I just want to parachute into this thread and rant about min/maxing attributes:

That's why our group plays with Karmagen. It has its own flaws, though, and certain character archetypes get really shafted in comparison to BP.

As soon as someone got ahold of milspec armor, our group started seeing ALOT more grenades. They are awesome for killing armored characters... if they get a direct hit they halve armor, besides usually having some AP anyway.

We allow anyone in the blast radius to roll dodge to reduce damage. If the target of the grenade can get out of the way, so can people nearby. If they do a full dodge, every success = 1m extra distance from the blast area.

to the people who corrected me, my thanks and apologies. 3 is the standard. However, that doesn't change my point on basic dice pool versus maximized dice pools.

Perhaps it's the GMs I've dealt with that color my opinion on that matter, but at times, 8 charisma and 4 in influence isn't enough for that face to be a face. It takes every advantage you can pull out to maximize your dice pool, so that a GM can't simply ignore your ability to do what you do.

That does, indeed, sound like a Table Issue, rather than a Rules issue.

I've faced with 20, I've faced with 12. It doesn't really matter. The problem isn't necessarily the GM. The problem may be communication and sometimes player expectations.

Do you want to be Face from the old A-Team or Sophie from Leverage? If that's so, no dice pool is ever going to be enough, because they are faces by fiat, not by skill. Even their worst ideas work perfectly. (The con in the tent on the mountain in a recent episode of Leverage just stands out in this one.)

And there are times the GM should ignore your ability. As a face for example, the client's choice may well be to pay the team what he offered or to go elsewhere. No amount of negotiation will make him have more money in his pockets. Sometimes people really are out of resources. And you can't convince the security guard you're the janitor if they know the facility only uses drones for janitor services.

And sometimes the dice just hate you. Burning an edge up front, rolling 20D6, watching the 6's explode, and.... 2 hits. Yep, that was my shining moment this weekend.

There's an old classic example from SR3 where a mage cast a fireball to "save everyone's bacon," gathered up some 26 dice, and didn't roll anywhere near the threshold, critically botching the spell and blowing himself up.

I know there's times when GM fiat is called for, like if the mark isn't interested in what you're offering in more ways than one. However, when you and the opponent have a common subject to negotiate over, and you're at 12 dice as a face, and there's absolutely no way you can succeed because the NPC is absolutely perfect at everything and knows everything forever, it's not playing the game, it's waiting for the GM's ego to subside before you're allowed to be who you spent build points and karma to be. The difference here being, when the GM says the NPC is better than you, and you pull out 24 dice and say, "Really?" it forces the GM to heartily reconsider his notions. Or admit that he just put you up against the 47th Great Dragon or overly powerful free spirit so far in the game.

As a GM, I do make some powerful and dangerous (not usually both at the same time) NPCs in a game, but while some are specialists, none are perfect. I'm also absolutely certain not to fall in love with how perfect they are, or to worry if they get killed by the group. I faced such overpowered GMing as a player, and I never liked it, so I took that as the lesson to learn for when I GM. It's easy for a combat-specialist to kill a bunch of people, because there's plenty of pre-statted and well known cannon fodder for it, and the GM doesn't feel bad about having cannon fodder wasted in endless waves to make a player feel powerful. However, a GM who's too in love with his high-powered fixer or Mr. Johnson will balk at the idea that a player could even match him, after all the work such a person went through to build their empire or earn favors, or whatever. The cannon fodder isn't a symbol of the GM and don't gain his affection or protection; the big powerful NPC on the other hand...

It falls down to game design theory and literary tropes in the end. It's not always about winning, but if the face character can never be as awesome as those street sams, riggers, and adepts mowing down the competition, then why would anybody want to play it?

Fixed.

If it's banned for the GM, it's banned for the player. If the player is allowed to have it, the GM gets it too. Some things the GM gets that player's don't, such as dragons. If the GM has personal issues, that has nothing to do with chargen and doesn't need to be brought up in a chargen thread because there's nothing that can be done in chargen that actually fixes those issues.

Again, Character Efficiency AND Roleplaying are on two different scales. It's possible to be both. Its possible to be higher in one than the other. It's even possible to be deliberately low on one or the other. (My favorite Champions character was, quite frankly. useless. I never really thought about it this way before, but when it comes down to it, I was playing a sidekick.)

In Burn Notice, Sam Axe is simply not in Fiona's league, never mind Michael Weston's. He's fun anyway. None of the hobbits were rocking the power stats in any Tolkien book. Ron Weasley is rocking the bottom of the Hogwart's threat list. Characters do not have to be powerful to be fun and characters do not have to be weak to be fun. They simply have to be characters.

touche. I do understand that. You'll note I mentioned that this matter is most likely more about game design theory and literary tropes rather than dice pools. However, it also falls back upon another point I bring up, "power in as great a concentration as you can muster [dice pool], and style... and in a pinch, style can slide." - Xykon. 12 dice is alot for a social test. 20 is more. The player doesn't have to play a great dragon, or a dracomorph, or anything else (except maybe an elf) to get good stats for a face. However, when every NPC you go up against, as I've pointed out in less direct but fairly obvious terms, is a GM Mary Sue, then it's when you more or less need 20 dice to convince the GM to let you play the character you were told you could play, instead of being a glorified NPC.

I don't need to be overpowered. I don't necessarily need those 20 dice or the best ware around. What I do require, however, is the chance to throw the dice and see where they lay. When a GM doesn't let you throw dice, there should be a good reason, and the bigger the dice pool, the better the reason the GM should have to come up with. "Sorry, sugar, you're not gonna be able to seduce that Orc, he likes the man meat." "A butch cut, taped down chest, boy-shorts and 20 dice say he'll at least be going out shopping with me later..." "..."

Cool, that's helpful. What are the misconceptions that make Matrix too weak? It looks like we might end up with a Matrix jockey in the party after all.

1) That isn't going to convince the GM.
2) He doesn't need to let you play anything.
3) You can go run your own table.

At some point, be it gaming, dating, a job, roomates, whatever, learn to get up and walk away because the problem isn't the game, the event, the hours, the unwashed dishes, or whatever. The problem is that the two of you are not compatible. Your issues with anyone at the table, be it a GM or player is not part of the rules of Shadowrun, the size of the dice pool, or any of that. It's an issue between the two of you and complaining you need 20 dice is avoiding the real problem. Put down the character generator and walk way from that table.

1) That isn't going to convince the GM.
2) He doesn't need to let you play anything.
3) You can go run your own table.

At some point, be it gaming, dating, a job, roomates, whatever, learn to get up and walk away because the problem isn't the game, the event, the hours, the unwashed dishes, or whatever. The problem is that the two of you are not compatible. Your issues with anyone at the table, be it a GM or player, is not part of the rules of Shadowrun, the size of the dice pool, or any of that. It's an issue between the two of you and complaining you need 20 dice is avoiding the real problem. Put down the character generator and walk way from that table.

Karmagen has its fair share of problems, and is not suited for some of the advanced options such as infected, AI's, or free spirits. One thing it really gets right, though, is dice pools. Build points shaft generalists. Dice pools are one of the main measures of in-game effectiveness. A low dice pool, quite frankly, is not worth nearly as much as a high dice pool. If you play someone with average Attributes and skills, you should be able to have a lot of those skills.

With exponentially increasing (rather than flat) costs for both Attributes and skills, the character with low Attributes and skills will be able to afford more. Don't get me wrong, though. A more traditionally min-maxed character is still easy to make in Karmagen, and usually comes out a bit better than it would under build points. The generalist, by comparison, would be way over 400 BP, but is still balanced, because again, lower dice pools should be treated as less valuable.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that karmagen does a better job of accommodating both specialists and generalists.

I have stepped away from a few GMs before, one I refuse to play under ever again after gross misconduct and abuse of power to no real end. A GM's powers derive from a mandate from the masses, after all.

However, as I said a few posts back, it's generally a bigger problem for a face character, as they're going to show a higher percentage of bumping heads with a GM's favorite NPCs. It's also harder to conceive of cannon-fodder negotiators. Despite this, showing just how much power you have in your negotiations can sway the GM. It's best to not NEED to have an overpowering dice pool, but while being OVERPOWERED isn't necessarily MORE fun, being UNDERPOWERED (to the point of never having a chance at winning) typically is much less fun. While, in theory, POWERED (neither over or under) is the ideal, just what the median is WILL change based on circumstance, like the difference between having too little, just enough, and more than enough money (or any resource really). Just enough never is, there are only too little and more than sufficient.

Infected are easily done, just charge them the quality with cost equal to BP=Karma (so a Ghoul would cost 35 Karma), and apply the stat bonuses before raises, much like every other race. AIs, I can't really say, but I'd rule similar to infected. Dito for free spirits; our free spirit PC was along the lines of everyone else in a 750pt Karmagen game. Do note that we use x3 for costs, no experience with x5.

As for the rest of the post, I agree. The only generalists I play in BP gen are possession mages