Ok, here's the thing: if you have a Magic of 5 or 6, there's no reason to summon a Force 8 spirit. You may as well go for a Force 9, so you get another optional power.

If you have Magic 6, then if you're going all-out, go for the force 12. But otherwise, there's only two efficient forces to summon spirits at: Magic, and Magic x 2. Frank Trollman did the math on that, and he conclusively proved that this was the most bang for your buck.

Now, some people (like TJ) will throw GM fiat in your way of you try to summon anything bigger than a breadbox. Most of us don't do that, however. I have no problem with mages summoning big spirits, but I might throw a few tricks if they try *binding* one. The important difference here is that snap summoning a high-force spirit is an act of desperation, while binding one requires planning and forethought. A powerful spirit isn't going to like the idea that you're planning on binding it to servitude.

Interesting that you determine that the rules in the book are GM Fiat. Interesting Indeed.
I firmly believe in the Fluff, in that Spirits of Force 7+ are supposed to be extremely rare (After all, The average mage in world can not even summon one). I (we) just use the rules that are already there (Edge Expenditure to resist Summoning/Binding) to enforce that...

As for Frank's Proof, I call BS. It is Opinion, and nothing more.

I'm not sure this thread is the place to point out a glaring oversight most people have about Banishing... yes I am. This one is about Summoning. I'll start a new thread.

I'd be interested... Start away...

May I ask where it is stated? I couldn't find any information on spirit power levels on the spot, maybe I just looked in the wrong direction.

Read the Editions from 1st through now. Read the Novels.
No where does a magician summon a Virtual God to do its bidding. (Insect) Shamans notwithstanding. Spirits are at worst your equal, except for very rare circumstances. At best, they are slaves to be bent to the Magicians own desires. Any Spirit at Force 7+ is far superior to any Mortal (short of an IE/GD), and once you hit 10+ they likely see you as such an insiginificant bug that they do not even recognize you as sentient. Gods do not serve mortals, it is quite the other way around. Fluff wise at least.

Yes, I know, Mechanically, there is no reason not to game the system for the most powerful spirit you can get. But it is just that. Gaming the system. My Two Cents, and not everyone agrees with it, but there you go.

Previous edition fluff != SR4 rules. You can kick and scream about that if you like, but tons of people don't make gentleman's agreements for current rule sets based solely on past experience with earlier editions due to the simple fact that they don't own that stuff and shouldn't have to, particularly given that a lot of that stuff is fundamentally contradictory. Beyond that, there's a difference between not being representative of the general population and being truly rare-- if the Awakened were classified as their own species they'd handily nab "Least Concerned" conservation status. If even a tenth of the magically active people in Seattle are Magicians with a Magic of 4 you're talking about several thousand potential summoners. Between corp response teams, magical research departments, twisted mages, aspected domains and the orgs it hits me as pretty weird to think that a summoner rocking a 4 isn't something runners aren't going to run into from time to time. It's an RPG, and dealing with unusual crap is what player characters do.

I never said the Fluff = Rules. The Fluff informs the Rules, for without the Fluff, the rules become arbitrary and meaningless. Shadowrun is a living, breathing world. It is not a Set of Mechanics. You are spouting the same arguments that many use to demand an increase in the Skill Ratings because mecahnically they disagree with the Fluff, and they believe that the Fluff on those Skill Ratings is garbage. The game is fluffed to render a specific theme. The world is set up to imitate that Fluff, and thus allow that theme to come to life. Unfortunately, there are some who seem to think that the limits of that theme (and thus the Fluff) are wrong and broken. The fact is that the Fluff DOES support the view I have put forth, regardless of which edition it comes from.

The fact remains that Spirits above Rating 6 are powerful compared to mortals. You can't really argue that. And the higher they go, the more powerful (and thus overpowered) they become (even if you can design some countermeasures to partially compensate for that). In the end, just like the Pornomancer, the Climbing Monster and the Medic from Hell, things become broken when taken to extremes. Spirits above 6 are the extremes. In small doses they are fine, but when every character, whether PC or NPC is assumed to be able to just casually summon a Spirit of Force 8+, then the world rapidly breaks down (Just as it does with overpowered characters). Because I can guarantee you that if the assumption is that PC's can do it, then the NPC's can do the same or worse (After all, the PC's are not Special Snowflakes, and the Corps have greater resources than a PC will ever have access to). At which point, you have an Arm's Race in every sense of the word. It is a race the PC's WILL LOSE in the end.

Anyways... No worries. Different interpretaions of the Rules are allowed. You appear to have a different interpretation of the Game World than I do. No Problems. I just think that it is very disingenuous to suggest that Spirits of Forces above 6 are the Norm for the Game World. It is only that way if the GM does nothing to control that world.

No, it really doesn't. The fluff doesn't say anywhere that mages routinely decide not to do things that they are perfectly capable of doing in life-threatening situations or that powerful mages don't exist or that if they do exist they stick to gentleman's agreements even in dangerous situations. It supports quite the opposite impression, from what I've seen. Magicians happen to be rare, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a happy medium between "every named NPC being able to summon Force 8" and "The MCT HRT Captain can summon Force 8." Some characters are going to be able to summon big spirits. That is not "gaming the system," as you imply; people will summon Force 3s or 6s more often, sure, but to imply that pulling your trump card in a desperate situation runs counter to the setting hits me as pretty willfully ignoring the fact that in most settings characters like to continue breathing.

You are right... SOME NPC's can summon the Big Spirits. BUT, EVERY PC can do so from Character Generation (if you follow the Guidelines for Character generation espoused here on Dumpshock, which I completely disagree with), which breaks the verisimilitude of the world. The problem with your argument is that the vast majority of players WILL summon the most powerful spirit they can get away with, which in most cases is Force 8+, unless something is there to remove that temptation to do so at a whim. The only real detriment to that is to use Edge for Spirits to resist the Summoning and Binding that is so commonly talked about here. Otherwise, that Brand New, 400BP Magician PC is going to summon that Force 12 Spirit, because he has a 2 dice advantage over the Spirit, and will likely (on average) only take about 8 Damage doing so (Which may be more or less, of course) because he has a buddy with a Medkit standing by. This is the disconnect that so many people miss. If it was SO EASY to do so, every spirit you faced would be at that level. The fact that it does not happen, should be a good indication that there is something that keeps it from happening. It is gaming the system when they know that there are no consequences to doing so, because they can bully the GM into letting it happen. That does not fly at our table, and never will.

I agree that in the crux of the moment, when you are out of options and are about to die, there is no harm to try that Big Summoning. But, that is not how it plays out in practice, if the vast majority of Dumpshockers are to be believed.

See, to me it doesn't break verisimilitude. What runners do isn't an every day thing practically by definition. That powerful runner mages like to summon big critters when fighting yakuza has little bearing on what Joe Wage Mage is doing at work.

But it does if every mage is capable of such from character generation. IF that was the case, don't you think it would be highlighted in the Fluff describing THE WORLD ITSELF. NPC Mages are just as capable (if not more so) of providing the Force 12 Spirit to protect the Secured Site under that assumption; don't you think it would be a trope for the Corps at this point? Since it obviously is not, then such High Level Spirits are NOT the Norm, and thus PC's chould NOT be summoninng them like the buy Growlie Bars at the Azmart.

The assumption that Runner Mages are More Powerful than the Mages the Corps can employ is where the disconnect is apparently happening here.

Maybe an opinion, but like I said, it is supported by the Fluff.

No worries though...

I don't truck with this 'fluff' you speak of, but I know that summoning and using (or trying to use) powerful spirits is the fundamental story in all literature. You never summon something weaker than you… that'd be stupid. And you always eventually get killed by something too strong. So knock yourself out.

I don't assume PC mages are more powerful than hypothetical corp mage X, no. There's certainly going to be people out there who can match or trump a shadowrunner. I do believe that 400 bp PC mages are more powerful than say, the professionalism 3 corp sec wage mage mook listed in the book though. To quote that table you're fond of, it's not hard to have a starting shadowrunner who is a "veteran" with multiple skills and can "handle difficult tasks with ease." Very little of the shadowrun fluff really deals with protagonists who aren't in some ways pretty exceptional. I know that sticks in the craws of many players who seek a playing style that leans more towards simulationist than cinematic, but, well, that's the fluff (and hell, fiction in general) for you. Food Fight may be the intro adventure, but after a while they expect you to handle yourself in a pitched battle against shedim.

Which you can do with a Mage with Magic 4, Skill 4 and a Mentor. You don't need 20 dice to compete.

No worries though. As I said in the Mohawk Thread, I prefer the game at 1-5 on the Mohawk Scale.

Not all of us like to nerf the players. Shadowrunners are supposed to be capable, so they should be able to do powerful things.

That said, the biggest spirit a starting SR4.5 character can summon is Force 12, and that carries a tremendous risk. You're going to take physical drain from it, you're not going to get many services, and it's not going to stick around that long. Snap summoning a huge spirit like that isn't a big deal, because it's an act of desperation and not a normal tactic. You can't keep doing that without killing yourself, plain and simple.

Now, binding a force 12 spirit is more problematic. You can keep that up indefinitely, if you know what you're doing. But summoning a high-force spirit is not a big deal.

Honestly, I don't even really mind gentleman's agreements or nerfing a sheet to keep things feeling cozy. It's just when it's implied that it's what the fluff intends that I raise an eyebrow. Generally speaking, shadowrun stories tend to follow the same general outline: the protags try to play things low profile and then crazy shit happens and eventually someone has to do something ballsy (and often not very subtle) to get them out of it while wearing their big god damn hero hat. Sure, runners take their lumps, express angst and even die in shadowrun books but it's rarely because they were particularly average. Fluff intentions are thus a really hard thing to draw any hard conclusions about. You'll usually get a better story out of a tragedy than a smooth run, so while crazy stories may be intended as "exceptional examples" in-universe they're usually also the only examples that people care about irl. It's almost inherently biased.

Valid point. Summoning a great spirit should be something not taken casually.
I just thought maybe there are some rules limitations save 'great, you got him. Now soak 20 drain'.

You know, I have read just about all the novels and the fluff. There are examples of spirits being "virtual gods", although if I had to benchmark them, they come in at force 6 or so. The very first core rulebook has someone killing himself by summoning too powerful of a spirit.

I have no trouble with mages summoning force 12 spirits, because if they happen to succeed, they're probably in for a world of hurt.

Which is my point (I too would place most of those spirits around the Force 5-6 range). You have an extremely powerful ally at Force 6. WHY would you want to up the stakes by summoning a Force 10 Spirit? An Entity that is so above you that it does not probably even recognize you as anything other than a nuissance. Yet, in the game, everyone says to go for it, because you can do it with absolutely no problem. Fortunately, there are rules to allow you to say "NO" to that type of shennanigan. A Spirit above Force 6 is pretty unstoppable; one at 10+ is virtually indestructible, and WILL wreck your game if it is not a significant part of your plot. PC's should NOT be summoning such entities just casually, or with little fear of consequence, death from overstepping your bounds being chief among them.

No worries...

At last we have a legitimate complaint... against the GM.

If the GM wants a street-level game, he shouldn't be approving characters with 6 Magic and Restricted Gear for bigger foci. If he's not running a street level game, then he needs to be making said mage go through HTR teams. Said mage should quickly garner a reputation as a walking force of nature and be hired for jobs that REQUIRE F10 spirits knocking down buildings and throwing tanks.

Alternately, perhaps the mage, in-character, doesn't even realize the risks he's taking. Everybody knows spirits are powerful entities, and that summoning/binding them carries extreme risks. Even with professional training, magic is a personal, subjective art. If he was born with that high willpower to soak all that drain, he might be aware that he's exerting himself, but not that he's exerting himself to an extraordinary level.

TL;DR: The only problem I see with your scenario is a GM expecting a character with Magic 6 to be challenged by Professionalism 3 mooks. Either don't bring a pistol to rocket tag, or tell the player to stick to pistols before the game starts.

Interestingly, we do not suffer from this problem, all that much, at our table (Our Magic 6/7 and Resonace 8 Characters are OFTEN challenged by Professionalism 3 Mooks; it is all in the setup)... Contrary to belief, there is no gentleman's agreement in effect to keep dice pools low. We just do not game the system to create characters with 20+ Dice in the primary areas. The other reason, for spirit control, is that we use the Edge Rules to resist summoning and Binding. Any spirit above Force 3 automatically spends Edge to resist. Spirits of Force 3 and lower are considered to be compliant most of the time, unelss the Mage has garnered a reputation for abusive behavior, at which point they too will spend Edge to resist.

It is really not all that hard to keep things under control, as long as you remember that controls already exist in the mechanics of the game. It is very easy to control Summoning/Binding, or Mages, or Faces, or whatever other "Broken" archtype exists in game. The issue is not that they are "overpowered," it is that many GM's refuse to implement such measures because they believe that it detracts from the game. Obviously, our table tends to disagree with that sentiment.

Anyways... Off the soap box, and apologies for the Preaching.

I hope you're enforcing those rules on the NPC mages too. That is, almost no F4 or higher spirits anywhere in the gameworld, as they'd inflict on average 6 DV worth of drain, compared to RAW's 2 DV (for just summoning it).

Force 5 would be rocking around 8 DV instead of 2 to 4.

Then you get to binding, binding a Force 4 would incur roughly 14 DV worth of drain (12 dice + Edge reroll) or 12 DV (12+Edge = 18). 14 DV worth of stun on the binding mage is good odds to knock them unconscious, not get the spirit bound, and instead it gets to roam free, uncontrolled.

Indeed we do... Which is why a Force 5/6 Spirit is a big deal in game. Additionally, the FEW spirits we have seen above Force 6 have been extremely memorable experiences, including the 1 (yep, only 1) instance where our mage summoned a Force 7 Spirit in the Zero Zone we were running at the time.

I still remember the Force 5 Spirit that inflicted 20 Drain on our poor Mage (Mage had a Magic of 6 at the time). It was Stun, but Still... 20 Drain.
Additionally, the Spirits are most definitely aspected towards whatever the Tradition the Mage is. It is a lot of work, but it is extremely fun and often entertaining to see the differences in Spirits, even from the same classification, dependant upon tradition.

Anyways...

Good man.

As long as we understand TJ's O-RAW is specifically used in his games I think we can move beyond it and back to the purview of this thread. To that end:

Fun with Free/Ally Spirits!

This should be required reading for anyone wanting to build a mage. Or anyone who can spend a few points on Negotiations and Arcana.