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Crazy Ivan
Ok, I was never really initially impressed by the Move By Wire reflex system, since while I thought the skillwire system idea integration was cool, I didn't think the +1 Dodge and +2 Reaction were worth it. Then as I was making a prime runner for one of my campaigns using Nebulars awesome Chummer program, I relented and installed a set (Rating 2), then got really confused. I asked my wife, who has a good head on her shoulders regarding rules and interpretations of such things, and we can't figure out what exactly is meant by the writing...

Is the system (+1 Dodge and +2 Reaction, +1 Initiative Pass)/Rating or is it +1 IP per rating plus a set value of +1 Dodge and +2 Reaction?

If it is the former, I owe the Move-By-Wire system a huge apology...
Sengir
Get a sixpack and apologize
Crazy Ivan
And here I was thinking MBW was over-priced...Hello new best friend...
Machiavelli
Welcome in the world of powergaming...^^
Crazy Ivan
yeah, thats crazy
Sengir
QUOTE (Crazy Ivan @ Aug 3 2011, 06:32 PM) *
And here I was thinking MBW was over-priced...Hello new best friend...

Well, the wording is a bit ambiguous, but looking at the old edition books clarifies the intent. Speaking of the older books, just because epilepsy and other brainfucks are no longer mandatory, you should keep such consequences in mind...maybe a slight tremor every now and then.
Yerameyahu
It's identical to Wired Reflexes, plus Dodge and Skillwires. If anything, it's weaker than SR3's, but indeed has no drawbacks. :/
Makki
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 3 2011, 03:04 PM) *
It's identical to Wired Reflexes, plus Dodge and Skillwires. If anything, it's weaker than SR3's, but indeed has no drawbacks. :/

it also adds double the Reaction than WRs
Yerameyahu
Ah, sorry. smile.gif I forgot. I just remember how incredible SR3's was.
Summerstorm
Aye... extra-actions.

Level 3 had a simple action and 4 a complex, when all is done it virtually no-time. But hey... didn't the level 4 in delta cost 16 million? *g* And mandatory once-a-month surgery to keep you going?
UmaroVI
What's funny is that MBW is the essence-friendly option. You pay more for MBW than Wired Reflexes+Reaction Enhancers but get just as much for less essence. Also free dodge and skillwires, whee. I do find it funny that if you want to, you know, avoid damaging your body/soul/whatever too much with invasive surgery, you go for the seizures.
Crazy Ivan
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Aug 3 2011, 04:21 PM) *
What's funny is that MBW is the essence-friendly option. You pay more for MBW than Wired Reflexes+Reaction Enhancers but get just as much for less essence. Also free dodge and skillwires, whee. I do find it funny that if you want to, you know, avoid damaging your body/soul/whatever too much with invasive surgery, you go for the seizures.


That observation didn't escape me either...
KCKitsune
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Aug 3 2011, 04:21 PM) *
What's funny is that MBW is the essence-friendly option. You pay more for MBW than Wired Reflexes+Reaction Enhancers but get just as much for less essence. Also free dodge and skillwires, whee. I do find it funny that if you want to, you know, avoid damaging your body/soul/whatever too much with invasive surgery, you go for the seizures.

If you want a fluff reason to not suffer from the seizures, then have a cyberlimb* with a nanohive installed. You then buy nanosymbiotes and there is your fluff reason that your character doesn't expire in great pain.


* == a lower cyber arm comes with 10 slots so you can install the nanohive, gyromount, radar, & cybersafety. You still have 1 capacity left over to install another item. smile.gif

Mongoose
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Aug 3 2011, 09:21 PM) *
it funny that if you want to, you know, avoid damaging your body/soul/whatever too much with invasive surgery, you go for the seizures.


Meh. Given just turn of the century tech, people with cerebral palsy can be plenty healthy, as far as basic (non motor) body functions go. Unlike many disabled people, they even typically have very good muscle / body fat ratios. I'll let you draw your own conclusions about their spiritual health, but from what I've seen they do as well as anybody else who faces the discrimination common to those with speech impediments and limited mobility / dexterity.
The MBW system is basically just a hack that uses cerebral palsy to control reactions. Not a big surprise that its more efficient (health wise) than using wires to control the muscles and (and juicing the body up with synthetic hormones, per the Wired Reflex descriptions), but was harder to develop / caused brain damage in beta version users.
CanRay
OK, now that you know why the Crunch of MBW is so kick ass cool, read the fluff and find out why it's such a nasty, miserable thing to have in your body.
KarmaInferno
Having what amounts to a mod chip in the brain is a miserable thing, compared to having your entire body flayed open to install wires or synthetic nerve bundles?





-k
CanRay
Move-By-Wire keeps your body in a constant state of movement almost identical to having a seizure.

All.

The.

Time.
KarmaInferno
Wired Reflexes used to do that to you too, back in the 2050s. Twitch Twitch Twitch. Maybe spaz out and kill someone before you can stop yourself. smile.gif





-k
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Crazy Ivan @ Aug 3 2011, 10:44 AM) *
Is the system (+1 Dodge and +2 Reaction, +1 Initiative Pass)/Rating or is it +1 IP per rating plus a set value of +1 Dodge and +2 Reaction?

Believe it or not, I decided on the latter interpretation. It seems everyone here disagrees with me though, so I can change my mind. wink.gif
CanRay
Wired Reflexes still should do the "Kill someone before you can stop" if you have them on all the time, and were the Munchkin Gadget of the time. The "New" off switch for them, however, is nice. It's like Mad Max's V-8 Interceptor, where you can flip on the Blower and get some extra performance.

MBW doesn't have an off switch, so they've taken that new role (That's what I love about Shadowrun, Technology Marches On!). Keep your back to the wall, remind your Chummers to never touch you if they don't know you're around, and never make a threatening gesture even in jest, and so on... They could kill you three ways before you hit the ground and not even realize it.

Gets kind of hard on friendships that way.
Mongoose
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 6 2011, 04:30 PM) *
Move-By-Wire keeps your body in a constant state of movement almost identical to having a seizure.

So does a certain natural condition called Cerebral Palsy. Its a VERY survivable condition, of which nearly 100% of the health issues relate to difficulty with daily tasks. MBW users obviously would not have those problems.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Crazy Ivan @ Aug 3 2011, 01:32 PM) *
And here I was thinking MBW was over-priced...Hello new best friend...

Just beware...it's a fickle, fickle bitch sometimes....
CanRay
Nada: "Brother, life's a bitch... And she's back in heat." - They Live
PeteThe1
Story-wise, there's also the stuff that isn't officially statted out but implied in the commentary about MBW. They may have treatments to manage the neurological problems, but how many samurai are gonna intentionally brain-damage themselves in the long term, when the decades-reliable Wired Reflexes technology works almost as well without the side effects? Sure there's always the crazies that don't think about tomorrow, just more edge now. But the real stone-cold big-picture pros? I dunno, i just don't see Argent endorsing it. Depends on character personality, I'd think.
CanRay
Um, actually, Argent does endorse it. Or, if he doesn't, he still uses it. "Run Hard, Die Fast".

But, yes, it's the hard part of a choice of edge now or life later. As most (Like 90%!) Shadowrunners don't live a year, the edge seems so much more.
Glyph
Plus, if you are one of the few shadowrunners that makes it, you should be able to afford the surgery and gene therapy to fix the neurological problems. I look at 'ware like that as being similar to smoking - it will kill you eventually, but not in a time frame that will be very relevant to the game. Although you can take temporal lobe epilepsy as a negative quality, if you want to roleplay someone who is being burned out by his 'ware.
CanRay
"... You smoke?" "No." "Start. You'll find a bag of anti-cancer prescription in the bathroom already if you don't have the trait." - Transmetropolitan
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 7 2011, 12:21 AM) *
Plus, if you are one of the few shadowrunners that makes it, you should be able to afford the surgery and gene therapy to fix the neurological problems. I look at 'ware like that as being similar to smoking - it will kill you eventually, but not in a time frame that will be very relevant to the game. Although you can take temporal lobe epilepsy as a negative quality, if you want to roleplay someone who is being burned out by his 'ware.

Why wait that long? If you have a cyberlimb get a nanohive and nanosymbiotes. That way you can have your cake and eat it too.
CanRay
Nanocake is a lie.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 7 2011, 08:39 AM) *
Nanocake is a lie.


But what about NanoHeroin?
Yerameyahu
It's all just fluff, so it's up to you to decide. Nanosymbiotes help healing tests, that's all (no TLE-x); on the other hand, MBW doesn't *cause* any real (crunch) diseases, so feel free to say that your clapping is keeping away the elephants. smile.gif
CanRay
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 7 2011, 11:18 AM) *
But what about NanoHeroin?
Nas says: "Do drugs and I'll punch your face in!"

nyahnyah.gif
Grinchy McScrooge
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 7 2011, 10:06 AM) *
"... You smoke?" "No." "Start. You'll find a bag of anti-cancer prescription in the bathroom already if you don't have the trait." - Transmetropolitan

Heh. Love me some Spider Jerusalem. He, along with Egg Shen and David Lo Pan, are NPC's in my game. Possibly Prime Runners too, if I ever find the time to stat them out. Also, if my players don't stop being quite so stubbornly Pink Mohawk, I'm throwing Akira at them. grinbig.gif
CanRay
I base a bit of Pup the Dog Shaman on Spider.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Grinchy McScrooge @ Aug 7 2011, 07:21 PM) *
Heh. Love me some Spider Jerusalem. He, along with Egg Shen and David Lo Pan, are NPC's in my game. Possibly Prime Runners too, if I ever find the time to stat them out. Also, if my players don't stop being quite so stubbornly Pink Mohawk, I'm throwing Akira at them. grinbig.gif

Remember that AKIRA is their Friend.
They need to look out for Tetsuo.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
MBW is clearly a good package, but it's not good for a starting sam, because you can't get MBW3 at chargen, while you CAN get Wired3. That might lose you two actions per round compared to Wired3, since you might have to full-dodge in IP4 if any opposition has 4 IPs. Of course, noone will dodge better... smile.gif.

I think as it is I would give MBW2 to a tech guy/utility guy with a bunch of pirated skillsofts and a few drones, but not to a sammy, but maybe I'm just not looking far enough smile.gif.
mmmkay
QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Aug 9 2011, 05:07 AM) *
MBW is clearly a good package, but it's not good for a starting sam, because you can't get MBW3 at chargen, while you CAN get Wired3. That might lose you two actions per round compared to Wired3, since you might have to full-dodge in IP4 if any opposition has 4 IPs. Of course, noone will dodge better... smile.gif.

I think as it is I would give MBW2 to a tech guy/utility guy with a bunch of pirated skillsofts and a few drones, but not to a sammy, but maybe I'm just not looking far enough smile.gif.


Street sams are not good unless they are spending 5 essence on Wired Reflexes 3? 5 essence is enormous and even if you switched to alphaware you are suddenly spending 40 BP on 1 piece of gear. Perhaps you're saying that you prefer your starting sams to be useless at their job and only when they make a boatload of money can they truly become good street sams. I think MBW2 is infinitely preferable to Wired3.
Glyph
Maxing out IPs at char-gen is like maxing out most other things at char-gen. It's usually overkill, and it has a high opportunity cost. I generally like wired: 2 plus reaction enhancer: 2 or MBW: 2 for a typical street samurai. That's usually enough for most opponents, and you will likely have upgraded by the time you're running into the heavier hitters.

It depends, though. In some campaigns, even 2 IPs might be plenty, while in others, you might get tossed into the deep end right away.
KarmaInferno
A lot of sammies I've seen that survive long enough seem to go with Wired at CharGen and upgrade to MBW later, filling the Essence holes with other stuff.




-k
phlapjack77
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Aug 10 2011, 12:42 PM) *
A lot of sammies I've seen that survive long enough seem to go with Wired at CharGen and upgrade to MBW later, filling the Essence holes with other stuff.

This

I see it as a flavor thing, MBW seems more "cutting edge", so if your character concept has the character using cutting edge tech, get MBW. If the character is more street-level or whatever, get WR at chargen.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 10 2011, 03:27 AM) *
Maxing out IPs at char-gen is like maxing out most other things at char-gen. It's usually overkill, and it has a high opportunity cost. I generally like wired: 2 plus reaction enhancer: 2 or MBW: 2 for a typical street samurai. That's usually enough for most opponents, and you will likely have upgraded by the time you're running into the heavier hitters.

It depends, though. In some campaigns, even 2 IPs might be plenty, while in others, you might get tossed into the deep end right away.


Well, maybe we're just running a high-powered game right now, maybe my view is skewed. At our table (an all-awakened table, at the moment, with three adepts and a mage), basically everyone except the tech guy has 4IPs, and I have to talk to him, because I think he made a mistake, or at least built differently than the rest.

Well, it all reflects back on the game world: basically I don't even need to bother with fights against 1IP enemies, I can just handwave those. And every simple corpsec guy will have either wired 1 or a shot of something...
DamienKnight
QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Aug 10 2011, 03:21 AM) *
...every simple corpsec guy will have either wired 1 or a shot of something...

As it should be. If you are in a high threat job, why not spend a few thousand dollars (like taking a loan out for a vehicle for your business, tax deductable!) making yourself move faster. Wires are so cheap in SR4, every cop and corpsec should have them. And all gangers expecting to ever get in a fight should have a dose or two of cram handy. This is the 6th world, everyone is operating at a different level.

Good call Brainpiercer, you play NPCs the way they should be.

I dont agree on the 4 passes being almost a requirement though. As lethal as the SR4 rules are, I rarely see fights even go to the 4th pass, rendering that 4th pass useless. Also, if they make it to round 2, they are probably not making it to the 4th pass of round 2, so you are paying alot for 1 extra attack out of 5 or 6 attacks... not especially worth it for cyber chacters (though terribly easy for Physads to do, so they always should. Especially if they follow the Warriors Way).
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Aug 10 2011, 03:17 PM) *
I dont agree on the 4 passes being almost a requirement though. As lethal as the SR4 rules are, I rarely see fights even go to the 4th pass, rendering that 4th pass useless. Also, if they make it to round 2, they are probably not making it to the 4th pass of round 2, so you are paying alot for 1 extra attack out of 5 or 6 attacks... not especially worth it for cyber chacters (though terribly easy for Physads to do, so they always should. Especially if they follow the Warriors Way).


If your combats are ending by the third pass of thr first round one of the sides of the combat is doing something REALLY, REALLY wrong.
Most of the fights in my group take 3 to 6 rounds depending on the opposition. Unless it is against a small group and we ambush them, otherwise fights will take more than one turn to be resolved.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Aug 10 2011, 10:54 PM) *
If your combats are ending by the third pass of thr first round one of the sides of the combat is doing something REALLY, REALLY wrong.
Most of the fights in my group take 3 to 6 rounds depending on the opposition. Unless it is against a small group and we ambush them, otherwise fights will take more than one turn to be resolved.


I'd really love to agree, but... mostly IF that happens, then players are bored. The last run had a fairly big final fight, and it went to IP4 of Round 2, and by that time we had spent two evenings on it.

It's funny but players are very harsh judges, and they don't take it well when things happen that don't interest them much. And there I am and I've designed a really elaborate BIG fight, and... after the two big enemies are down, they are just not interested. That's sad, but I've accepted that lesson, and cut down on fights for the next run.
KarmaInferno
Many of the groups I've been in, if a fight is reaching the 3rd or 4th turn that probably means entire buildings are being leveled and the military is on it's way.




-k
Stahlseele
That's the nice thing about playing a gang level campaign . .
NOBODY bloody cares about who is killing whom where in the barrens . .
CanRay
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 10 2011, 05:57 PM) *
That's the nice thing about playing a gang level campaign . .
NOBODY bloody cares about who is killing whom where in the barrens . .
If buildings are falling down in the Barrens, the News Agencies care.

Thems good ratings!
Stahlseele
Yes, well, and the inhabitants, so we usually try to limit the fallings of buildings to those of people we want squished underneath . . try being operative word here . .
You hit one little gas main and have some of the burning debris crashing into a gas station and you are called the humanoid typhoon for the rest of your life ._.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Aug 10 2011, 07:44 PM) *
Many of the groups I've been in, if a fight is reaching the 3rd or 4th turn that probably means entire buildings are being leveled and the military is on it's way.


The third or fourth turn is about 12 to 15 seconds. Even if someone is thinking about calling the military, it's not like they have General McGeneral on speed dialing and said General has a regiment ready to deploy just by giving a call.
And by ready to deploy I mean, everybody is already suited up, inside the vehicle just waiting for a call. Even then, just the time to call the General and the General issue the orders would take at least one minute.
That's the problem of playing combat in rpg, it took half an hour to finish it, but in game it was just 30 seconds and people lose the track of time.

Last combat I had, it took 5 minutes in game. It's alright that at least 4 minutes of the combat was just people on both sides pinned down taking pot shots while one of the members of the group was cutting through a wall and the security forces were securing the perimeter and waiting for backup.
CanRay
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 10 2011, 07:04 PM) *
...and you are called the humanoid typhoon for the rest of your life ._.
With a sixty-billion double-dollar bounty on your head?
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