

I'm not allowed to go into detail, but the problem here is when you load up on penalties for greater effect. You then get basically the same chance to pull off the insane stunt as you would a more conservative move.

Yeah, screw that. GM discretion.

I don't know about that. Personally? I like it when players go for the insane, over-the-top stuff. My current game is set up that way: when we made characters, I made sure that everyone knew we were going for over-the-top action. I bent and relaxed certain rules so they could have more powerful characters. And for me, it's a more fun way to play. I like to play in hard-core, action movie games when I get the chance, and I like running them too. YMMV, of course, but I try to not penalize my players for trying cool things. In this game, I actively encourage the gonzo crazy moves.

Not so.

Suppose I have Mr Lucky. Mr Lucky has edge 6, and has reactions 3.

He is shot at by a pistol, and rolls 6, 6, 6 (I did say he was called Mr Lucky). He in trouble so decides to spend a point of edge

He could reroll all failed die...no I don't think so
He could add edge: Now we gets 6 more die and can reroll 6's

The point of the example is to demonstrate that if you are good at something rerolling failed hits is the best, but if you have a small die pull then adding edge can easily be better.

The three 6's he already roll can't be rerolled, however.
Price you pay for adding edge after.

*shrug* We've already addressed that: rerolling misses isn't 'invariably' better, but it *is* overwhelmingly often.

Most people don't play Mr Lucky.
They play MR 3-4 edge.
Who is also an incredibly good hacker with a DP of 16. Or a GunSlinger with a DP of 18.

With guys like that, you have 2 situations.
1) I'm rolling for 6-7 hits. On average I get them, and that's not worth spending an extra edge on before I roll.
2) I'm rolling for 10+ hits, and I really need the exploding 6's.. so I already spent my edge.

In situation 1, if I roll badly, then I'm MUCH better off rerolling the 14 dice that didn't get hits, than I am rolling 3-4 extra dice.
In situation 2, I already spent the edge, because I was pushing the outside of my dicepool anyways.

In situation 1, rerolling misses, is /always/ better than all the other options.

If you're throwing 16-18 dice, you don't "really need exploding 6s." As it is worth about 3-4 more dice (after adding your edge pool). If you "really need" that many hits, you should roll, then spend to reroll. You'll get average 12 hits (if you get less, exploding 6s wouldn't have helped, if you get more, you didn't need exploding 6s).

Take your dice pool + Edge. Divide that by 9. That is the average number of extra hits from exploding dice. Add to this figure 1/3rd of your Edge.

- So for a pool of 15 plus 3 Edge, that's an average of 3 extra hits by spending Edge before the roll.

Contrast that with spending Edge after the roll. You will get on average 1/3 of your failed dice in extra hits.

- Same pool 15 will average 5 hits. Remaining dice will average 3-4 hits on a re-roll.


Generally, if your Edge is equal to or greater than 1/3rd the Dice Pool, spend edge before the roll, otherwise spend edge after. Large base dice pools skew this in favor of spending dice after.

It's Edge > 1/2 DP. It was covered in another thread recently.

Edit: here:

You are right about that situation, but what if the feces has impacted upon the cooling apparatus, and the Hacker with a DP of 16 to hack something needs to do First Aid, or Con, or something else where his DP is low? He may very well be better off Adding his 3-4 Edge dice to his defaulted Dice Pool of 2.

sure, but then he's rolling the edge to begin with.

My point is, there are only very minor edge cases where you would spend edge to add edge to your roll after the fact.
in 99% of the cases, that's the completely inferior choice. Unless you're a Human with Lucky, and maxed out Edge of 8. Then, adding 8 dice with exploding 6's.. looks better than rerolling 10 dice, maybe.

The only reason to spend Edge after in order to add Edge dice is if your Edge pool is greater than the number of dice you could reroll.

It's a very inferior option, but it's still available (if it wasn't you'd be stuck with adding edge first, or rerolling non-hits, and the possibility could arise where you didn't do the former and don't want the latter)

There are several points to consider:
If you reroll, you do not get edge dices. (As far as I know)
This means your possible hits are limited by skill*2. (This can be a pain in the ass. It is even of greater importance for spells, which are limited at FORCE hits)
If your dices love you, this should also factor in to use edge up front.

Draco18s already gave the formula to do get the better option.

So yes, if you have an edge 2 character you do not want to add the dices, unless you have a huge dicepool and a very low skill raiting!

But as soon as you hit the edge 6 it gets tasty.
One thing is the reaction test to dodge a bullet.
Every test only consisting on a pool of only one attribute actually. Also test consisting of two attributes, since they are mostly 5 or lower (Body, charisma, willpower, intuition are not easy to augment)
High edge is not to make your character a god in the things he is already good at. (Thats what rerolling is for)
It makes your character live, where he should have died. (I swim like a rock->edge)
Thats why a lot of people dislike MR Luck. (mundane human with edge
This guy is the definition of the jack of all trades. (And with a good reaction attribute, he may walk through suppressiv fire.)