It has come up before on this forum that "organlegging" is kind of stupid, given that it's usually cheaper to just buy a new part cloned from your own DNA, and using your own clone also eliminates all sorts of health risks. However, the idea of human chop-shops is phenomenally dystopian, so I want to keep it in some form.

Here's what I came up with:

Talisma are made of people! Specifically, Awakened metas and critters. Well, not all of them are, but enough that it's an intensely profitable grey market for some operators, and those operators make it dangerous for mages to go around slinging magic casually. I rather like the side-effect that mages become a paranoid bunch who tend to avoid publicity.

Anyone see any problems with this?

Thanks, -- N

That's actually not far from setting a written. There are some telesma that come from the earth and plants, but meta-critters are probably the more reliable source already. As for organlegging, it profits in part from people who are too poor to afford vat-grown replacements (modern day, I'd fall into the equivalent due to low wages versus cost of living), another part from people requiring SPECIFIC matches for nefarious or genetic reasons (biosystem intolerance of some sort requiring cheap deltaware), and in part from ghouls that require such limbs for sustenance.

As usual, can someone point me to the fluff/cruch that says this?

My gut feeling is that cloning probably isn't quick and requires you to have access to such a facility, where organlegging is potentially fast, can be done by people willing to ignore things like laws and ethics, and may be necessary to keep you going until the cloned part is ready.

I don't see anything about costs with respect to organlegging, but the primary concern seems to be time. SR4A, p. 54, talks about organlegging, as does Augmentation, pp. 16-17. Compare with the cost and (especially) time to grow replacement organs, Augmentation, pp. 126-7. You're looking at 2-4 weeks for most body parts, or 8 weeks for a full-body clone.

First, it's telesma, not talisma.
Second, yeah, awakened critters can be used for it, so no reason for awakened metahumans not to. It'd not be widespread, though, minding that there's not that many awakened to begin with. So I think it's better to just handwave it without going into the profitability details too much with your players.

Eh, there are PLENTY of reasons for organ legging. And i already thought that having "awesome" organs is a good reason to murder someone and sell his orgens to dark mages or shadow spirits or something.

For example "Heart of a fearless slayer of monsters" could be a great telesma... where do you get it? By killing that ghoul-hunter Adept in your neigborhood.
Or "Brain of a Psionic", "Legbones of the fastest kid in the city".. a "newborn babies smile"... whoa... this is DARK.

But seriously cloned stuff is: EXPENSIVE (sure not by runner standards). But if you can scrape together 2500 bucks with all your friends to try and save the life of your little daughter, who is SINLESS and has no insurance. Do you really care when some shady doctor says: yeah, i do it for 2500 now and 2500 in three months?

Also sometimes you need to have the cloned stuff NOW, but it takes months to grow. Only those with a good insurance/docwagon contract have a cloned wimp on standby. Organlegging is very legitimate for the poor and desperate. Since medicine is so advanced that people can transplant stuff in a backroom of a bar with minimal education/equipment costs can stay low.

Although, with magic involved, I think we found another shady deal for Aztechnology to be involved with...

Eh... with aztechnology i always more think about abductions. It is important people are still alive if you need to squeeze the life out of them. Ritualistic symbols are not enough.

I wonder: Does aztechnology have some meat-grinder like machine, where you throw in dozens of people per minute and the machine perfectly rips out their hearts... just takes a bit of time so they can build up sufficient fear? And all of the blood fuels a giant spawning pool for bloodspirits or something? With punchcard executioners and bloodmages emotionless doing their work?

No, that's at the other end of the sacrificial alter for the Soy-Sloppies.

Soyalent green is MY kind of people!

"So, how does it taste?" "Meh, it varies from person to person."

Blood Magic and Toxic Magic Talesma is likely to work with human remains. Non-Toxic magic, OTOH, is less likely to please the Spirits...

One idea that springs to mind is a dodgy medical clinic in the slums which, unbeknownst to the customers, uses cheap second-hand organs and cyber-/bioware as a way to keep overheads down and thereby increase profit margins.

AFAIK organlegging is illegal even in Shadowrun. While you may reduce the prodction cost, you would probably have a much higher overhead of bribes, security etc.

Rule Zero: don't get caught.

Only if the rewards are worth the risk you would try to create such a large criminal enterprise. I don't see enough profit in organlegging.

Not all rewards are financial. For example, the Lambeth Containment Zone (Sixth World Almanac, pg 167) is unlikely to have cloning, bioware, or cyberware. What they do have, in large numbers, is an entire population and way of life they distrust and are actively at war with sitting just outside their borders and occasionally invading them.

In such an area, organlegging could easily become a way of life.

Any area where cloning is hard to obtain and body parts aren't is a perfectly good environment for organlegging to flourish, either for profit or for group survival.

I wouldn't try it either, but even in the real world there's no shortage of people willing to engage in ill-advised high-risk, low-reward criminal activity. Maybe a dodgy streetdoc gets into illicitly dealing second-hand organs because he's desperate enough to try it 'just this once' to make rent, maybe he's just underestimated the risks (or the expense necessary to minimise those risks) or overestimated the profits, maybe he's been forced into retail by a scary organlegging gang, maybe he's further padding the profits by collecting the parts himself from unsuspecting clients, maybe he just gets a sick thrill from the knowledge that he's secretly violating people in a fairly profound way.

Yes, this is a good point. There are certainly places where the assumptions in the core rules don't apply -- availability of clone parts, for example. If there are no clone parts around, yet there are lots of surgical theaters, and piles of unscrupulous yet trustworthy doctors, then organ-legging may make perfect sense.

However, I'm operating a game within the core rules and their assumptions -- like the availability of clone parts -- do apply. So I'm looking for feedback within that context.

Within that context, I don't think organ-legging makes much sense.

My major change is to add "awakened meta-humans" to the list of things you can turn into telesma.

Thanks, -- N

If the streetdoc is doing it "just this once" -- which seems very plausible -- there's no industry. It's a one-off.

If a street-doc has underestimated risk, he will get caught by those risks. Again, there's no industry, because those who try it fall prey to the risks they underestimated.

If he's forced into it by a gang, there's still a need for customers. The gang may cater to the rich (just like they import drugs for rich kids, and import sex-workers for well-off customers), but then it's in competition with clone parts, which are significantly safer. Or the gang can try to cater to the poor, who can't pay for expensive services... yeah.

If he's getting off on doing horrible things to innocent people, I don't see why he's going to limit his thrills to benefit some people at the expense of others -- unless the ones he's benefiting are rich & powerful, in which case see above.

You need special circumstances to justify organ-legging. You need pathologically specific circumstances to justify an organ-legging industry.

Cheers, -- N

My point exactly

Yep yep. But I still want there to be some dark dealings with illegal wetware chop-shops, so I'm looking for an excuse to justify them. The excuse I came up with is telesma, which are expensive enough to justify shady dealings.

Yep, I get your point, but I wasn't so concerned with trying to justify an organlegging industry as how to justify the practice of organlegging within a story. If cloned parts really are cheaper for the consumer than second-hand parts (and I'm not sure about that, given the fluff in Augmentation), a widespread organlegging industry would be difficult to sustain, however the continued existence of the practice isn't difficult to justify in-game.

If you really want to retain the idea of the human chop-shop in a world where cloned organs are the cheaper option, maybe organleggers could be primarily concerned with the illicit procurement and sale of cyberware and bioware. Or maybe it's a primarily one-way industry, with Tamanous voraciously buying up parts to ship to Asamando.

(I don't mean to criticise your telesma idea at all, I'm just suggesting other options).

The problem with the Tamanous business model:
* You can only sell to those so poor that they can't get a mob loan for a cloned organ.
* You have serious expenses (bribes, smuggling, harvesting).
* The merchandise is almost always poor quality, or expensive to acquire (because healthy people tend to be the people who enjoy actual legal protection.)
* All manner of people get offended by what you do; even hardened criminals often think you're squicky.

I think the profit margins on that are really really low.

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Niche environments: if it's hard to smuggle in cloned organs, it'll also be hard to smuggle in stolen organs. And if you start organlegging in a containment zone, pretty soon everyone is going to notice what's happening. At that point other groups will probably try to move against you, unless you take complete control of the area; but that's a whole different kind of criminal racket (and probably far more profitable than organlegging!)

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Now, I agree that organlegging fits the style of a dystopian world, but it just doesn't make sense under the current biotech rules; it's just become obsolete because of cloned organs.

I think that if you really jack up the costs and limit the availability of biotech, you make organlegging plausible again, and at the same time make cyberware more of a standard choice. That might actually work out well.

Until the cloned part is available (2-4 weeks?) what does the patient use in place of the damaged part?
For non-awakened, I can imagine some sort of cyberware as a temporary replacement, assuming of course that you have a SIN and the funding to get the cloned part, rent the cyberware, and have the various operations performed.

For the already insanely cybered (shadowrunners with almost no essence left) or for the awakened (who don't want the loss of power that comes with loss of essence), organlegging may be their best option and such people may be best equipped to pay what it takes to skirt the law.

For thsoe with fake SINs, do you really trust your fake sin to survive 2-4 weeks of hospital visits, insurance checks, etc. And OMG, your DNA is on file under that fake SIN forever.

So while I don't have a problem with your solution, I don't see the actual problem.

A suitable Type O organ is actually easier to get than a matching stolen organ. It's only growing cultured organs that takes time to do, so unless you need a Vampire Kidney or something ridiculous, off-the-shelf biotech is way more desirable than Tamanous having your genetic needs on file.

Exactly organlegging makes sense not only as a stop gap option. Not only would your DNA be on file, there is nothing preventing the biotech firm from using your DNA against you in a variety of ways, particularly if you piss them off. If they find out about your "special skills" and "questionable ethics" don't be surprised by becoming their permanent bitch. I can see a real shadow clinic priding itself on having no records of your visit, and a thorough 100% visible chain of custody ending in disposal of all samples not used in the cultivation of specific body part.

Where do the SINless go to get replacement body parts, yeah down to Billy the Butcher the local Mafia front. Waste not, want not. Instead of putting inconvenient bodies through the meatgrinder, you cut out the good bits first and stick them on ice, help recoup the cost of the bullet. Insurance, what is that. the bottom of the barrel can't afford insurance.

Growing a cloned body part costs money, collecting organs from someone you just turned into a corpse is free. For the organlegger it is almost 100% pure profit, and no one gives a crap about the people being harvested.

Don't get cultured organs. There's no need; just get Type O. Nobody needs to know about yuor DNA, just tell them you want a left kidney; they'll just plug it in tomorrow during lunch.

Except that a SINless person can likely get 2nd Hand Organs for far less than the Type O organ you are discussing. Why pay 6,000 for an Organ when you can get it from a 'Legger for half that, or even less?

Lets see...
Item Stolen, Item Used, Price War and Market Flooded result in 60% markdown, FROM BASELINE (you could have other modifiers, but lets just stick with this)... so, if the Tamanous Agent pays 500 per Body, harvests even 5 useable organs, or other systems, and sells them for 40% of a Baseline Type O match, they have made Bank, and then some. Assume they are all Organs, at a Markdown from 6,000 Nuyen to 2400 Each. 5 Organs gets them 12000 Nuyen, and they only paid 500 Nuyen for it. 2300% Profit Seems like it would make for a Booming Business to me. Limbs/Hands/Feet give an even better return on the initial investment.

You might ask where I pulled the Cost of the Body from. In our campaign, Tamanous will make an arrangement for 500 Nuyen a Body, if you deliver it. I know that this will likely be campaign Specific. But it is a good place to start comparing prices.

But a type-O kidney still costs over a month's salary, working 40 hour days (per the Day Job quality).

My position at the moment, unless someone can point out something to the contrary, is that second-hand organs must be cheaper than cloned organs. As has been pointed out, the organlegging industry is difficult to explain if cloned organs are cheaper and safer than second-hand organs, and fluff suggests both that the organlegging industry is on the rise and that organlegger's products are 'low cost'.

Very good points on the street costs adjustments, Tymeaus. I'd forgotten all about them!

2nd hand would be cheaper by strictest definition, even if only by 20%.
Using the Classification of 'Ware would also work as well. A Straight 50% decrease is nice. I prefer the variability that occurs when you use Street Costs Adjustments, because you can have some interesting things occur due to "Gang War, Crackdowns, Legislation" or other occurrence on the street. But a Straight 50% is nice too. At least it sets a reliable method to use to calculate costs.

I'd forgotten all about Street Costs Adjustments. I think that's a really cool way to do it. Thanks Tymeaus

+1. That's pretty cool.

Just don't get stuck with two right arms, one of which is from an African descendant while you're Caucasian.

Hilarious, but it brings up the idea of cosmetic alteration, which can deal with the skin tone pretty cheaply. Try to keep it under-the-radar while you're trying to finance a clone piece and wait for it to grow.

A second right arm, is a bit trickier, though.

Some times, you take what you can get...

My Pleasure...

Sorry, forgot that would be considered somewhat obscure in this day and age.

Harry Harrison's "Bill The Galactic Hero" is infamous for his Two-Handed Salute due to having two right hands, and gave us such wonderful moral statements such as "It's always Bowb-your-buddy week". With its humour, depictions of a corrupt government, massive slums, a never-ending war to keep emergency war measures in action, and a lot of other fun things, it's actually a pretty good view of a dystopian empire from the point of view of a soldier who happened to have been dropped on the head as a child. Repeatedly.

Heh... Interesting...

It's a nice precursor to "The Stainless Steel Rat", who as we all know, is the patron saint of Shadowrunners.

You are assuming that every body you haul in is made entirely of type-O parts, and that's a bad assumption. You might find a few out there, but sorting them from the useless organs most people are packed with isn't trivial.

See, unlike 'ware, there's no real reason to upgrade, so there's no reason to sell your type-O kidney back to the shop voluntarily. That eliminates the usual source for stuff which is priced second-hand. Involuntary involves sorting through a haystack of guts to find a few needles of type-O... and remember, you need to pay for the bio-lab which runs all these tests, either by owning it yourself, or renting time from someone else. I don't see any way that a low-margin business could afford such an expensive service. (Also you need to screen them for diseases, etc.)

It's a good idea to try to apply standard game mechanics, but in this case it won't work if people think about the implications at all.

Thanks, -- N

That's why they take more bodies in than they have clients needing new parts installed - besides the need to feed the ghouls, that is. You've got to have an assortment, for compatibility. Don't get too hung up on Type O. That's compatible with everybody, yes - but pretty much every body is going to be compatible with SOMEBODY.

I'm assuming medical advances in dealing with rejection-related issues, of course, but I don't think that's unreasonable, given that you can pick out a piece of metal or bundle of tissue at the mall and have it installed in your body.

It takes a 30BP PQ to be a Type O donor; most people aren't. Their organs will only work well for people with sufficiently matching bodies, and even then require immunosuppressant drugs (a perpetual expense!) In fact, people that will easily be missed are also likely to be unhealthy and not a good donor for anyone.

The only way organ-legging is really going to be plausible if the 'leggers buy extremely cheaply, and sell quite a lot cheaper than cloned organs.

But I think running an organlegging business has significant overhead; it's one of the most loathsome professions, so you need to pay hefty bribes to be left to your devices, or use a lot of legbreaking to keep people off your back. But that can easily cause a collision with more mainstream syndicates as well - again expensive.

I think the only way to make organlegging plausible, is to increase the prices of clone-grown organs above RAW.

Or just operate in areas where nobody cares at all. Hell, some might see you as a hero! You get rid of the malcontents and dangerous people, and provide life to the good and wonderful poor people of the community.

Still wouldn't take much to get folks riled up and the urban equivalent of pitchforks and torches, however...

Nobody likes an Igor in the neighborhood. So unsightly. But then there was that accident, and young Bill lost his leg...

Actually, a good way of working Organleggers in as a legitimate (If still squicktastic) thing is to read Discworld novels and think of them like the Igors from that.

Even the highly non-racist Sir Samuel Vimes (He hates everyone equally, including himself. ESPECIALLY himself!) liked having one on staff. Medic and forensic expert in one (misshapen) form!

They aren't liked, but yes, when Young Bill loses his leg...

I know igors are good with needles and thread and sometimes inherit organs/limbs from their relatives, but I can't remember anything about organlegging. In a more advanced society they probably would be good at cloning as well.

Yeah, but that requires storage and record-keeping on a massive scale, so you can match "donors" with patients. That kind of record-keeping means leaving a HUGE data-trail which anyone who dislikes you (i.e. everyone) could use to destroy your storage, and therefore your profits, if not also destroy you personally.

People prefer to get paid in goods that are easily concealed, untraceable, imperishable and valuable-to-everyone for good reason.

Organ-legging as-written is dealing with goods that are bulky, traceable, perishable and valuable-to-almost-nobody.

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Actually, here's an interesting organ-legging reversal: imagine a crew that steals organs and replaces them with type-O so they have ritual links to screw you over later in life.

Cheers, -- N

Here's some ideas I came up with when brainstorming for a campaign:
- If somebody needs an organ grown, he invites tenders on a (legal & legitimate) "biotech classifieds" network. Organleggers are active on these sites and can of course undercut the competition in price and delivery times, if they have a matching organ on offer.
- A street doc checks whether he can get a matching harvested organ before ordering a cloned one for his client. Of course the client is billed for a new one.
- Somebody in the biotech facility to which the actual cloning got sub-subcontracted is the malefactor. If an order comes in for something he has in the freezer, he'll fake the paperwork to make it look as if the organ got cloned, and then ship the harvested one.

Assume the illicit supplier can pull his trick on 5% of all offers, then all three scenarios offer a nice cash stream in the long run.

Additionally, human organs could be made more expensive for a number of reasons:
- The old "natural salt is better than NaCl" story. People believe that "natural" organs are better and organlegging is just banned to protect the biotech monopolies of the AAAs, and believers are always willing to pay a markup. One could even con these people by selling them normal cultured stuff.
- An organ from a fitting donor counts as cultured. Which actually makes a lot of sense, because there are few people with Type O organs.

No, I actually was not assuming that. The cheapes Cost ofr Parts is Type O. Which is what I was basing my cost analysis upon, not that fact that everyone would have Type O parts. Organs can be implanted in anyone, with the right Immuno Suppressants. And an Organ can be FOUND for anyone, with enough looking. So, If you want to base the Cost on a "Clonal PArt," The Organleggers make even more money. They will sell their parts to those who can use them.

Clonal Parts need no Immuno Suppressants...
Type O Parts Need no Immuno SUppressants
All other PArts likely require some level of Immuno Suppressants, dependant upon how close a match is provided. In a Black Clinic, you take your chances, but at least it is likely cheaper than a Type O or Clonal Replacemewnt part.

A Black Clinic or Street Doc with at least a Shop can perform any of the required tests for Organ/Limb replacement. It does not cost all that much, actually.

As for Usual Source for Second Hand. Any body can be a source for Second Hand Ware. No one says that they have to survive the procedure. I think you are making some assumptions about the world that are not actually true. I think that you are concentrating on LEGAL Organ and Limb transplants, which Organlegging takes absolutely no part in. Again, you get what you get, and hope that it works.

The problem is that whether the organ is cloned or not can be verified by a DNA test, and the fraud will be revealed.

With good PR you can convince the public of all sorts of crazy stuff. This type of brainwashing will be expensive as well though. Even if a lot of people hate the Megacorps and their power, few will think that a possibly criminally obtained organ will be better than what is essentially your own organ.
What benefit is there from cultured organs besides not being Type O?