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The Jopp
I just had a small brainfart.

A new mod for vehicles.

Tunneling Modification
The tunneling modification adds a large drill to the front of the vehicle and a system to scoop the debris to the rear of the vehicle. It also adds tracked propulsion if the vehicle did not have it.

Vehicle: Groundcraft
Cost: Body X1000 (Digger)
Cost: Body X2000 (Driller)
Slots: 2 (3 if tracked modification is needed as well)
Availability and Tools as Tracked

Diggers are designed to cut through loose dirst and earth, Drillers are basically rockmunchers.

The drillheads and digging arms are made of a combination of Diamond drill heads and Tungsten.

Drilling Time
Regardless of maximum speed of the vehicle it takes time to drill. The more massive the vehicle the more it moves per combat turn

Vehicle Speed (VS)
Vehicle Armor (VA)
Material Armor (MA)
Material Structure (MS)
Speed= Body
Armor= Drilling Speed

A vehicle with Body 10 and Armor 10 against Concrete MA 24 MS 15:

BODY/MA X VA/MS = Meters per combat turn 0,666
10/24 x 10/15=0,28 meter per combat turn

If this would have been a body 1 armor 1 drone with a speed of 5
1/24 X 1/15= 0,041666 X 0,0666= 0,0028 meters per combat turn

Drillers will not be fast and the larger they are the more obstructions they will cause, large vibrations for example.

Drillers or Diggers getting into materials they are not designed for will have halve all their "digging" values as a rock drill is not designed to dig through sand.

Skills
Base skill: Tunneling
Specialization: Diggers, Drillers, Material (Rock, sand, concrete)
Tanegar
Body x 1000 nuyen seems really cheap, and 2 slots isn't nearly enough. Remember, the vehicle has to be heavily reinforced to take the pressure of tons of earth bearing down on it when it's underground. There should be a (high) minimum Body and Armor requirement, and it should cost at least Body x 10,000 nuyen.
Dahrken
Also, it's SLOW, and you probably require some kind of life support and/or environmental mod as oxygen supply can quickly become a problem.
capt.pantsless
Also, you'll want to spec-out what it can and cannot drill through. Dirt is one thing, but stone and concrete is a whole other deal.

Not to mention just how hard making a self-contained boring machine would really be - the drill thingy in front needs to be as large as the entire front of the vehicle, and the tracks need to be strong enough to put consistent pressure on the drilling mechanism. Frankly, while you could add a purpose-built tunneling machine, making it a vehicle-mod is a bit much.
MikeKozar
It's certainly an interesting mechanic, but I wonder if there is any way to introduce tunneling without it being either badly limited or wildly overpowered. A tunneling insertion gets around pretty much every perimeter defense that a corp might set up, meaning that the run would start either at the front door or in the basement. During the approach, there are no current weapons that could stop an attack - imagine if this mod were attached to a nuke! A GM facing a tunneling team would basically have to rewrite the adventure, seeing as how they likely skip 2/3 of the prepared content for insertion/extraction challenges. There is also an issue with proliferation - if corps get the tech, then expect to see small drones popping up like gophers as the corp intel division tries to establish a perfect sensor network, or worse - autoturrets. Wouldn't *that* be the ultimate GM dick move - your team is in cover, HRT is on the way, you're just about to execute your cunning plan when a dozen LMGs pop up behind your position.

It would be a fun mod if people didn't abuse it, but this is Shadowrun. Technology is there to be abused.
KarmaInferno
There's also this:

A vehicle mod being available to install assumes that someone is manufacturing the mod in the first place.

What exactly is the market for this kinda thing?

I mean, most folks that would need a tunneling machine would BUY a tunneling machine, not retrofit or modify a different vehicle into a tunneler.



-k
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jul 27 2011, 10:35 AM) *
There's also this:

A vehicle mod being available to install assumes that someone is manufacturing the mod in the first place.

What exactly is the market for this kinda thing?

I mean, most folks that would need a tunneling machine would BUY a tunneling machine, not retrofit or modify a different vehicle into a tunneler.

-k


But... Whadda... How ab... Okay, can't really argue any points on that one. smile.gif
capt.pantsless
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Jul 27 2011, 11:19 AM) *
It's certainly an interesting mechanic, but I wonder if there is any way to introduce tunneling without it being either badly limited or wildly overpowered. A tunneling insertion gets around pretty much every perimeter defense that a corp might set up, meaning that the run would start either at the front door or in the basement. During the approach, there are no current weapons that could stop an attack - imagine if this mod were attached to a nuke! A GM facing a tunneling team would basically have to rewrite the adventure, seeing as how they likely skip 2/3 of the prepared content for insertion/extraction challenges. There is also an issue with proliferation - if corps get the tech, then expect to see small drones popping up like gophers as the corp intel division tries to establish a perfect sensor network, or worse - autoturrets. Wouldn't *that* be the ultimate GM dick move - your team is in cover, HRT is on the way, you're just about to execute your cunning plan when a dozen LMGs pop up behind your position.

It would be a fun mod if people didn't abuse it, but this is Shadowrun. Technology is there to be abused.


Exactly. The GM would need to start making-up new rules on how the tunneler is operated (You'd need a special pilot skill at the LEAST) how fast it can go. How good are the underground drones? What sort of limitations do they have? There's a whole crate of earthworms that is opened when you start tunneling on a regular basis.

Not to mention the GM now needs to start designing yet another line of defenses.....ugg.
CanRay
Great, now I want to make a trans-oceanic tunnel from Newfoundland-to-Ireland...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 27 2011, 01:20 PM) *
Great, now I want to make a trans-oceanic tunnel from Newfoundland-to-Ireland...


But they have vehicles for that already... And monstrous vehicles they are indeed... smile.gif
CanRay
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 27 2011, 02:39 PM) *
But they have vehicles for that already... And monstrous vehicles they are indeed... smile.gif
I don't know if they'd make that far a trip. After all, they were only designed to go from France to England (And back.).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 27 2011, 12:48 PM) *
I don't know if they'd make that far a trip. After all, they were only designed to go from France to England (And back.).


They are pretty impressive vehicles, But I bet you are right, though. The depths are pretty significant for a Nefoundland to Ireland tunnel.
Traul
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jul 27 2011, 06:35 PM) *
What exactly is the market for this kinda thing?

Dodging traffic jams?
DMFubar
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 27 2011, 02:39 PM) *
But they have vehicles for that already... And monstrous vehicles they are indeed... smile.gif


First, let me preface the following by saying I work in the office, not in the field, therefore, while I do have experience in the tunneling industry, it is rather limited. Of course, if anyone has any questions, I do have access to people with 30+ years experience in all types of tunneling.

There are also smaller versions than you see on on television or that were used for the channel crossing. They always push the big ones (used for vehicle tunnels and subways) to the forefront. The company I work for has used TBM's (Tunnel Boring Machines)with a diameter as small as 60" (Sewer/Water Lines primarily). There are smaller TBM's, called Micro-TBM's that are robotic in nature (can you say drone... knew you could). These can get very small (We've worked with some as small as 24" diameter). In almost all cases, the TBM's are manuevered either on a rail system, or a Hydraulic Push System (Hydraulic Rams in a pit pushing the machine forward, though this requires a large number of pits). This is the primary reason for the limited range on a TBM, the requirement for rails/hydraulic rams. I do know that there are tracked systems used in the coal industry.

Hope that helps.
KarmaInferno
A TBM here in NYC actually installs the cast concrete tunnel sections as it goes. It has two large conveyer belts, one to take the dug-out stone and soil away, one to bring up the cast concrete sections to make the tunnel walls. It has a robot arm to swing each curved concrete panel into place. When a complete tunnel ring section is formed, the digging head actually pushes against it to both seat the section firmly into place, and to drive the digging head forward.



-k
CanRay
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jul 27 2011, 12:35 PM) *
What exactly is the market for this kinda thing?
-k
QUOTE (Traul @ Jul 27 2011, 04:57 PM) *
Dodging traffic jams?
Crushing traffic jams in the grinding teeth as I'm a self-important bastard and LATE FOR AN APPOINTMENT TO DETERMINE THE FUTURE OF PAPERCLIPS!!!
The Jopp
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jul 27 2011, 05:35 PM) *
There's also this:

A vehicle mod being available to install assumes that someone is manufacturing the mod in the first place.

What exactly is the market for this kinda thing?

I mean, most folks that would need a tunneling machine would BUY a tunneling machine, not retrofit or modify a different vehicle into a tunneler.



-k


Yes, it's silly isnt it. Like someone would make a mod for...
-Converting ANYTHING into a zeppelin
-Turning your luxury yacht into a submarine
-Turning a sportscar into a hovercraft

Oh wait, that's already in the rulebook...

There's a gazillion reasons why people make stuff instead of buying it.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Dahrken @ Jul 27 2011, 11:51 AM) *
Also, it's SLOW, and you probably require some kind of life support and/or environmental mod as oxygen supply can quickly become a problem.


Yes, it IS slow, hence the requirement for tracked propulsion. Tracks gives a better grip. Also, no tunneling machine i know of is FAST.

Of COURSE you need life support and enviromental mods if you want to survive underground. Just because I dont tell you all the mods your character needs to survive underground does not mean that your GM is gonna let you tunnel to the centre of the earth without a properly fitted vehicle. All i've done is added ONE mod to the game.

QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jul 27 2011, 09:59 AM) *
Body x 1000 nuyen seems really cheap, and 2 slots isn't nearly enough. Remember, the vehicle has to be heavily reinforced to take the pressure of tons of earth bearing down on it when it's underground. There should be a (high) minimum Body and Armor requirement, and it should cost at least Body x 10,000 nuyen.


Actually, no.

As long as the drillhead is slightly larger than the vehicle then there will be no pressure to the hull, otherwise you would see animals require the same thing.

Have you seen a Badger with excessive bone growth to be massive enought to survive underground. of course not, he's built tunnels - he doesnt swim through the earth crust.

This is a modfication for anything groundbased including small drones hence the cost.

I do agree that tunneling might cause GM problems but a clever GM can easily fix that.

Hmm, yes, a list of what materials they can easily dig through would be a help.

I'm gonna modify the first post.




EKBT81
There's also the risk of running into underground infrastructure, like power lines, telecom cables, water and gas pipes and such.

IIRC there were rules for "manual" (shovel and pickaxe) tunneling in the SR3 SOTA2063 book, although the given rules for the amount of displaced soil seemed rather ludicrous to me.
Manunancy
In the badger case, one thing too keep in mind is that he's doing something very different than your drone concept : he's digging tunnels to live in, though hearth - packign some on the walls to shore them up and takign the rest out. doing it all at low depths (no morethan a few meters).

what you're modification is supposed to to is to travel by digging. If you want an even semi-decent turn of speed (meters per day isn't exactly what I'd call an usefull speed for a vehicle), that going both use a lot of power - the bigger the vehicle the worse it gets. that means you'll need to beef up the engine a lot as well as requiring some sort of anaerobic system (not much air to feed the engine underground...). With a system that will need to go for days on without refuelling if you want any sort of range. The only likely candidate is nuclear power (probably a satellite- style radioisotope generator rather than a submarine-style nuclear plant)

Which means a mere 2-slots modification doesn't even start to meet the requirements there in my opinion. Especially considering that the resulting contraption will be so slow you'll need to start digging next door to the target if you want to be there in less than several days, probably with an awfull lot of noise and dirt in the beginning. Not exactly what I'd call discretion.

Note that if you're tunelling close to the surface, you'll not only have the power lines troubles mentionned above, but also will tend to leave behind a fairly obvious trail as your tunnels settles down, especially if you're using a large vehicle.
Elfenlied
Well, Tunneling is not without drawbacks. Fuel costs should be fairly high, and it should take a helluva lot time while being really noisy. Besides, CorpSec can track you to the point of origin through the tunnel. Also, is digging through reinforced concrete even possible?

That said, it's perfect for Pink Mohawk adventures. Imagine the looks on their faces when a Nod underground APC suddenly appears in the yard of a corporate arcology, and the Tremor brothers jump out while screaming obsceneties.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Jul 28 2011, 11:44 AM) *
what you're modification is supposed to to is to travel by digging.


Actually, no.

I actually made what I said, a tunneling modification. It basically turns any ground based vehicle into a tunneler, ie a machine that digs tunnels, not a tunnelborer or landshark vehicle. Simply a tunnelmaking machine.
Itís not a vehicle that is supposed to zoom through the ground like some subterranean speedboat Ė Itís essentially a new tool.
A good idea is to equip such a vehicle with a millimeter wave radar to see through ground.

Drilling does not have to take a lot of time either.

You can have minidrones disposed through tunnels/Sewers that climb up piping and starts drilling through pipes and walls, and I have drillheads at home for hobbyworks that go through steel in no-time so I can easily imagine more efficient tools in 60 years.

You could even have small drones that use drills for drilling up locks (burglar AI's unite).
The Jopp
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 28 2011, 12:09 PM) *
Well, Tunneling is not without drawbacks. Fuel costs should be fairly high, and it should take a helluva lot time while being really noisy. Besides, CorpSec can track you to the point of origin through the tunnel. Also, is digging through reinforced concrete even possible?

That said, it's perfect for Pink Mohawk adventures. Imagine the looks on their faces when a Nod underground APC suddenly appears in the yard of a corporate arcology, and the Tremor brothers jump out while screaming obsceneties.


The fuel cost is simply arbitrated into the fact that tunneling takes time which also drains a lot of fuel (Takes longer to get somewhere when drilling/digging fromA to B with a similar sized fueltank as everyone else, who gets there in 1/10 of the time)

Digging through concrete wont be possible but drilling is possible. As you also pointed out there are drawback.
-Tracking back to the source
-Takes Time
-Can be noisy (depending on size of drill/vessel)
-Obstructions can increase digging time or even damage the vehicle
CanRay
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 28 2011, 06:09 AM) *
Well, Tunneling is not without drawbacks. Fuel costs should be fairly high, and it should take a helluva lot time while being really noisy. Besides, CorpSec can track you to the point of origin through the tunnel. Also, is digging through reinforced concrete even possible?

That said, it's perfect for Pink Mohawk adventures. Imagine the looks on their faces when a Nod underground APC suddenly appears in the yard of a corporate arcology, and the Tremor brothers jump out while screaming obsceneties.
If the area already has a large degree of subterranean tunnels in place, all it takes are some shaped charges and you can get a nice ramp up/down into them.

Tombstone, Arizona would be a perfect place to stage something like that, BTW. (Yes, yes, I also know it was in one of the novels.).
Tanegar
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jul 28 2011, 09:05 AM) *
a machine that digs tunnels, not a tunnelborer or landshark vehicle. Simply a tunnelmaking machine.

Lolwut? A "tunnelmaking machine" is, by definition, a tunnelborer. That's what a tunnelborer is: a machine that makes tunnels.
Mardrax
As an aside, this might be interesting for a mini/microdrone.
At that scale, it might actually be useful for a runner team. Plus the hassle of actually digging is a lot smaller.
CanRay
True: You'd be able to snip through false ceilings and insert a fiber-optic camera to get a good view of what's going on fairly covertly, as well as a few microphones. I wouldn't suggest it for the floor, too easily stepped on.

...

Damnit, now I'm getting ideas, and you guys know that's never a good thing!
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 28 2011, 01:37 PM) *
True: You'd be able to snip through false ceilings and insert a fiber-optic camera to get a good view of what's going on fairly covertly, as well as a few microphones. I wouldn't suggest it for the floor, too easily stepped on.

...

Damnit, now I'm getting ideas, and you guys know that's never a good thing!


Resist the Urge, CanRay, Resist it... nyahnyah.gif
CanRay
Nope, too late...

Revenge of the Nerds, 2070...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 28 2011, 01:48 PM) *
Nope, too late...

Revenge of the Nerds, 2070...


Well, as long as it has a cool soundtrack then... smile.gif
Mayhem_2006
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jul 28 2011, 02:05 PM) *
Actually, no.

I actually made what I said, a tunneling modification. It basically turns any ground based vehicle into a tunneler, ie a machine that digs tunnels, not a tunnelborer or landshark vehicle. Simply a tunnelmaking machine.


What happens to the earth being dug out? The creation of an actual tunnel requires the permanent displacement of a large quantity of soil, something modern TBMs of any size manage only by having a huge array of support machinery to take it away.

And where does the material to support the tunnel walls come from?

The ideal response, of course, is that the removed material is somehow processed into a strong and stable tunnel lining, but that, frankly, is going to take up more than 2 slots.
Sir_Psycho
Anyone who owns this in an urban environment is very quickly going to become best friends or bitter enemies with the ghoul population, depending on your level of consultancy before digging.

As for the support machinery, don't we have modular drones that can combine their strength into a wide variety of shapes that are designed for moving wreckage off survivors of disasters? I see an industrial application here. I bet they could place supports as well.
CanRay
...

I thought those were Dwarves, not Drones. nyahnyah.gif
The Jopp
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jul 27 2011, 09:59 AM) *
Body x 1000 nuyen seems really cheap, and 2 slots isn't nearly enough. Remember, the vehicle has to be heavily reinforced to take the pressure of tons of earth bearing down on it when it's underground. There should be a (high) minimum Body and Armor requirement, and it should cost at least Body x 10,000 nuyen.



Hmm, I will not agree to the slots used, mainly because it's supposed to be able to be used with drones. The slots are kept low since most of the modifications are external additions (huge bloody drill) and the internal parts are mainly connections to the engine.

Price is a bit low though. Let's put it at 2500Y per body point. Since the mass of the vehicle directly affects its efficiency it also becomes exponentially more expensive.

A body 20 vehicle (truck) would have a cost of 50 000Y which is nothing to sneeze at since that is only ONE modification, for a non-drone it will become a lot more expensive with complete enviroseal and life support.

A drone will range from +2500 to +10000 which in itself is rather expensive for a drone.

To keep it more realistic we could have a rising scale when it comes to availability to represent that large machinery is rather hard to get ahold of.

Availability= Vehicle body rating
Mayhem_2006
Just curious, what is your imagined technological solution for the disposal of excavated material and shoring up of the tunnel walls?

Also, I should point out that the rules suggest something as simple as a large dozer blade should cost 2 slots, as does an enhanced winch.

What you are proposing is *way* more complicated than that, and so should take up more slots.



capt.pantsless
QUOTE (Mayhem_2006 @ Aug 1 2011, 06:59 AM) *
Just curious, what is your imagined technological solution for the disposal of excavated material and shoring up of the tunnel walls?

Also, I should point out that the rules suggest something as simple as a large dozer blade should cost 2 slots, as does an enhanced winch.

What you are proposing is *way* more complicated than that, and so should take up more slots.



Right - a 'mole' drone could simply shift the material behind it and NOT leave any sort of tunnel. Building a usable tunnel as it digs would/should have a whole other set of rules.

That said, it is 2072, with cool futury stuff like Ultrasonic digging or LAZERS, we should be able to dig and build tunnels faster and easier than it is currently.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Aug 1 2011, 06:45 AM) *
The slots are kept low since most of the modifications are external additions (huge bloody drill) and the internal parts are mainly connections to the engine.


You have to get air to the engine somehow. And to the passengers.

Debris is going to be a major problem as well. Really, you'll have to seal off the mechanics and passenger space. And not just an air seal, it has to withstand rocks and gravel.

Vehicle structure is going to have to be significantly reinforced. Even a little dirt is surprisingly heavy. Most vehicles simply are not designed to have material pressing into them from the sides and top.

Some mechanism needs to be in place to switch out cutting heads on the drill. Most real life tunnel boring machines have to replace cutting heads CONSTANTLY.

Honestly, this is a mod that would likely have to replace a huge percent of the vehicle. That's way more than 2 slots for, say, a car. Maybe the Slot Cost should be "half the base slots" of the vehicle? That way it scales with vehicle size.

And all this is assuming we're allowing a loose "cinematic" interpretation of tunneling. Most real life TBMs measure their travel speed in feet per DAY.



-k
Mardrax
A mini/microdrone shouldn't have to worry about shoring up walls.
Trenchless tunneling has been around for quite a while. It works.
Have the drone trace three lines: one to supply water, one to get rid of it, and a fiberoptic one. Power line to be added as desired.


QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Aug 1 2011, 04:27 PM) *
You have to get air to the engine somehow.

Why? Use an electric engine.
CanRay
Don't believe dirt is heavy? Try being buried.
KarmaInferno
Yeah. Or even try just this: Pick up a bucket of dirt.

Dirt is damn heavy.

And it comes in so many varieties! Topsoil, clay, gravel-laden, rocky, abrasive, sandy, etc.




-k
CanRay
Slag.
KarmaInferno
Fun fact: Current rules on many construction sites forbid workers from standing in a pit or trench of more than a foot or so in depth without some mechanics in place to shore up the walls, even if that mechanism is a simple as having a shallow slope to the dirt walls.

This is because it doesn't take more than a couple feet of dirt to trap you if it collapses around your legs.





-k
Mayhem_2006
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Aug 1 2011, 03:28 PM) *
A mini/microdrone shouldn't have to worry about shoring up walls.
Trenchless tunneling has been around for quite a while. It works.
Have the drone trace three lines: one to supply water, one to get rid of it, and a fiberoptic one. Power line to be added as desired.


Indeed it has. In fact, I used to work for a company that carried out directional drilling for the installation of watermains and the like.

Now, in a small application such as the installation of a pipe up to 12" (300mm) diameter, the soil can be displaced to the sides, rather than being removed, which saves a big headache. If it didn't matter if the soil closed up behind the tunneling drone, that would be a workable system in sufficiently loose soils.

However, the OP specifically stated that he wants a drone that creates a tunnel behind the vehicle, not just allows the vehicle to pass.

Going back to trenchless technology / directional drilling. Yes, it exists, and yes, it allows a drone to create a permanent walled tunnel, by dragging the pipe (tunnel walls) behind it as it burrows.

However, in those applications, a drone about the size of a riderless motorcycle (ish) is serviced by a vehicle the size of a large truck, which floods the tunnel with bentonite slurry to stop it collapsing as the flexible (ish) HDPE pipe is threaded in behind the drone. There is no way on earth all of that gear could be miniaturised to fit inside the drone itself.

****

Now, crank that up to something the size of a car. For every meter of forward process you need to displace roughly 6 cubic meters of soil (assuming the vehicle is 2m wide, 1.5m tall). Soil will only compact so much, and that amount of soil is not going to squish into negligable space in order to leave an empty tunnel. So where is it going?

Similarly, the bigger the tunnel, the less stable it is. So again, you need to somehow line or shore up your tunnel. What with? And where is the material stored?

****

For a vehicle that actually leaves a stable tunnel behind it, I think you will need pretty much every mod-slot available for its size. Or some sort of ancilliary support vehicle(s).
KarmaInferno
Or, as folks have commented, a purpose built vehicle for the job, instead of a franken-drill add-on.




-k
Blitz66
I think an add-on like this would be useful for drilling through walls and such. Digging actual tunnels... not so much. You need a lot more time and resources to devote to such a thing than a runner team could really have.
Minimax le Rouge
a Shape (earth) spell would be more efficient for a runner team.
almost no noise, no collapse risk until the spell isn't dispell. A better speed too.
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