Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Ghost Cartels
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4
Fatum
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 22 2011, 09:33 PM) *
So... So can the Sam. Assuming he is competant.
A competent sammy can shoot people and make them resist his good attribute+good skill+bonuses attacks with a single weak attribute? Without armour having any place in the equation? As far as an eye can see, without weapons or ammo?
I'd like to see the build, please.
UmaroVI
Take a look at the Archetypes (link in Sig). Mages do have some advantages over street samurai. However, straight-up single combat is not one of them. They cannot get initiative or defenses on par with a street samurai without making large sacrifices somewhere else; in a "run into each other in a dark alley" situation, a street sam will wipe the floor with a mage by virtue of going first in an offense-favored game.

This is not to say Mages can't be good at combat - what they bring that Street Samurai don't is (a) AE attacks much better than anything anyone else ever gets, and (b) spirits.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Aug 22 2011, 02:26 PM) *
Take a look at the Archetypes (link in Sig). Mages do have some advantages over street samurai. However, straight-up single combat is not one of them. They cannot get initiative or defenses on par with a street samurai without making large sacrifices somewhere else; in a "run into each other in a dark alley" situation, a street sam will wipe the floor with a mage by virtue of going first in an offense-favored game.

This is not to say Mages can't be good at combat - what they bring that Street Samurai don't is (a) AE attacks much better than anything anyone else ever gets, and (b) spirits.


Thank you, You make my point better than I can.
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 22 2011, 03:20 PM) *
I'm sure that this time the "magic v. mundane" argument will be well and truly settled!



Personally I think it's pretty well settled, just some folks in fairly hideous denial. The case usually goes to "If circumstances are just right" (dark ally, no prep, sniper rifle, drone etc etc) the sammy is equal or better then an equivalent build mage. In all other cases the mage takes it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 22 2011, 03:21 PM) *
Personally I think it's pretty well settled, just some folks in fairly hideous denial. The case usually goes to "If circumstances are just right" (dark ally, no prep, sniper rifle, drone etc etc) the sammy is equal or better then an equivalent build mage. In all other cases the mage takes it.


Unfortunately, that is not how it always works out in play... It is great for a white room comparison, but no where else really.
Critias
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 22 2011, 05:21 PM) *
Personally I think it's pretty well settled...

Of course you do. So do the people arguing the other side. That's why the argument keeps going, instead of folks ever just dropping it. wink.gif
Fatum
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Aug 23 2011, 01:26 AM) *
Take a look at the Archetypes (link in Sig). Mages do have some advantages over street samurai. However, straight-up single combat is not one of them. They cannot get initiative or defenses on par with a street samurai without making large sacrifices somewhere else; in a "run into each other in a dark alley" situation, a street sam will wipe the floor with a mage by virtue of going first in an offense-favored game.
It's not like mages have spells specifically for upping init count or defences, and of course sammies can totally turn invisible just like mages can!
Grinder
Back to topic, please.
QUOTE
Ghost Cartels, ...are they completely nuts?
Angelone
I honestly loved Ghost Cartels, and found nothing insane about it. The Yama King was tough but not impossible. It's a campaign for more experienced teams so tough opposition is to be expected.
Machiavelli
Obviously, our definitions about what an "experiences runner" might be, differ a lot.^^
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Aug 23 2011, 09:52 AM) *
Obviously, our definitions about what an "experiences runner" might be, differ a lot.^^


Doesn't it always? smile.gif
Machiavelli
WELCOME TO SHADOWRUN^^
Cain
Force 9 spirits can definitely be beat, even by conventional weapons. Unconventionally, there's still a lot you can do. I like the idea of making a deal with the devil the most; setting Hell as Death Valley was a lot of fun.
Redjack
QUOTE (Adarael @ Aug 22 2011, 03:26 PM) *
Why the hell doesn't dumpshock have a thumbs-up feature yet? wink.gif
One of the features in the upgraded forum software we are looking at is a rating system for topics as well as a reputation system for users.
CanRay
I give me fifteen seconds before I'm banned from the forum for life. nyahnyah.gif
Redjack
Are you suggesting additional motivation for the upgrade? nyahnyah.gif
Grinder
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 24 2011, 04:13 AM) *
I give me fifteen seconds before I'm banned from the forum for life. nyahnyah.gif


You're doing fine on the official boards, despite their reputation system, don't you? grinbig.gif
TheWanderingJewels
I stated out a rather modestly powerful Great Spirit form of a nasty nasty spirit elsewhere on the forums (think horror construct) as the final 'boss' for players to deal with after about 5 sessions of tracking down. It was only one of them, but I played it very smart, very sneaky, and played up all the horror tropes as much as I could before the met the thing. Players were pretty chewed by the time they got to it and only thought a large combination of luck, blown edge, and quick thinking did they live through it. My players still kinda twitch when they refer to that run. wasn't even force 9.

Force 9 spirits are very nasty customers. I put the players through ghost cartels through everything the thing could throw at them. Geeked two along the way and the rest were a mess....for some reason the doing like nature spirits.

Short form: spirits when used properly can make characters lives hell
CanRay
QUOTE (Grinder @ Aug 23 2011, 11:04 PM) *
You're doing fine on the official boards, despite their reputation system, don't you? grinbig.gif
And it confuses me all the more every day.

Also, I need to get Ghost Cartels.
Fatum
QUOTE (Redjack @ Aug 24 2011, 04:33 AM) *
One of the features in the upgraded forum software we are looking at is a rating system for topics as well as a reputation system for users.
Uh, isn't there a reputation system in place already? That thing with the stars in the member profiles?
Redjack
QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 24 2011, 01:49 AM) *
Uh, isn't there a reputation system on place already? That thing with the stars in the member profiles?
Yes, there is for users already; Late night. I was focusing on the topic rating and should have stuck with that.
Machiavelli
...to get back to the topic: what could i offer the yama-king as a pact? Give me some solutions please. Doesnīt he need to have the spirit pact power to agree with one?
Cain
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Aug 24 2011, 06:17 AM) *
...to get back to the topic: what could i offer the yama-king as a pact? Give me some solutions please. Doesnīt he need to have the spirit pact power to agree with one?

You can give him that ability, especially since it doesn't affect his combat stats much. In my second run-through, he said if each PC slaughtered ten helpless victims in his name, he'd do a 24-hour pact for them and let them go free. They didn't take it (two were undercover cops, after all) and so I gave him Astral Gateway instead, sending them to Hell to battle the Master Shedim on his home plane.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Aug 24 2011, 10:17 AM) *
...to get back to the topic: what could i offer the yama-king as a pact? Give me some solutions please. Doesnīt he need to have the spirit pact power to agree with one?


Typically, yes, he does. But I think a lenient GM, might modify the Yama King to have such a pact, if you offer enough. The suggestions are in SM 107, Free Spirits and Karma. As the heading of the section says, Karma would be your best bet, but at force 9, almost anything you offer will not be good enough.
Dreadlord
In my opinion, it doesn't even need to be as formal as a pact, but just a negotiated bargain as with any other NPC. After all, the Yama King has the strongest position, since all he needs to offer is "I let you live". At that point you have to come up with something the Yama King wants (such as chaos, death, destruction, murder). Then you roll the dice and see if you can pornomance the Yama King (that would be worth extra karma in my game!). If he doesn't like the bargain, then you need to RUN LIKE HELL!
Ascalaphus
He doesn't really need any specific power for a pact. You just offer to do whatever he wants, and if you don't live up to it, he'll come and get you when it's least convenient.
last_of_the_great_mikeys
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Aug 18 2011, 02:46 AM) *
How did you do that? Attack of will is solved Willpower+Banishing. I donīt think that your mundane elf owns the banishing skill and even if you have a lot of edge, you could have max. 12 dices for this attack. The yama king is force 9. This means 18 dices unarmed combat, even if he lacks the armor....how should that work? Did you talk away his dice?^^



Basically, I got really lucky on dice rolls and the GM sucked on them. Never seen like like that before or since.

Very experienced elf, willpower 7 (due to bioware/genetech stuff and karma), Edge of 7 (due to lucky quality) and charisma of 8. I used every bit of Edge I had in that fight, fully expecting to die. I'm one of those "never concede and force the GM to play out the fight" kinda guys.
Machiavelli
Hail to the king baby.^^ In a situation like this, you anyway donīt have another solution that going full throttle. I will be playing again tomorrow and will let you know what happened. wink.gif
Machiavelli
Hi Folks. Didnīt manage to get the whole group together until yesterday so it took us a little longer than expected to go on. Despite all preparations and your help it turned out like expected. The GM let me have the first shot and i managed 6 successes at a force 6 stunbolt. The Yama-king blocked it completely and used his elemental attack on me. Unfortunately the GM didnīt check out what this could cause and so 9P -half impact armor with 7 successes were flying towards my body. In addition i sucked at dodging with 2 successes (no edge left) and got killed. After the run the GM agreed that the authors didnīt realize the power of the enemies in this book.^^ I survived (as an apology) but with a mental handicap. It could have come worse. ^^
Elfenlied
Wait a second... after all this, your DM still doesn't realize that essentially his house rules have cheated you guys out of victory?
Machiavelli
No, i wouldnīt call him stubborn, but he is one of the guys that holds up the book, pointing at a specific page saying "it is not my fault that you all died, the book said so". Err....yeah. I know.

I took 14P damage with body 3. He was grateful enough to let an NPC put a traumapatch on me within the 9 seconds left that i could survive without bleeding to death AND i was allowed to make the following stabilization-test with my "increase body"-spell that was previously neglected by the background count. As is said "i have no problem losing a char. but not necessarily a 180-karma-char" helped a little bit.^^
Dreadlord
Awwww... I really wanted to hear that you now serve a new master, with 345 more souls left to bring before the Yama King... devil.gif

Of course, I have been known to offer dark bargains with my players before, just to see which side of the moral knife blade they fall. MUHAHAHAHAHAH!!! The mage player barely chose the "good" path when threatened and cajoled by Aapep (Apophis). His moral quandary made for a great session, as he weighed the life of his teammates (and himself) versus his own moral code. He chose to stick to his code, no matter what. Very impressive for a shadowrunner who shoots people in the face for money!

Sorry it didn't work out for you. My GC game is not that far along yet, but in reading ahead as the GM, I am concerned that my players may TPK against the Yama King as well. I am not above fudging like crazy as a GM, though, so whatever makes for a better story will be what I go with.

Instakilling a player is not what I would have chosen, though.

Machiavelli
QUOTE (Dreadlord @ Sep 13 2011, 09:52 PM) *
Awwww... I really wanted to hear that you now serve a new master, with 345 more souls left to bring before the Yama King... devil.gif

Of course, I have been known to offer dark bargains with my players before, just to see which side of the moral knife blade they fall. MUHAHAHAHAHAH!!! The mage player barely chose the "good" path when threatened and cajoled by Aapep (Apophis). His moral quandary made for a great session, as he weighed the life of his teammates (and himself) versus his own moral code. He chose to stick to his code, no matter what. Very impressive for a shadowrunner who shoots people in the face for money!

Sorry it didn't work out for you. My GC game is not that far along yet, but in reading ahead as the GM, I am concerned that my players may TPK against the Yama King as well. I am not above fudging like crazy as a GM, though, so whatever makes for a better story will be what I go with.

Instakilling a player is not what I would have chosen, though.

Yeah, i think my fellow players also would have seen me like that, but because i play a black mage with dark mother as mentor spirit, i would have killed the people for free.^^ My GM already experienced me dropping ork-children into helicopter rotors to save the team, so he wouldnīt put me in such a situation. wink.gif He also doesnīt want me to become a super-char. again and therefore he wouldnīt offer me such a pact easily. The instakill on the other hand, was because he didnīt checked the rules properly. It was nasty and a useless experience, but afterwards i really have to say that all the discussions here on dumpshock helped a lot. Because of...

1) I still have the option of fearing an overpowered enemy away by intimidation (i want to keep this way as a surprise-tactic)
2) Because the opposition was so damn strong, i announced that i have to become a super-char. again to survive his adventures.^^

This adventure put the level of threat a little higher in our runs, so maybe his tolerance for being "uber" also raised a little bit.^^

Thanks for your help dumpshockers.
The Wrestling Troll
In our Team the sniper took out the yama-king with his barret using APDS ammunition.
He had a crazy luck with his dices and managed to crack that itnw and kill him smile.gif

But I agree that the ghost cartel mission is .... kinda crazy sometimes nyahnyah.gif
My mage had a hell of a fight on that ship with the shedims! Luckily I was paranoid enough (the quest is named GHOST cartels nyahnyah.gif ) to buy the spell "slaughter spirits" and that gave me the edge I needed to Overcast F12 AOE-Blast the shit out of the shedims hehe

But if you think you've seen the worst of ghost cartels yet ..... just you wait biggrin.gif
Btw. do you play the european version that has the extra eurotrip in it? Europe .... I hated it so much -_-
The Wrestling Troll
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Aug 24 2011, 02:17 PM) *
...to get back to the topic: what could i offer the yama-king as a pact? Give me some solutions please. Doesnīt he need to have the spirit pact power to agree with one?


Free Spirits are Karma-Whores .... let them pay a toll to cross his path unharmed smile.gif
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Makki @ Aug 15 2011, 12:14 PM) *
their are lot's of heroic stories about the yama king. Again, you're not alone against him. therer are hundreds of gang grunts invading the complex across the roofs so, he will be interested in their hopeless souls, too. I banished him with two Edge-boosted attempts, btw.


That about sums up how my players killed it. Full auto burst and 16 successes due to edge. I think he was really supposed to just press the point that the PC's should leave. However theres the old problem that it has stats, so you can kill it.
Dr.Rockso
Woo! Thread-omancy!
Sir_Psycho
Wouldn't willie pete burn Kowloon to the ground?

Advice time is passed, so now it's hypothetical. I'd definately try and disengage from a fight with a named free spirit. A good use of athletics and three dimensional thinking would help, you're on the rooftops of the Kowloon slums. Open balconies, low construction material ratings to shoot (ex-ex, you say?)/charge through, lots of places to break line of sight. I've never played Ghost Cartels, and only skimmed through a few encounters, but I did notice that the opposition is designed for high karma players, or a team of 5+ regular runners.

Does it really specify that the helicopter's assault cannon can't hurt the Yama King? That's really funny to read against a thread that could be called "The Yama King, or: How I killed Deathfuck the oriental terror with my anti-rapist tazer".
Cain
QUOTE
Does it really specify that the helicopter's assault cannon can't hurt the Yama King? That's really funny to read against a thread that could be called "The Yama King, or: How I killed Deathfuck the oriental terror with my anti-rapist tazer".

It doesn't specify, but a force 9 spirit has ItNW at 18. So, an assault cannon isn't likely to hurt it at all. Remember, full-auto doesn't help, so only scoring butt-tons of successes gives you any change... and given that the spirit will be defending, getting those successes won't be easy.
Halinn
QUOTE (Cain @ May 11 2012, 12:19 PM) *
It doesn't specify, but a force 9 spirit has ItNW at 18. So, an assault cannon isn't likely to hurt it at all. Remember, full-auto doesn't help, so only scoring butt-tons of successes gives you any change... and given that the spirit will be defending, getting those successes won't be easy.

The Panther XXL is 10P with -5 AP, so only 3 net successes to wound it pretty badly. That seems doable.
Machiavelli
He has more than 18 dice for dodging and even if this fails, he still has body 9 plus 18 dice armor. Killing this thing according to the rules is nearly impossible. "have killed him with autofire".....i donīt know, sounds like heavy abuse of edge-rules and maybe some kind of house-ruling.

And donīt even think about banishing a free spirit that automatically has banishing resistance.
Shortstraw
The people I play with like meat grinders so a character dying is normal and players killing each other by accident is considered rather funny. As for intentional killing we are longterm friends so it has only come up once when my old geezer refused to let them kill a prisoner.
Sir_Psycho
Sometimes you've got to throw down and roll initiative against your own buds. I've told this story at least twice on DS before, but during a SR3 run in which we had to break into a politician's house and intimidate him into leaving office. The ork samurai who went upstairs to find the target hadn't taken unarmed combat during creation, he only had cyber-implant weapons (spurs) and edged weapons (katana), and after three failed defaulting attempts, the player said "Fuck it, I stab him with my spur". I requested a hearing perception test to see if I heard the commotion, succeeded and ran upstairs to stop him. I had my character yell at him, but his player just smiled and tried to stab the poli. Despite being an elven covert ops specialist, I had invested in unarmed and tackled him to the ground. We had both given each other a few boxes of stun damage (Yeah, he finally succeeded on the default) before the GM rolled perception for us and we noticed the target had made a runner.
Shortstraw
I drew a high-powered elephant rifle on mine.
Halinn
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ May 12 2012, 11:05 AM) *
He has more than 18 dice for dodging and even if this fails, he still has body 9 plus 18 dice armor. Killing this thing according to the rules is nearly impossible. "have killed him with autofire".....i donīt know, sounds like heavy abuse of edge-rules and maybe some kind of house-ruling.


If you can catch him when he isn't actively dodging, then use your ~20 dice (you dirty munchkin you) and a point of edge on that lovely cannon shot, he should be down for the count.
Angelone
Adept welded monowhip weapon foci to the face is how he went down for us iirc. We were mage and spirit heavy though so we would have got him eventually.
KarmaInferno
Personally, I think the cyborgs in the book might be harder to kill.



-k
Angelone
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ May 12 2012, 04:32 PM) *
Personally, I think the cyborgs in the book might be harder to kill.



-k


I agree, those things are tough, fast, blend in with the other grunts, and the +2 on all tests from the hotsim doesn't hurt either.
KarmaInferno
Also, walking around with more vehicular armor than some military grade vehicles, all concealed, then stacking regular armor on top of that. And then being immune to stun from the soaked hits, so the normal anti-heavy-armor tactic of racking up stun damage is useless.



-k
Angelone
That too, I don't remember fighting them. I think we may have just pulled out of that fight, luckily they're not equipped with anything too deadly so running is an option.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012