TheScamp: Mistake on my part. I know the rules say your armour only degrades if you actually suffer a moderate or worse wound. I guess I meant to say it would be silly to change the rules so that any attack that started at morderate or higher automatically degraded your armour (which is how some people seem to interpret it).

I still want to play the Troll that's the Rhodes Scholar.

Seeing as combat isn't the only factor in Shadowrun maybe stressing the fact that trolls have a LOT of other in game disabilities. I mean that as a troll people shun you, your big ugly and as stump as a stone on a good day BUT if players can have trolls...
Whats stopping the GM from getting a few skullsplitters himself to balance the equation.
Thats my ten cents worth.

I might be missing the point, but it seems like this is not really about balancing trolls vs gnomes.

Instead, the question might be

That's why "Troll" rhymes with "Canon Fodder".

If the troll's only asset is to serve as a distraction, then the players can plan around that by setting up distractions (via the troll) which includes multiple hospitalizations while the covert ones are sneaking around where people aren't looking. You ever see what happens at a workplace when flashing blue lights are going on outside with cops beating down on some big guy? Not a person in the building has their eye on their work. More importantly, it was just a "disturbance" and the Troll won't be involved in the "Run", just in a coincidental same-time outside occurance.

Sphynx

Yes, but if these "disturbances" keep happenning right before or after "runs" then the guy's gonna develop a very long police record. After two or three "disturbances" the guy's gonna have several cops tailing him exclusively, waiting for another "disturbance" that'll mark another run taking place.

Nah, he'd probably die before then, those kinda players tend to not mind dying and making a bigger bad-ass. But more likely, if your covert team is good, the cops never know. Corps aren't into letting the cops know they were hit by runners, as that tends to open questions on what was taken/done and why. (and if you're running on legit, legal, hard-working corps there's something wrong). And even if they are into sharing this info with the Cop Corp, a good team doesn't leave evidence and it could go days before they notice anything's missing. There's more than enough variables in there to keep it safe to cause a disturbance. And if the Troll is smart, he doesn't wait for the cops, he has something nearby detonate to distract from the distraction and cuts out before it becomes an issue. (I could really go on and on if you want....)

Sphynx

A GM's ability to please both the combat-oriented and the non-combat-oriented characters is limited. What he can do is create runs with a variety of challenges that will require a full set of PC skills and give everyone a chance to shine.

But it is really the players who are vital to this. The only way that both kinds of characters can coexist, with all of their players being happy, is for the group to actually act like a team. A team, where everyone gets to perform their roles, as opposed to a bunch of prima donnas who either turn every run into a bloodbath or turn every meet with a contact into a plodding exercise in method acting. Of course, one of the stumbling blocks to this is that combat vs. non-combat is a matter of playing style to some. This makes them less inclined to behave unselfishly, since they think the whole game should be their way.

Also, while specialization is good, give your character some general ability. Combat-oriented characters should have some social skills and abilities at stealth. Non-combat characters should seek cover in a fight, but have something, at least, that they can do to contribute. Give the guy pistols/Morrissey Elite: 4/6 or something, so he can at least plink a shot or two from behind cover. It's not that hard to make a character who is not a fish out of water when not performing his specialty. For 5 or so measly skill points, you can at least function in another area.

Heh, well we house rule it then, if the attack is moderate or over after the dodge but before damage resistance, AND the power of the attack is 2x of greater the level of the individual piece of armor, then it degrades one. For each extra 1x it degrades another one. A panther cannon shot pretty much destroys your armor. Furthermore, no normal armor can degrade below 2, as this is the raw ballistic fiber, not counting plates/ect. The only thing that can degrade them below 2 so far is fire and acid.

now, as someone said earlier.....

interesting fact: many, many GMs work in a strange way, while they do their very best to screw over any combat-based character (particularly trolls and samurai, and samurai trolls) they will never ever try to do so with deckers, riggers, mages.....

interesting fact: these GMs either just throw bigger and badder weapons and manabolts, force 12, at the team (the worst kind of GMs) or they change their entire games so that combat will not happen even once (the slightly less bad GMs)

interesting sidenote: i don't think spells stage, other than the elemental ones

interesting fact: when playing a samurai a few players soon enough learn that they must
A: Max body, at once.
B: Max willpower and get magic resistance: 4, at once.
C: Get 4 or more in negotiation, coupled with good reputation if possible, at once.
then they can go on about creating their poor characters

what i'm trying to say is: how to balance trolls abilities out? YOU DON'T! if you do you are a bad GM who can't just let the combat-monsters be good at combat and the rest be good at the rest, the team blames the combat-monsters for every wound they (the team and the monsters) take as it is, no need to make life even worse for them.....

not re-writing the game at all just because a player has a troll is good, really good, you don't triple the rating of the systems the team decks just because a decker joins, you don't give every sec-guard AV rounds just because a decker just joined.... (i've seen people do this when a samurai joins though).....
please, think of the poor combat-focused characters!
don't suck, don't change your games or encounters!

I found a pretty good way to balance out trolls, actually. Someone mentioned on here that suppressive fire is good for getting people to waste combat pool dodging. I put my party in a situation where in order to get both trolls into tight quarters (sewers aren't built for trolls) they had to transform them into animals. When the big fight scene occured, by troll sami was standing naked, so suppresive fire and a couple of called shots to the nutz took him out quickly (he only managed to quell half of the bad guys before going down). It was a cute scene.
-Keane

Shadowrunners vs all others (note 1: these are characters made to be what they are, not jack-of-all-trades, note 2: this is what the opposition should be [IMP] the first couple runs until each PC has a good idea what or what not his character can do)

A PC decker should be able to beat all security deckers or corp deckers 1v1 or even 1v2

A PC rigger should be able to demolish opposition drones with ease not loose his drones.

A PC sam should be able to slaughter (if he chooses) any gangers/sec. guards at will.

A PC mage should be able to take out any spirits or other mages he encounters.

Most of the opponents the runners will face before they get a lot of street cred will be wage-mages, sec. deckers (not LS quality) sec. guards (not LS quality) and sec. riggers (again, not LS quality).

Before any complaints are made, I want to note that these opponents are to be used if the PC's do not completely disregard all laws and go on public killing rampages.

STORYTIME: I had a PC character I gm-ed for who went on said killing spree. First off, I think he slaughtered a couple gangers in plain daylight. (he had distinctive style flaw also) Then killed someone leaving the scene, and later killed a little old lady near his aparment who was calling the cops on him. Later, when the cop car pulls up behind him (as he was riding a horse) and ask him to stop he refuses, after asking and warning him multiple times to get off the horse and anwers some questions, they gelcap his horse. He goes ballistic, kills both cops,and goes into a coffee shop nearby. I had to bring out a heavy responce team while he sat sipping his coffee with dead cops laying outside.

Wow, that's my longest post ever.

I don't think like that. I've got lots of (demi-)samurais in my group. Feel free to come and visit me if you're ever in Turku.

I've got no problem whatsoever with gunbunnies in my game. I'm not so attached to my secguards that I feel the need to avenge every single one with a Force 12 Fire Elemental, and my house rules make combat lethal enough even for the most hardcore combat characters.

Still, a character who goes around slaughtering people without adequaly covering his tracks -- and if you slaughter a whole lot of people, you've got a shitload of tracks to cover -- is going to get a lot of heat. I'm not above sniping someone who the cops know is armed, extremely dangerous and nearly impossible to arrest, if they could reasonably find him. And now they're trouncing about in the middle of a "civil" war (thanks for the idea, Nath!), so the likelyhood of getting RPGd or sniped just increased 10-fold.

OTOH, when the sammy in question is using a quirk in the specialization rules to get a 12 in his Uzi specialization of SMGs and has full ambidexterity...

That might be a balance prob in a canon game, but killing several people per init pass is easy enough in my games even without insanely high skills or full ambidex. The problem from the sammy's point of view is that the opposition can kill him easily as well.

Unless that wasn't aimed at me, in which case disregard all but the first sentence.

In my games sammies dont have to follow that template, and rarely do.

I don't do that sort of thing. I do think in terms of challenge, however-- as a GM, I have to present enough challenges to make things difficult for my players. If I have a super-sammie, it's my job to make sure he (and the player) are sweating bullets during big combat scenes.

The problem is balancing the combat needs with the other challenges the team has. If I have a team of otaku, noncombat mages, and one maxed-out troll street same, I'm in for a rough time. It'll be very hard to present enough of a combat threat to adequately challenge the troll, while not making things prohibitively hard for everyone else. But, if I make everything else too important, the troll gets left out of a lot of the run-- I can't run a Matrix-only game, or an Astral-space only game.

Balancing everything is a fine art, and not one that's easily learned. I'm still working on aspects of it. I've discovered, however, that large numbers of goons-- while difficult to manage-- can easily provide enough threat for everyone without overpowering anybody. I'll also up the power level on the "sargeants"-- squads of goons will have one or two significantly-more-powerful people backing them up. While I'll leave the goons untouched for most cases, I will up the second-stage goons to near-equal power levels. The big bosses are always set to be a match for the whole team, so that never changes much.

Any sam that followed that template in our games would die so fast we would question why they spent gas money to show up.

Maxing body is pointless, you just need enough to hit a decent soaking threashold having 21135 dice is useless; especially after armor. And Magic Resistance is superpointless as you cant get any beneficial spells cast on you either; making sure your other attributes are balanced and employing spell defense etc are far better ways of defending.

About the decker thing, I guess it depends on your game style. Because that affects what programs theyll have at what ratings, etc. Which hugely affect the outcome of said combats. If theyve only a few things at rating 6 and a basic starting deck, theyre in trouble. If its 1mil payout down the road and theyre sporting rating 8 stuff, new story.

However, most GMs rule that programs (and decks) count as far as "no gear with rating > 6" starting rule.

i don't GM like that. neither does anyone i play with.