For tasers-and-spirits, sure. But a basic viewpoint of 'there's no logic in the whole game, because magic exists' is fundamentally bad. It means we can't care about grenades being realistically dangerous, or how fast the aircraft are (aren't), or the effects of known toxins. I'm just saying that it's better to handwave specific, clearly magical situations than to handwave the entire game.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 11 2011, 09:16 AM) 
For tasers-and-spirits, sure. But a basic viewpoint of 'there's no logic in the whole game, because magic exists' is fundamentally bad. It means we can't care about grenades being realistically dangerous, or how fast the aircraft are (aren't), or the effects of known toxins. I'm just saying that it's better to handwave specific, clearly magical situations than to handwave the entire game.
I can see that. Good Point. Thanks.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 11 2011, 10:16 AM)
...or the effects of known toxins.
I can't stand Black Mamba Venom from Running Wild. If it is only like 6 or 7P then how many doses are injected? One bite can realistically kill like 20 grown men.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 12 2011, 06:23 AM)
I can't stand Black Mamba Venom from Running Wild. If it is only like 6 or 7P then how many doses are injected? One bite can realistically kill like 20 grown men.
And most people bitten by one are not just bit once. That is one mean snake.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 12 2011, 09:23 AM)
I can't stand Black Mamba Venom from Running Wild. If it is only like 6 or 7P then how many doses are injected? One bite can realistically kill like 20 grown men.
Nature sometimes does overkill. So a bite injects many doses. Cognitive dissonance solved.
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Aug 12 2011, 07:35 AM)
Nature sometimes does overkill. So a bite injects many doses. Cognitive dissonance solved.
Indeed it does.
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Aug 12 2011, 09:35 AM)
Nature sometimes does overkill. So a bite injects many doses. Cognitive dissonance solved.
I understand, but it's not mentioned that way in the book.
Also, Platypus venom states it rarely kills someone but it's like 6S damage. Four doses would be lethal to a normal person.
Maybe there is some kind of convention in the SR universe. a 'dose' is built to do around 6S damage. From a platypus, it may be 10 ccs of active agent, whereas from a black mamba it could be 1 cc.
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Aug 13 2011, 08:46 AM)
Maybe there is some kind of convention in the SR universe. a 'dose' is built to do around 6S damage. From a platypus, it may be 10 ccs of active agent, whereas from a black mamba it could be 1 cc.
I have always seen it as such. Dose sizes are in relation to the toxin, after all, not a universal amount that is standardized across the board.
And, of course, that is a reason why the answer to "how many doses should I use to kill someone?" remains, as in nature, "all the doses. All of them." If you're trying to kill someone, you don't make it a narrow thing they might survive. In poison, like so many things, if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing. Ten doses, maybe?
But that's *expensive*. 
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 13 2011, 09:49 AM)
But that's *expensive*.
Especially when 2-3 will work just fine.
I'm a bit confuesed, though, how we ended up on Toxins and Dosage on a thread for Banishing. *shrug* oh well...
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 13 2011, 11:53 AM)
Especially when 2-3 will work just fine.
I'm a bit confuesed, though, how we ended up on Toxins and Dosage on a thread for Banishing. *shrug* oh well...
I'm a bit confuesed, though, how we ended up on Toxins and Dosage on a thread for Banishing. *shrug* oh well...
You ask this... on Dumpshock?
Because the world needs to know how many doses of ExLax one needs to make a great form earth elemental shit himself with fear . .
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 13 2011, 03:07 PM)
Because the world needs to know how many doses of ExLax one needs to make a great form earth elemental shit himself with fear . . bricks.
Fixed that for you.
Yeah, okay, i can live with that ^^
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Aug 13 2011, 12:54 PM)
You ask this... on Dumpshock?
It was rhetorical, but at least I got a few answers.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 13 2011, 02:54 PM)
It was rhetorical...
So was my comment.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 13 2011, 02:07 PM)
Because the world needs to know how many doses of ExLax one needs to make a great form earth elemental shit himself with fear . .
If you're dosing an earth elemental with exlax, i dont think you're gonna get bricks........
Mud?
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 13 2011, 10:53 AM)
I'm a bit confuesed, though, how we ended up on Toxins and Dosage on a thread for Banishing. *shrug* oh well...
Capsule Rounds with Narcoject or Slab make good Banishing alternatives also.
If we assume toxins work on them. And on vehicles. 
I was just trying to illustrate another way we could bring up toxins on a Banishment thread.
And it's completely RAW.
And it's completely RAW.
Yes, yes, we all know how you use the term 'RAW'. Back to your hole!
Back to your hole!
*Shrug* Using common sense to decide how to interpret, alter or ditch rules is also RAW. (SR4A, p. 60)
Mac: But our common sense is cheeky and fun!
Thorny: [referring to Farva] Yeah, and his common sense is cruel and tragic.
Foster: [after a pause] Which... makes them not really common sense at all.
Mac: [in a silly voice] Evil common sense!
Thorny: [referring to Farva] Yeah, and his common sense is cruel and tragic.
Foster: [after a pause] Which... makes them not really common sense at all.
Mac: [in a silly voice] Evil common sense!
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Aug 9 2011, 09:49 AM)
Everybody and his dog disses the Banishing Skill. But check this out:
On page 94 of Street Magic, under Attack of Will, it says, "The attack of will bypasses the spirit's Immunity to Normal Weapons and is otherwise resolved as a normal melee attack."
For the purposes of this attack form, spirits have no ItNW. So all they get to avoid damage is REA + Dodge and to resist damage is their WIL (ie. Force). Let's take a magician who is built to resist Drain with WIL + CHA, let's give her 5 in each, and has a Skill of 5 in Banishing. Banishing foci are limited to a spirit type, but cheap. I'll throw in one at F2 here, to allow the magician to have a couple available. Throw in a specialization, and the magician has a good spread of spirit types to get a bonus of 2 dice. An easy, ordinary build for 12 dice.
An attack of will from this magician will do base 5 DV augmented by net hits (no need for melee combat skills, MAG rating of the attacker is immaterial, no Drain, no armor to block the attack, no Counterspelling to block the attack, no Summoning Magician's MAG to block the attack, works full strength in background count while the spirit is weakened).
Yes, you can throw a high Force spirit at this magician that is too powerful. You can do that for any attack form. Every other attack form has at least one way the spirit's resistance can be bumped. This one doesn't.
On page 94 of Street Magic, under Attack of Will, it says, "The attack of will bypasses the spirit's Immunity to Normal Weapons and is otherwise resolved as a normal melee attack."
For the purposes of this attack form, spirits have no ItNW. So all they get to avoid damage is REA + Dodge and to resist damage is their WIL (ie. Force). Let's take a magician who is built to resist Drain with WIL + CHA, let's give her 5 in each, and has a Skill of 5 in Banishing. Banishing foci are limited to a spirit type, but cheap. I'll throw in one at F2 here, to allow the magician to have a couple available. Throw in a specialization, and the magician has a good spread of spirit types to get a bonus of 2 dice. An easy, ordinary build for 12 dice.
An attack of will from this magician will do base 5 DV augmented by net hits (no need for melee combat skills, MAG rating of the attacker is immaterial, no Drain, no armor to block the attack, no Counterspelling to block the attack, no Summoning Magician's MAG to block the attack, works full strength in background count while the spirit is weakened).
Yes, you can throw a high Force spirit at this magician that is too powerful. You can do that for any attack form. Every other attack form has at least one way the spirit's resistance can be bumped. This one doesn't.
I know it's probably already been brought up by this point in the thread (I was lazy and didn't read past the OP) but a Force 5 Spirit of Fire, not exactly the "big leagues", has a melee defense pool of 13 to throw against the attack of will even hitting.
Quick Edit:
*looks at last page of thread*
And I'm glad I didn't.
Say what you want about how effective they are or aren't, but I think attacks of will are pretty cool.
My roommate is currently playing a spirit punching detective. The key ingredients for spirit punching were as follows:
Banishing 4 with a specialization in attacks of will
Willpower 5
Charisma 5 (hes only human)
level 3 in Kiai martial art
increase willpower spell
increase charisma spell
So he boosts up his willpower and charisma (ideally by 4 each) with the spells. And so long as he goes in astral, the WP boost counteracts the penalties for sustaining the spells. Then he finds a spirit, and falcon punches it with 11 or so dice (I don't remember the exact numbers). While thats certainly not amazing, he only needs 1 net. Cause his base damage is 12 or so, due to the enhanced charisma and the +3 from the spirit shout martial art.
In our last session, he took out a force 5 spirit of man in one punch, then proceeded to beat the tar out of its controlling magician in astral combat.
Now, its definitely not the most amazing or efficient thing ever. In fact, its rather costly for what it does. BUT, it IS totally awesome.
My roommate is currently playing a spirit punching detective. The key ingredients for spirit punching were as follows:
Banishing 4 with a specialization in attacks of will
Willpower 5
Charisma 5 (hes only human)
level 3 in Kiai martial art
increase willpower spell
increase charisma spell
So he boosts up his willpower and charisma (ideally by 4 each) with the spells. And so long as he goes in astral, the WP boost counteracts the penalties for sustaining the spells. Then he finds a spirit, and falcon punches it with 11 or so dice (I don't remember the exact numbers). While thats certainly not amazing, he only needs 1 net. Cause his base damage is 12 or so, due to the enhanced charisma and the +3 from the spirit shout martial art.
In our last session, he took out a force 5 spirit of man in one punch, then proceeded to beat the tar out of its controlling magician in astral combat.
Now, its definitely not the most amazing or efficient thing ever. In fact, its rather costly for what it does. BUT, it IS totally awesome.
That's not so much "Attacks of Will are good" as it is "he built a character to do Attacks of Will." A F5 spirit isn't even dangerous to most people. Hell, our gunbunny shot a F7 spirit of man to death in a single pass (hold out pistol + stick n' shock, his first simple action left it with 9 boxes of stun).
It's kind of like Monks in D&D: it wouldn't be a trap if it weren't for every other class ever.
It's kind of like Monks in D&D: it wouldn't be a trap if it weren't for every other class ever.
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