I'm trying to put together a new group for gaming and we have one guy who keeps coming around and wants to be part of it.

The problem is this guy has NO idea what roleplaying actually means. He just couldn't understand why you'd take flaws other than as a BP boost, he didnt play his character even when (as GM) I basically handed him situations tailor-made for character development he just strolled through them and said "Ok, what now?"

He got his start with Warhammer so I cant fault him too heavily, but he doesnt seem to get that the game is more than just stats and numbers and we cant seem to make him understand that.

If he does end up in the game, do you guys have any ideas how to get him to actually play a character rather than just roll around as a giant stat-bloc?

Tell him that you're going to focus on character development heavily, and spend a session or two diceless, to get his feet wet. Award a handful of bonus Karma for character backstory, and a point or two every session for being in character on at least one memorable occasion. Nothing like practice and mechanical rewards to get a player to grow.

On the other hand, when he gets a taste of it, he may not be interested. When you make it clear that your group's play style involves roleplaying, he may bail. The above suggestions still apply, because that gives him a chance to see what he's getting into up front.

Another option is ask him to play a combat-centric character. He'll be bored out of his mind while the others play, but when combat comes around he'll get to be busy and roll lots of dice. Though in my mind Blitz66's suggestion is a better choice. I just wanted to present this option.

If he/you go for this option his karma rewards should reflect the lack or roleplay IMHO.

-D

Excellent suggestion, Blitz.

Do you actually like the guy? If you don't want him in your game, then just don't let him in. You don't have to let him join if you don't want it.

If you like the guy, and want him in your game, it gets a bit harder.

Start asking him to come up with tactics before the lead starts flying.
Work into the ROLEplay slowly, start with tactics (I'm sure he can handle it) and work your way slowly towards where you'd like him to be.

I couldn't disagree more. Slowly prepping one player for the play style your table prefers is going to be a very, very frustrating process for everybody involved, and the rest of the group will suffer for it. He should know the expectations up front. Do what you can to help him get started, but if he can't get into your group's play style, then it's best to know up front. You're wasting his time if he doesn't like it when you switch things up on him, and you're definitely wasting everybody else's time if they're showing up for one type of game but you're presenting another for his benefit.

since there was apparently a double posted topic:

Sounds like the guy needs to learn the effects of social engineering. Put him at severe disadvantages and make him work out in game how his character/ stat block can make it out. That and giving him credit for thinking (aka in things where there arent necessarily rolls to be made) which translates into game success.

I find when I have new players that the biggest hitch is getting past the "you can do anything, what would you like to do?" question where you get the blank look and the oh shit let me see my stat sheet response.

I only once had trouble with a guy like this who couldnt come to terms with his character/ roleplaying. In order to solve the issue I killed off his character with a sniper blah blah blah etc and then gave him a character with amnesia and a few other nasty qualities. The way I played it was I wrote his character sheet out and gave him a few details printed out that he knew about himself. He learned to roleplay in order to figure out what he could do/ who he was and loved the game after that. When you take away the stat sheet and make them play it out then most often they actually learn how to make good rp characters themselves.

That's actually something I would really, really hate to see in a game.

Wile I think Blitz is right that you have to set your expectations up front, you should also be willing to work with this guy. Is he combat-centric? If so, start by teaching him to roleplay combat. Show him how his character would fight, what tactics he'd favor, what kind of smack talk he uses, and so on. Once he's started developing there, show him how this applies to other aspects of the game.

Why I despise Amnesia is that the player is no longer responsible for building the character. He's got no investment in it, therefore he doesn't care about it. He needs to learn to invest in the character, get a feel for what it's about, in order to learn to roleplay. It might be as simple as coming up with odd Knowledge skills, such as Nascar Racing or Pop Fashions. But once he starts developing a connection to the character, he'll start developing.

I knew this guy for a while so I built a character I knew he would like and gave him the oppportunity to describe build and looks etc. I just didnt give him the specifics stats wise or prior history. The personality is what matters most much of the time in my experience and couple amnesia with flashbacks gave me quite a decent way to warm him up.

Look, the player is obvious comfortable where he is, I've been there.
He doesn't want to get more involved, but at the same time feels left out.
You can't throw him cold turkey into actual ROLEplaying (I've tried playing a "face" character can I can't do it) you've got to slowly work up to what the table expects of him, finding things he can enjoy without pushing his comfort zone (what he feels good at) too far.
I'm still in this process myself, I'm not as involved as I want to be in the games I'm in, but I'm more involved than I was four years ago where I was mentally not at the table for large portions of the game and only really showed up during combat.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but the point is, the more a player invests in a character the more likely it is that he'll roleplay it.

Going back to the OP, if they player is combat-centric, help him roleplay combat. Encourage him to be descriptive, and come up with clever tricks as befitting his character. And who knows, maybe he'll surprise you. One defining moment for my SR3 troll was when he saw his friend go down under a cybered piasma. He took a hit of kamikaze, and charged it with his empty shotgun, bludgeoning it to death while screaming his friend's name. It was amazing to witness, and moments like that can really make a character.

Something that works well is asking for a background (you can use the "20 questions" method to help him with the process). Most of the time, the players are more interested in (and better at) roleplaying their character when they have one.

yeah. Diceless session is the way to go.

Diceless is ok for some, but for others, it can be a real turn-off. I'd advise baby steps: get-to-know-you sections of the game, more interplay with contacts, that sort of thing.

Questions:
1) Does he feel he has time to roleplay? It's fully possible for someone from a simulation background to sit at a table and realize that the team has spent the last half hour accomplishing none of the stated mission goals. In such a case, some people will use this as an opportunity to not contribute more to the delay.
2) Is the table freeform or is there an arranged way of taking turns? If it's freeform, he may feel that his attempts to roleplay take time away from people who are "better" at it than him and he may be deliberately letting them roleplay instead of him.
3) Is he playing a static character compared to the other characters? Many roleplayers create "unique snowflakes" that constantly demand attention where a simulationist creates a "2 dimensional character" that knows who they are and don't have much of a reason to grow further.

I want to clarify that, when I say "diceless session," I don't mean "resolve everything without dice." I mean "a session in which you don't need to roll the dice - more than once or twice, anyway." Get-to-know-you and meeting contacts are exactly the sort of thing I've used in other systems to introduce people to the idea of roleplaying.

If he doesn't leave the table after this kind of demo, but isn't quite getting it yet, then yeah, I suppose Draco18s' suggestions would be a way to get him involved more, but apparently it's a multi-year process. Just don't change your game up to make it happen, because a table full of people who want to play your way is more important than a specific dude who doesn't. I'm impressed that Draco18s' table has groomed him for roleplaying for the last four years, but don't feel obligated to go to the same lengths, because that sort of thing can be a huge drag on the group's enjoyment.

You guys are thinking too far ahead. Start with the basics.

Make him do Twenty Questions. Seriously.

If its sucks, send it back and give him one of your other players or your own 20q's as an example (perhaps from a character not being used in the game). There's a fine line between having enough detail to be interesting and grab you, and feeling like a chore. Don't force it, but do help with suggestions.

Then add the carrot and stick treatment. Make It Clear that you WILL be handing out the 'good roleplaying, and humor/drama' karma from the suggested rewards section more so than usual, and that you may give situational bonus dice out for excellent ideas. (this may encourage feelings of jealousy if he doesn't feel he's getting a fair treatment when the other players are doing awesome things. This is good, but remember its a carrot - throw a bone his way even if he doesn't deserve it as much as the other players. Playing your character well is something you ease people into)

Part of the problem is that your new guy likely just hasn't been exposed to *really* good roleplaying. As well, it sounds like he's just a natural thinker and numbers guy, who can pretty easily fall to the dark depths of minmaxing and roll playing. If you can turn that attitude towards a more productive and enjoyable game, you'll probably end up with a decent player who's really hungry to learn more about the setting.

I'd plus one the 20 questions. But I'd also talk to the guy about the differences between role playing and wargames. He may be under the impression that the role playing games are just wargames where you only control 1 person. Also, if he is new to RPing, he may be trying to figure out what he needs to be doing as he is not used to being in the sandbox type situations the SR presents.

I throw my hat in to the 20Q idea, as well as doing a "background" session if available. But it does really depend on the type of player he is and his comfort level of role-playing.

If as a DM, you don't feel comfortable for whatever reason handing out drama/humor/role-playing rewards, a system my groups tend to use is the "point" system (though we tend to call it the waffle system, in honor of Dorkness Rising)--
Essentially, when something stunning or exceptional happens in game through role-playing (everyone is cracked up laughing from an in-game joke, touched by a piece of role-playing, or whatever), someone who thinks it is extra karma (or xp, regardless of the system) worthy, calls out point or waffle. If the majority of the party agrees, then extra goodies are awarded at the behest of the players. To prevent abuse, I usually cap the amount per session at 2, maybe 3 at the most.

I would agree. The 'players nominate other players for awesome moments' system removes a lot of the potential arbitrary gm favoritism aspect of it. Giving pats on the back in the form of karma or perks for doing a good job rping just feels *good*. I would second ivan's idea as being a good one.


A system I've yet to try is the Insvisible Awesome Point system, which runs alongside whichever other 'Good Rp kickback' thing your group favors.
Its where, when the GM notices that you did something awesome or critical, or especially funny - one of Those Moments, he just writes it down in his notes. And lets them build up over time. Each point is worth approximately 1bp or karma, depending on your players and rate of character progression you want. The difference is that instead of just giving the players the extra karma, which can spiral out of hand over time, the GM uses these points to provide in character kickbacks to the characters - a new piece of gear, a new favor, perhaps enough to pick up a 5bp quality after some time practicing their art, your mentor spirit decides you should learn a new spell, that kind of things. Things and themes that fit in with the character, but aren't quite covered by the Contacts/Favors system.
Putting points to it is just so that you can measure how often freebies are handed out, and a side benefit is being able to see which players are behind the others, so you can give them more opportunties to shine in the spotlight.


Regarding your problem player: The best thing a gm can do is just TALK to people. How is he with the vidya games? You might have some success with the 'treat it like its never winter nights instead of warhammer - the world's here for you to mess around in. Its not just a square table with easily spotted enemies.'

This damn decade. I was going to say Baldur's Gate instead, and then I remembered its 2011. goddamn. I feel old

Don't worry, in another 2 decades, the future 26 year olds will try to explain something to the future 23 year olds, and not be able to, because the 23 year olds don't have the cultural background necessary to understand it.

Then us old farts can make fun of them for not understanding what we grew up with ("Man, you remember petroleum powered cars?").

Don't feel bad, I'm not used to this decade either. And I was a child of the 90's unfortunately. Born in the wrong era.

I remember rotary phones. Enter yarn: 1 day a young kid came in lost (I was 12 or something in the mid 80's) and my Mom let the kid use the phone. The kid commented "Where are the buttons?". That was the day my mom decided we needed to replace the phones....

I have been having similar problems lately with a new group. I have one player who is an old school 'runner but the rest have no experience with SR, or any PnP RPG for that matter.

That being said you might need to consider how well this player knows (or doesn't know) the game world. Its really hard to understand a character when you don't understand his place in the world around him. Spending some time with the player and developing a character background that has some context in the game world might help.

I'm old enough to know what a rotary phone is. Had one as a kid (not hooked up, though, but as a toy). My grandparents also had one they still used up until they moved into a retirement facility.

OH MAN.

PHONE BOOTHS. Remember those?

My Shadowrun rules are older than some of the people on these forums. I still have my first character sheet, which was created using an electric typewriter.

I've seen one of those in a museum.
(just kidding, my parents owned one and I remember playing with it)

Use positive reinforcement rather than punishment. Don’t assign arbitrary roleplaying penalties or force him to do various roleplaying challenges. To start off a new player who comes from a different gaming background, try to equate roleplaying with beneficial effects rather than negative ones:

Bonuses for well described actions

Encourage him to explain why he does actions, and comment if that action is in genre or not (in a supportive manner, don’t just tell him it is wrong)

Stop feeding him situations designed for character development and instead comment on his choices “I notice you tend to prioritize mages first, is that because you had a bad experience with mages?”

You also want to avoid favoring RP heavy players at the same time. If everyone in your group is good at roleplaying but him, you don’t want him to feel singled out or picked on.

See if he’s interested in the fluff of shadowrun. He might not roleplay because he doesn’t know much about the world, and doesn’t’ wan to be wrong.

This really is a situation where I’d start with a light touch. You can always use heavy measures later.

Twenty questions does work, but basically it's just a tool. Any directed character-building approach would work. If you only apply them to the non-roleplayer, he'll feel unfairly singled out. It'll only work if you apply them to everyone.

[qoute]I would agree. The 'players nominate other players for awesome moments' system removes a lot of the potential arbitrary gm favoritism aspect of it. Giving pats on the back in the form of karma or perks for doing a good job rping just feels *good*. I would second ivan's idea as being a good one.[/quote]
This is a very good system. It works wonders in Savage Worlds, where awesome stunts is supposed to earn you a bennie. You can consider awarding a 1 point Edge refresh for it, or maybe even 1 point of bonus karma is everyone agrees on it.


I've still got my SR1 book, autographed by Jordan Wiseman. Admittedly, my first character sheet was a xerox, not a typewritten one.

However, when I was a kid, we didn't have electric typewriters. Just manual ones.

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Those are the things superman strips in right? someone oughta arrest that clown for attempted public indecency!

Honestly, I never saw one I could step into and close the door like that. Just pay phone booth box things that had a phone and a dangling chain where a phone book used to be.
I.e. the one on the right.

I had, and used, a rotary phone until I was in my mid-teens, didn't have cable until I was 16 or so, and remember when gas was $.70/gallon. I was born in the late '60's. Man, I'm old and crumbling into dust.

Superman seems to occasionally have the same problem.




-k

He changed inside a car once too (also, where did he stash all that stuff he was carrying?).

I've had to do that too. generally, after i had to get undressed in the car too...

We've all changed clothes in the car at one point. I did a few weeks ago because I needed new pants, but had to wear my old pants in order to buy the new ones, but I wasn't going to wear them all day, so I changed when I got to work.

I used to type my elementary school papers on a non-electric typwriter. And yes I still have all the 1st ed books from way back. Great resource material when I need it.

Never came across how the Benny system works in Savage Worlds, at least as far as players nominating them to get things. The GM we had was very...stingy with the rules, and we never really saw the books, so I learned more after the fact. But the bennys was a nice system in concept, and I liked the fact that we had something semi-tangible to represent things with.

Though the system we learned our "point" system on was Scion, and that was largely houseruled. It worked out really nice, deciding to take an extra point of Legend now or Xp later.

Reminds me again that I wish Jim was still around to run games. His last game was a scion game. Hero to God in 11 weeks.
And yes, they did destroy the universe.

We only went to Demi-God. Playing at God-level really didn't interest most of us. Demi-God was a blast, just because we were drunk with power.

Bennies are basically rewards for doing cool stuff. Savage Worlds runs best when the bennies flow freely, so people are more willing to spend them on outrageous stunts, thereby earning more bennies. It's a fun little cycle, when it works.

In my home game, the GM hands them out when players make him laugh, or when others say: "That was cool, she deserves a bennie." You don't need a formal nomination or a vote to earn one, you just tell the GM that you really enjoyed what someone just did; if the GM agrees, that person gets a bennie.

i do a "play of the day/special mention" karma award, its for when something was just so awesome/well done/what ever, a few of the other GMs that i know have taken this idea on board, its only for 2/1 karma but it can be given to anyone and is normaly a group vote. Some of the "play of the day/special mention" have gone to people for such things as, jumping out a window in a bar fight that she didnt want to be a part of, setting up a zip line from a corp hq to the apartment block near by and using it as an escape route and not being hit by any of the 3 vulcan cannons bullets, waiting for the person that they were kid napping in the spa while in heavy mil armour, putting a guy who was on fire out with a .50 cal...

on topic:

i have been in this situation before, to fix it up we went and had a couple of drinks and i asked him what he wanted out of the game. i found that being straight up with him about it not only helped clear the air and get the point accross easily, but he also was more receptive to what i had to say

The problem in SR4.5 is that's not very immediate. Ask any psychologist, they'll tell you that the best reinforcers are the ones given right away. Sometimes you can do this with Edge refresh, but if the comedy gold happens at the beginning of the game, they might not have spent any Edge yet. Rewards for coolness and comedy should be on-the-spot for best results.

We used it, and I followed that it was the reward for cool stuff, but we never actually got a real briefing about them, nor were they implemented consistantly. I just blame the GM though, as we really never got to see the books unless it was for equipment and talent/perks/whatever the special stuff like that is called.

There's nothing preventing GMs from handing out bonus Karma during the game for good roleplaying, cool moves, etc. You'd probably want to establish a guideline for limiting how much Karma a person could gain this way each session/adventure, but it gives you your immediate feedback, and possibly encourages other players to do similar things in game (similar in terms of quailty/game improvement, not mere imitation).

Perhaps refresh a point of someone's Edge for doing Awesome Things?

Handing out bonus karma in the middle of an adventure isn't much of an inducement. While it is immediate, it's not reinforcement, because it can't be spent until after the game ends. Also, it means good roleplayers get a huge bonus over learners, since they can earn a lot more karma during a session.


Again, what happens if there's really cool roleplay just as game begins? No one's spent Edge yet, so there's no gain.

Nothing prevents the Current Edge from exceding the Total Edge. The system supports it, so the GM can just give away free Edge points anytime he wants.