Ok long time player/user who just got a few shadowrun 4e books and im looking at game philsophy here i guess.
Lets say your a adept/phys ad... whatever you get power points from magic and no sorcery/conjuring
lets say your using the rat totem as your mentor spirit using the rules from the companion so your following the totem way.

-can you be a warriors way adept? what about artisan?

-i've talked this through with a couple of friends and gotten very conflicting answers...

on the one side is the Rat "fights" in a different way than with guns/fists so you can't be a warriors way, you can only be invisable way and follow rat

on the other side is "shouldn't rat have at least 1 warrior/champion?", i mean you have hundreds of rat adepts in the world, shouldn't one of them bascially be built to fight? wouldn't rat call on him/her when Rat needs combat done? Just like there should be a few artisan way adepts of rat, but nothing near the number of beaver artisan way adepts.

Well.. im just not sure so any input would be greatly appreciated:)

You must have a totem to follow the Totem's Way but it doesn't mean you must follow the Totem's Way if you have a totem, you can follow any Way you want.

That wasn't really his question.
He's asking if he can be a Totem's Way adept following Rat and select the power list of Warriors way as per the following
"Adepts with this uality may choose one other Way’s list of favored powers as appropriate to their Mentor Spirit"

Honestly this is a GM question. Were it asked of me the answer would be no, rat doesn't get into stand up fights. Otherwise you could make the argument that any totem can do anything as they'll always need "that one guy" who does the other half of it.

No. Rat does not fight, rat flees. Rarely is it that simple.
If you're Master Splinter, you're not chosen by rat, but by Wise Warrior!

In higher metagame terms mentor spirits are less anthropomorphic(sp?) and more embodiments of a philosophy. They are unchanging, they believe their philosophy works and damn if anyone's going to suggest to them otherwise because it's integral to what they are.

I also don't think that part of logic on "Rat needing a stand-up fight guy" really works, since totems are not (might as well not be, nobody's sure) actual creatures with plans and schemes, they're personified philosophical concepts.

Rat and combat only don´t fit if you rely on the description in the mentor spirit section. But if you know a little bit about rodents, you also know that this description is quite wrong. Rats are fiercless warriors and hunters and if you would switch the mentor spirit from "rat" to "devil rat" even a low-minded GM would accept a rat-warrior-adept. I hope i could help.

But animal totems don't really have much to do with the actual animal itself. They are representations of anthropomorphized traits associated with certain animals - wise owl, brave lion, noble eagle, cunning fox, and so on.

The advantages and disadvantages of the mentor spirit reflect this abstract view. As Makki suggests, if you have a mentor spirit that does not behave in accordance with rat's description, then you should be using the stats for a different mentor spirit, even if you still call it "rat".

RAW it is no problem.
I personally would not go this way.
But I personally would also change the way the "Ways" work, because warrior is (as it stands now) the only usable way. The rest is crap, compared to warrior.

So I see the reason behind it and I do understand it. The power gap is just to big not to be tempted.
In such occasion I always go for: HOUSERULE IT BEFORE IT BREAKS YOUR GAME.

You can turn to the warrior's way, just like you can decide to become a simsense celebrity. In both case, Rat will consider you not worthy and will take your powers from you.

Only if you plan on taking the improved reflexes, if you don't need it, then some other way is much better for a lot of characters.
And even if you do need it there's always Walking the ways quality from the unofficial errata.

Don't see the problem myself.

A Rat adept following the Totem way with the benefits of the Warrior's way can work just fine. Perhaps he idolises combat, marvels at the various styles and drama of combat, hones his skills and abilities in simulations and AR gyms and spends his evenings watching violent trids, but when it comes to the crunch he 'knows' it's always better for him to run and live another day wherever possible. How many black-belt martial artists out there would consider combat a first resort? Not many I'm sure, since most disciplines are built around philosophies of self-defence or sport.

It's also important to remember that the mentor spirits in the books are archetypes only – "The archetypes below serve merely as examples of different archetypes and are not meant to apply to all cultures ... players can always work with their gamesmatser to develop a mentor spirit archetype that fits their character's outlook best." So if you and your GM decide Rat is x and that your character is incompatible with x then design a slightly different Rat philosophy or choose/create a whole new mentor spirit. One can liken it to the character archetypes – Wired Reflexes is very street samurai, but you can still be a street samurai without them.

Final observation – nobody said your character has to be a mentor's pet. He could be deeply unhappy with his mentor and wish he had something different whilst being innately and inexplicably drawn towards words and actions that mirror the mentor's philosophy. Perhaps he's bad enough at living up to the standards imposed on him that he's forever having to make peace for his transgressions. Or maybe he's just a sub-average pupil who could do better. It's all a rich tapestry to choose from.

@Mäx
Which is, if your GM does not tend to stuff your ass full of money, the best option there is....
4 Passes at Chargen, where do I sign...
(And the other boni are also quite superior. Like Combat Reflexes. )

Well for a main combat character it is, but IMO it would be pretty damm weird if the Warriors Way wasn't the best option for a main combatant.
Other character "classes" are quite fine using other options for those IP, or just getting 1 level of that power for start.
And as my last post mentioned Walking the Ways allows anyone to get discounted Improved Reflexes.

I completely disagree with this sentiment. Warrior is usually the LAST choce I make when choosing a Way for an Adept. There are so many more interesting options out there. Now, of course, if you are looking to get the best optimization possible, for a Street Sam Adept, then Yes, Warriors Way is ideal. But it is FAR from the only useable way out there.

*shrugs* I'd allow it.

If a player took the time to discuss it with me as their GM, explained their position, and told me the "why" and "how" of what they wanted -- following a totem and a Way that were, at a glance, counterintuitive, but that they wanted to make work. Just ask yourself a couple questions, really. Does allowing a Warrior/Rat character add to one player's fun? And if so, does it detract from someone else's, or from the setting as a whole (like by horribly breaking the power curve or something)? If those answers come up the right way, I don't see the harm in it. A player and a GM sitting down and talking together about an adept's mindset and how he views his powers is kind of the whole damned point, isn't it?

I might steer them towards some other more traditionally militant totems...but if they had their heart set on describing a more militant totem as "Rabid Rat," or whatever why not? If it fits the PC's very specific, personal, idea of how their mentor spirit works and their relationship with that mentor, what's it hurt?

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Sorry, but am I reading the way wrong?
For each 2 power points I get one power for a discount?
Thats the deal.
So obvious some powers costing 1/4 Point do just suck. Powers costing 2 Points do rule, or not?

In our game I was playing as an Adept Jaguar Shapeshifter with Mentor Spirit Dark King. I called him the Jaguar God of Terrestrial Fire, Lord of the Dead and the Underworld and while its aspect was of an Aztec Jaguar God, the concept was the same.
Now Rat is all about stealth and the disadvantage is all about fleeing when in combat I don't see how that fits the Warrior's Way...

See for me i've found players are never short on justifications for something, if there are no hard and firm rules the cultures and setting then there's really not much point in it. It sounds to me like the player/character wants to reap the benefits of rat without conforming to rat's philosophy. If the totems/mentors were people or political entities then to a certain extent the argument holds water, but the totems arn't grab bags or edge cases they are the embodiment of an ideal. Now that ideal might see some shift but saying "I'm rats designated hitman so his drawbacks don't apply to me." is just as valid as saying and opens the door to "I'm the avatar of the daedelous, so essence losses to cyberware shouldn't affect my resonance because i'm becoming closer to the machine." There might be a certain logic to both arguments but in most cases people are trying to apply a logic that allows them to avoid drawbacks or avoid some of the few roleplaying constraints the setting has.

So in short, if you want to be a badass totemic champion there are totems for that, rat's just not one of them.

+2 to Infiltration tests and +2 for resisting disease/poisons isn't going to break the game, when one considers how very, very, easily he could get similar bonuses already by being an adept (those are some of the absolute cheapest adept powers to invest in, and likewise some of the least likely to break the game). Hell, just going Invisible Way instead would give him Unseen Hands, which is quite a bit more efficient a way to be sneakier, when one takes into consideration the points required to invest in a Mentor Spirit.

Tack on the fact that Rat comes with a disadvantage, as well, and one that's a pretty major hindrance to a character who is otherwise trying to be combat-oriented? Sure. He can knock himself out. Like I said, I'd rather see someone choose and potentially rename an existing Mentor Spirit that fits the concept a little better, but if they're hell-bent on being a follower of Rat (because another party member is a shaman, or whatever), I don't think the Shadowrun universe will fall apart, mechanically, over the advantages Rat gives to a Warrior's Way adept.

If you want a rat adept who does combat, I think it should be done with the theme of striking from safety (even more so then a normal character).

Its actually not that bad.

The reason that warriors way recieves the 'most or best' discounts is because its basic powers are already really overcosted. Its not so much breaking it and bringing it back in line with everyone else.

Hell, their skillboost powers flat out cost double everyone elses, just because they are 'combat' skills.
Personally, I'd rather have two extra dice on my 'get good gear at a discounts' tests than one extra to shoot people. (i am talking about negotiation)

*eats popcorn at the side conversation*

What? What's wrong with being a sim-star?

You are not reading it wrong. But there are more powers than just Increased Reflexes. It is interesting that you go straight to that particular power. It is a powerful Combination, to be sure, but no more so than having a Geas on that very same power. Warrior's Way is but a single Way. There are a good many others, and they produce very viable characters.

My point is that Warrior's Way is not the Only viable Path for an Adept.

IIRC Rat doesn't like to be in the spotlight.

Oh. Well, depends on the circles you're a star in, I guess, but yeah, I see your point.

Because it is THE POWER.
If your GM is not throwing around synaptic booster(delta) for showing up.
(So yeah, if you get 1 million nuyen for keeping an eye on the dog of a simsense star, well I guess everyone would go for the ware or actually retire.)

The warrior way also holds other expansive powers. And there is no reason not to take an gease in addtion.
So you get the 4IPs for 2 PP. Thus making a pure adept competable with a cyberadept.
(Geas: No ware. Which I would allow, if essence loss is not houseruled to really hurt)


My point is: No matter what you are planing, warrior will offer you the best discount. (You really would need to cherry pick around the warrior powers, to make this false.)

So your trying with a straight face to claim that even if i don't plan to get any powers that are on the Warrior adept discounted power list, i should still go for the Warriors Way as it just is the best and the other ways are useless

@Mäx
I made the exclusion, that you would need to cherry pick around the powers of the warriors way to get an other result. It is straight behind your quote.

(So yes, you can. As you may have a troll with a lower body score than a pixie. It is just, well.....)

How on earth is it "cherry picking" if i'm not building a combat adept, you do realise that there are other thinks you can do as an adept then be the teams main combatant, right?

But i do have to give it to you that if the GM not only allows adding geas to way discounted powers, but also allows totally ridiculous geas, then getting 4 IP:s for 2PP does start to seem enticing even for those characters that don't really need those IP:s and might make me spend an other 10BP for Walking the Ways.

Yeah, people talk about Geas all the time for Adept Powers but I really can't see how to do this. I mean, any geasa worth the name of geasa is quite crippling or hindering most of the time, which would make a geasa for a power like Improved Reflexes completely useless. My two anyway.

Maybe. There is a legendary figure who had two geasa that were related. One Geas, was that he would never eat dog meat (so taken because he killed two guard dogs of a man by accident, and honourably acted as his guard dog until new ones could be reared), and the second was that he could never turn away offered food. Those a re both good Geasa, in my opinion, for the time (pre-Christianity Ireland). I would allow similar geasa in my game.
What would you consider worth being a Geas to restrict Improved Reflexes?

Not really, talisman geasa is pretty simple and non cripppling, but does home with an inherit risk.
It's same for most other types of geasa, except for ridiculous condition geas like "no ware", at that point you could just go with "being alive"

Haha. I would have to agree. A state of being that can't easily be changed (most ware requires a few hours of surgery, after all) is not a good geas. However, I believe it could work if it was something like a geas for active ware. In this case, you'd have to choose between the 'ware bonuses (or basic use, like sight from cybereyes), or the power (This would defenitely be usable with Improved Reflexes, I think).

Sorry, but no ware at least has a drawback. If I am thinking of some of the examples given in the book...

The talisman is a jocke, actually.
The only way to get hit is to lose the talisman. The only way to lose the talisman is, if the GM makes you lose it.
Then there is the question if you may just build a new one or if you need to find the old one.
If you may just build a new one, there is not much of a problem.
If you have to find it, the GM has to make a story about it.
So you are only in danger if you have railroading GM, who has a lot of free time to throw around or who loves to cripple characters.
But with this GM you would be f*** anyway.
(Talismans are rings or stuff like that. How often do you loose a marriage ring or have heard of people loosing them? Unless the putting it off to fuck the mistress.)

I would need to reread the geas sector, but there are a lot of geas which actually do nothing to you.
So honestly I would put "no ware" quite high in this list, considering the door you are closing.

A talisman is any object that needs at least 3 identifying qualities, and have some meaning to the practitioner. For a ring, it might be gold, with a celtic knotwork design and a diamond inset. That is an expensive ring, and if you are taking it on a run, I wouldn't balk at any NPC wageslave making a few extra bucks by taking it off your unconcious body (whether or not they actually kill you before they do). And it would be obvious, unless you are wearing gloves (which, you likely should be anyway).

The point of the talisman, is that it should be expensive, or very rare. If someone would be able to notice it's worth, then it makes sense it might disappear.

Yeah, talisman geasa is not a geasa worth the name geasa as Irion pointed out. Can't use it at night, can't use it at day, can't use it in winter, can't use it against humans (or any other metahuman subespecies), etc are actual geas and they do hinder you most of the time.
Wearing a ring of gold with a diamond inset and celtic knotwork is bullshit.
Sure, it is expensive, but you will only lose it if the GM REALLY is after you and most of the times the GM could take the ring out of you he could kill you anyway, so, why bother?

I get 25% reduction to all of my adept power cost for not taking ware is really fraking ridiculous.
And really isn't a valid geas, as it's either not broken or permanently broken once you get some ware.

@Mäx
I would agree with you, if the book would not be full of geas which are much less restrictiv.
Talisman is a freaking joke. One hour exercise per day. Give me a break. The book is full of it. Geas which are no brainers.
The only way to do something against it is to go one geas one power. So you need to at least pick a lot of bullshit.

@HunterHerne
Cut it out. Thats like saying having cybereyes is a disadvantage because somebody could rip them out.
Like I said, if the GM is out to kill you, you die. Does not matter what geas you have.

@Brazilian_Shinobi

Totally agree here. But Raw seems to be strange on that one...

Cú Chulainn's gaesa never really seemed to bother him until the GM, out to get him, had a crone offer him dog meat.

Telesma cost 100 and can be found in every Stuffershack.

I am aware. And it cost him his life. Such is the cost with putting limits on your powers.

Telesma and Talisman are not the same thing, Traul...

If your character screws up and gets captured by the opposition, what are the chances that they'll take every possession you have? Pretty damned good. Bye bye talisman.

GM's I know would rather capture a PC than kill them, because the Player can always continue playing as soon as his buddies break him out. Plus, more story!

I split the difference on that, sometimes it's just not realistic* to have the opposition capture the runners alive when bullets are cheap and effective problem solvers., likewise sometimes it's not realistic* to have them be in any kind of position where the rest of the team could break them out.

*For varying degrees of realistic as it applies to Shadowrun.