We came across a couple of those 'not-covered-by-the-rules' situations in our last game session, all having to deal with a new character. I'm looking for rules clarifications that we may have missed, or some advice on how your groups would handle them.
The character concept: A Fox-Shapeshifter-Shaman, initiate level 2, Charisma 8, focused completely on summoning (only one spell...improved invisibility).
The situations:
1) The shaman summoned 8 force 4 great form city spirits to aid in attacking a convoy, consisting of a semi (rigger and passenger, who turned out to be a non-combatant), and 2 chase/lead cars (with 4 sammies each). Said shaman sicced the city spirits on the sammies (say that 5 times fast...) , 4 to a car, and ordered them all to use their 'fear' powers. Each spirit only got a few successes (1 or 2), which the sammies could have probably ignored in a one-on-one situation. However, we convinced the GM that the effects should stack - which gave each sammie the equivalent of 6 successes on the fear attack (net 4 after resistance), which sent them all running for the hills.
2) The team is extracting a scientist's wife from a corporate gated community. There's only one exit, and the corporate security force that was watching her has their surveillance van parked in front of it, cross-wise to block the way out. Shaman summons a force 10 city spirit, and orders it to push the van out of the way. I'm not sure what metric the GM used, but I think he pitted the spirit's strength against the body/armor total of the van. The spirit got a net 2 successes a round, which the GM applied as 1 meter/success that the van was moved, which got it out of the way just in time for the team to come roaring out in our getaway car.
What do you think? Was the GM too lenient in these specific tests, or is there some obscure rule that we should have applied?
Full Version: Spirit-Foo
1) Too lenient, though I personally think you have one Hell of a charismatic shaman.
2) Not sure. Pushing a vehicle out of the way is a weird one.
2) Not sure. Pushing a vehicle out of the way is a weird one.
| QUOTE (Just Pete) |
| However, we convinced the GM that the effects should stack - which gave each sammie the equivalent of 6 successes on the fear attack (net 4 after resistance), which sent them all running for the hills. |
Incorrect call, in my opinion. Since the spirits each made seperate uses of their fear ability there should have been individual reistance tests. Perhaps stepped target numbers after the first , but I would definately not have gone for just one test.
-Wolf
Our reasoning was that the spirits were making a concerted effort - you know, kind of like 4 ghosts being scarier than just 1.
What do you mean by stepped target numbers? Can you give an example?
What do you mean by stepped target numbers? Can you give an example?
Spirit Powers do not stack - onlythe highest rated power applies.
i.e. 3 force four spirits using their confusion power on one person does not give them a target number modifier of 12. Their highest target number modifier is +4.
i.e. 3 force four spirits using their confusion power on one person does not give them a target number modifier of 12. Their highest target number modifier is +4.
Yeah, what you had there was four spirits trying to be scary and failing.
A more reasonable ruling would be to do something similar to having another charachter help you with a skill test. So maybe make just one roll at lowest force + 1die per additional spirit, something like ritual sorcery. So each group of spirits would roll 4+1+1+1 dice, and each sam would resist with a t# of 4. On the other handit seems like it ought to be harder to scare four sam's than one as well so maybe one should not even be that nice.
A force 10 city spirit has 8 strength. I might say enough to roll a regular van, but not an armored one. But maybe it rolled really well or something. There are some rules about strength tests, and maybe some about vehicle weights.
A more reasonable ruling would be to do something similar to having another charachter help you with a skill test. So maybe make just one roll at lowest force + 1die per additional spirit, something like ritual sorcery. So each group of spirits would roll 4+1+1+1 dice, and each sam would resist with a t# of 4. On the other handit seems like it ought to be harder to scare four sam's than one as well so maybe one should not even be that nice.
A force 10 city spirit has 8 strength. I might say enough to roll a regular van, but not an armored one. But maybe it rolled really well or something. There are some rules about strength tests, and maybe some about vehicle weights.
Why did you need to scare the sammies at all? I would've thought that all you'd have to do would be to scare the drivers, who would then drive away like bats out of hell, taking the sammies with them. The only choice the sammies would have is whether to
Having a single (non-invoked) force 8 would be way better than 4 invoked force 4s for this sort of thing.
- jump out
- kill the driver and take over [which would just allow the spirit to repeat the process]
- let the driver take them away
Having a single (non-invoked) force 8 would be way better than 4 invoked force 4s for this sort of thing.
Personally I'd let the city spirit use its movement power on the security van. It makes an essence test against a TN2 and adds the vehicles acceleration rating to its movement rate for the next combat turn... Hey-presto: The van is out of the way and moving at 24m/combat turn.
OK: You might want to make the test more difficult if the vehicle has its handbrake on but the concept is still there.
OK: You might want to make the test more difficult if the vehicle has its handbrake on but the concept is still there.
| QUOTE |
| Spirit Powers do not stack - onlythe highest rated power applies. |
ShadowGhost - Got a book and page number for that rule? You seem pretty emphatic about it.
| QUOTE |
| Why did you need to scare the sammies at all? I would've thought that all you'd have to do would be to scare the drivers... |
Three reasons: first, the Shaman was playing his character to the hilt. She was supposed to be new to the city, and very naive, thus not really knowing how cars work, and what role the driver has. She'd really been around a bit more than that would imply, but it was a stress situation, and she reacted more by instinct than by plan. Second, we had already brought the convoy to a stop, so we couldn't be sure that the drivers would take off vs. jumping out - which brings up the last reason - the GM ruled that they all jumped out and ran.
I like Rev's thinking about how to stack the dice - but I have to point out that the fear power can target more than one person in the area of effect, so each sammie was being targeted by four spirits, whereas each spirit only had to make one opposed test.
Think of it like this - if a character takes 4 medium wounds, they're pretty much dead. Each wound stacks. Why wouldn't the effects of the fear powers on the psyche stack as well? Assuming that a person wouldn't run screaming into the night until they'd accumulated the equivalent of a 'deadly fear level', couldn't the cumulative power of the four spirits work towards that end?
| QUOTE |
| Personally I'd let the city spirit use its movement power on the security van |
That was our original concept - the Shaman did command the movement power. The GM used the test mentioned above to determine how much it moved, considering that this power is generally used to /aid/ movement, rather than /force/ it. Sorry about leaving out that tidbit.
| QUOTE |
| Think of it like this - if a character takes 4 medium wounds, they're pretty much dead. Each wound stacks. Why wouldn't the effects of the fear powers on the psyche stack as well? Assuming that a person wouldn't run screaming into the night until they'd accumulated the equivalent of a 'deadly fear level', couldn't the cumulative power of the four spirits work towards that end? |
So... if I and three others cast Increased Reaction 4 times on the same character, the effects should stack? I don't think so. Try using four different powers, Confusion + Fear + Concealment + Movement. Those effects would stack.
| QUOTE |
| So... if I and three others cast Increased Reaction 4 times on the same character, the effects should stack? I don't think so. Try using four different powers, Confusion + Fear + Concealment + Movement. Those effects would stack. |
But if you and three others cast mana bolt, each causing a medium wound on one target, the poor sap is just as dead. I guess this puts the distinction on treating mental states as 'woundable' or not.
Exactly! The powers are not doing "permanent" "damage." They are a sustained "effect." They don't stack.
Conceal the spirits, Confuse the crowd, add the Fear... watch the van go and speed it along.
Conceal the spirits, Confuse the crowd, add the Fear... watch the van go and speed it along.
Here's a thought... is it possible to Channel more than one spirit at once?
If so, I could see stacking the powers "internally" and then unleashing a more powerful Fear.
If so, I could see stacking the powers "internally" and then unleashing a more powerful Fear.
| QUOTE (Just Pete @ Mar 31 2004, 04:49 AM) | ||
That was our original concept - the Shaman did command the movement power. The GM used the test mentioned above to determine how much it moved, considering that this power is generally used to /aid/ movement, rather than /force/ it. Sorry about leaving out that tidbit. |
Exactly. Movement multiples the acceleration rate. The vehicle still needs to initiate the movement itself, or have something else try to move it. The idea that a jostle that you'd normally get from Str-8 trying to move a armoured van turning into a 1m movement due to increased acceleration is an intreging concept. But i think it would require the spirit to do 2 things at once, no?
EDIT: Oh, on the first one. No way would I have allowed that.
"The sammies weren't scared off!"
"Guess we need a bigger spirit."
| QUOTE (Just Pete) |
| However, we convinced the GM that the effects should stack - which gave each sammie the equivalent of 6 successes on the fear attack (net 4 after resistance), which sent them all running for the hills. |
If the game was fun and flowed well, then the GM made the right call. Especially if said GM did not know the exact ruling or where to find it quickly (I hate long stops in game, they usually kill the mood). However, the GM should not let the players gang up and walk over him, then they will try it every time there is a rules issue or something new is tried.
next time, use Confusion. it's a much more dependable power.
| QUOTE (Rev) |
| On the other hand, it seems like it ought to be harder to scare four sam's than one as well so maybe one should not even be that nice. |
Hmm... If it had been a normal intimidation test, I would have agreed. As it is, I suppose there would be presure not to run. But as soon as one runs, negative modifiers and re-rolls to all the others. I would definitely rule that even one sammie running would break the resolve of the others...
Also, I would have four resistance tests and use the bonus for multiple attackers.
((And I would be very happy as a GM to fudge the fear test just for the good idea. Non-violent resolution with little to no chance of being caught...? That is why I play Shadowrun!))
| QUOTE (Just Pete) |
| But if you and three others cast mana bolt, each causing a medium wound on one target, the poor sap is just as dead. |
But if you and three others cast Manabolt and the target resisted each one, then just because he resisted 4 manabolts doesn't mean he takes some damage.
If each sammy resisted the 4 uses of the fear power (whihc you seem to imply), then they shouldn't be affected at all.
Where does it say that movement must be used to affect initial movement and can't be used to start it off? Although the power may often be used to alter movement on metahumans (which it can't make move) , the rules quite clearly describe how the power works on vehicles as an acceleration or deceleration test.
One nasty idea is to get a single powerful wind spirit or similar using its movement power to slow an aircraft below its stall speed...
One nasty idea is to get a single powerful wind spirit or similar using its movement power to slow an aircraft below its stall speed...
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| ... the rules quite clearly describe how the power works on vehicles as an acceleration or deceleration test. |
Oh, i see it can be read that way. If treat the first paragraph as not having anything at all to do with vehicles. Even reading that way, trying to move a vehicle counter to it's normal movement (wheels rolling instead of sliding sideways) wouldn't seem to make sense to work.
I agree that making a vehicle move against where its wheels are pointing dosen't make sense, but in this case the van is parked side-on to the exit.
As for ignoring the first paragraph: Yes, that's because they aren't the rules for using the movement power on vehicles, or rather they are subsumed by the second paragraph which describes how movement works on vehicles.
As for ignoring the first paragraph: Yes, that's because they aren't the rules for using the movement power on vehicles, or rather they are subsumed by the second paragraph which describes how movement works on vehicles.
| QUOTE (DigitalMage) | ||
But if you and three others cast Manabolt and the target resisted each one, then just because he resisted 4 manabolts doesn't mean he takes some damage. |
Exactly, a much closer analogy than the one just pete used would be that six people cast manabolt Light at someone with one net success each so the person took a deadly wound (light staged up by six succeesses) instead of six lights.
I don't think there are any group tests that work that way in shadowrun.
| QUOTE |
| But if you and three others cast mana bolt, each causing a medium wound on one target, the poor sap is just as dead. |
In this scenario, I get to resist each of the mana bolts individually using my full willpower. So if it's four mages casting a force 4 manabolt (moderate damage) using their maximum sorcery + spell pool dice (10 dice total), and I've got willpower 6, they'll average 1-2 successes, and I'll average 3 successes on each roll. Since I got more successes each time than they did I take no damage at all.
In comparison, if only one mage cast a force 6 manabolt at me with all their available dice (12), on average he'll get 2 successes, while I'll only get one, and I'll end up taking a moderate wound.
It seems like the only time ganging up on opponents works is in melee combat. (reference the physad vs girlscouts thread in Defense vs Astral Weenies )
| QUOTE (Just Pete @ Mar 31 2004, 04:49 AM) | ||
ShadowGhost - Got a book and page number for that rule? You seem pretty emphatic about it. |
Wish I could find it now, but I'm damn sure it's the same with spells combinations - the same powers do not stack. However different powers will still add modifiers - i.e. Fear and Confusion will each add their respective TN mods to anything a character does.
Otherwise, with 3 force 6 spirits using the power of Movement, and a quickness of 6, a character could run:
(Quickness)6 x 6 x 6 x 6 x 3 (Running multiplier) m. per combat turn.
That's 3.888 km every 3 seconds, or roughly 4,665.6 km per hour.
and if you add in Athletics to run faster, it gets silly
| QUOTE |
| Otherwise, with 3 force 6 spirits using the power of Movement, and a quickness of 6, a character could run: (Quickness)6 x 6 x 6 x 6 x 3 (Running multiplier) m. per combat turn. That's 3.888 km every 3 seconds, or roughly 4,665.6 km per hour. |
Hoooah!
Do that as the NPCs are running away and have one spirit then use Accident, and he'd be nothing but 2 KM long red smear on the road.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Here's a thought... is it possible to Channel more than one spirit at once? If so, I could see stacking the powers "internally" and then unleashing a more powerful Fear. |
How is that different from summoning a higher force spirit?
| QUOTE |
| Here's a thought... is it possible to Channel more than one spirit at once? If so, I could see stacking the powers "internally" and then unleashing a more powerful Fear. |
As a GM, I'd say 'no way'. I'd look at that as an attempt to get higher force powers without paying higher drain penalties.
If I try to channel a force 6 spirit, I'll have to deal with 12Dphysical drain when my channeling time's done. But if I was allowed to channel two force 3 spirits, I'd only take 6Mstun channeling drain for each.
Not quite, It'd be 6D Stun and 2*3D Stun, but your point still stands.
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