First off I'd like to thank everyone for their answers and comments. you guys have helped me out a lot and i appreciate it.

for my next noob question autosofts. The way i read the book you must purchase a copy of each autosoft for each drone you wish to load it on to. For example if i want Clearsight 4 on 3 different drones then i need to purchase 3 copies of Clearsight 4. the confusion comes when i look at the premade rigger in the sr4 book. He has no autosofts loaded into his drones, they are loaded on his commlink and he only has one copy of each autosoft.

Which way is correct? Can i purchase one copy of each autosoft i wish (as long as they are all the same rating) and load that autosoft into as many drones as i want? or do i need to purchase autosofts for each drone?

thanks again for the help guys.

And what about softs that interact.. ie Tacsoft. Can I buy one copy of Tacsoft 1 and load it onto my Optic-X and a Fly-Spy and my commlink and get its bonuses?

Autosofts are Software like any other, so come with Copy Protection out of the box. Removing that is a trivial matter of taking some time for any hacker worth his salt. Copying them to any and all drones they're needed on is a done deal after that. Note potential issues with Registration as well.
Alternatively, pirated softs are cheap, come without Copy Protection and Registration, but degrade.

This is if your table incorporates Unwired Software rules. Otherwise, just the first point holds.

Drones can, and often are quite valuable members of a Tacnet team. Even just strapped to you, they can trick you out well.
Do look up how Sensor rating for drones and Sensor channels for a Tacnet work.

*nodnod* Drones can only contribute their Sensor rating in channels. I'm asuming from your above answer that I have to buy Tacsoft 1 three times then.

Unless you find your way around dealing with the Copy Protection issue: yes.

Also, tricking your drones out with higher sensor ratings is well worth the investment to get a better Tacnet rolling.

Yeah, the actual character has the sensors defiined in the write up and paid for so his optic x flying turret and the flyspy tacsoft buddy both have rating 6 sensors.

No. You can do a Centralized TacNet, page 125, Unwired.

Ah. Yes.
I tend to forget about that one.

Also, don't forget to get your Freeware! Free r4 TacSoft for everyone!

Now comes the fun part. A teammate can slave his commlink to a Technomancers Living Persona, and the TM can set up a Centralized TacNet with his Tacsoft Complex Form.. but will it be usable by the teammate?

I'd like to see where it says you can do a TacNet CF. You need the computational power of a Smartgun Link to compile into a Smartlink CF, so I'd imagine that a TacNet can't funtion without either: 1) Running it off a Commlink, or 2) Having a near-comatose TM.


EDIT: Now you could have the Central TacNet slaved to the TM...

A TM can Emulate pretty much any piece of Software that's functional on its own.
Tacsoft is Software that's functional on its own.
A TM's bionode equals a comlink for all intents and purposes. Given proper mental attributes, they tend to outclass them. Imposing said restrictions on them would be silly. If it doesn't bog your 'link down unduly, it shouldn't do so to your TM.

Ok then. Get a TacNet CF at rating 2... then Thread it to 7 or higher.

Still need to fulfil the minimum sensor channels and members, but yeah, it can be insane.

Personally I do not allow a threaded tacsoft to out strip regular tacsoft ratings, and even then there is the sensor channel and participant requirement. Your millage may vary of course.

We treat the Tacsoft much like an Active Soft. You can learn it, but cannot thread it up after that point.

Really curious why you limit it like that?

Because Active Softs learned by a TM cannot be further threaded up in Rating. It uses an already existant rule.

And where are you getting the thought that Tactical Software is an Active Soft? Just because a normal program version of Tac Soft is limited to Rank 4 Max?

He's not saying it is an activesoft, just that his table uses the limitations of activesofts to attempt to limit the effect of TacSofts.

Which is why TMs can't get them at my tables. I don't have to worry about not letting them thread the CF or anything - they simply can't get it. It's not listed as any particular sort of program (common, hacking, ect), so they can't learn it as a CF.

I'm curious, do you also let TMs get Sensor Software as CFs?

I said we treat it as an ActiveSoft, or other emulatable hardware.

Limits imply that there are .... LIMITS. Notice that they did not allow a Tacnet to advance to Rating 10 like other Programs. Notice that they did not allow ActiveSofts to advance to Rating 7 like Normal Skills can. You want a Tacsoft, you buy it From Rating 1-4. A Technomancer wants a Tacsoft CF, he gets to emulate it (much like an ActiveSoft, Smartlink, or SimRig) from Rating 1-4, and then purchase it as such. Because he has to emulate it to start with, he cannot Thread it above the learned level he bought it at. Just like he cannot thread the Smartlink to all of a suden provide +10 to its use.

We do, and in fact, PACKS (The Original PACKS) provides examples of just that thing.

A TM with Smartlink, TacNet, some Activesofts, and other CFs - "You know guys, sometimes I get these splitting migraines..."

Yep... Them Technomancers are Odd...

To be honest... Given the effort involved in taking advantage of a threaded Rank 10 Tacsoft I'd say let them have it. If they do a normal tacnet then 12 Technomancers would be needing to thread their Tacsoft up and they would each have to each provide 20 channels of data input. If there is only 1 Technomancer doing a Centralized TacNet then that TM would need a Living Persona System of at least 6 (so that he can slave at least 11 other commlinks to his Persona) and then each of them would need to provide 20 channels of data input. That is a pretty large hurdle.

Even a more reasonable threaded rank 5 tacsoft means either 7 Technomancers in a tacnet or a Persona System rating of at least 4 (more reasonable) plus 10 data channels.

As for threading a Smartlink Complex form up and getting +10 I have no idea where that is coming from.

I just find the arbitrary limiting Tactical Software to the Emulation rules somewhat odd is all *shrug* when Emulation is used for Skillsofts and Tacsofts give AR based information as opposed to telling your body how to move.

Personally, I'm fine with Unwired 125 I don't see how a technomancer can emulate software that can't possibly exist, so adding more rules to prevent what's already impossible seems like an over-complication to me.

Um.. who says the TM has to Emulate tacsoft? They don't emulate any of the Common or Hacking programs do they? They can can thread Smartlink and Simrigs up without having to Emulate.

As far as using a complex form of software that doesn't exist.. a Technomancer who gets his Resonance to 7 can Thread Exploit to 14.. even Milspec stuff doesn't go beyond 12 so are you saying a TM can't do that?

Why is that ODD, when the Tactical Software is ALREADY limited to Rating 4? Keeps teh technology sane, to me.

Which given the ease with wich it can be hacked, I wouldn't worry about it. I think that the rules are vague in terms of what is purchased and how many copies of legit software you can run on multiple devices.

I assume every program a runner has is unregistered, and I don't worry about how many times he uses the same program. For drones though, the pilot program is specific to the drone.

Technomancers Already thread software that does not exist. We place a limit on the Tactical Network Software, justy like there is a Limit to how Technomancers can obtain a CF for an Active Soft. It goes to 4, no higher, in this case, because a tactical Software package does not exceed 4. In the end, it is just to constrain those that come up with the idea that they can Thread any Software to insane levels. We also enforce this with Sensor Software (though to Rating 6) as well.

The reasoning is because these software "Packages" are not normal packages that are commonly learned as CF's (Much like learning a Smartlink or Simrig CF). Since there are already rules for using Activesofts in such a manner, we just apply those rules to Tacsofts (Max Rating of 4) and Sensor Softs (Maximum Rating of 6). Active Softs already have a maximum rating of 4 by the Rules.

No worries...

By my reading of the rules he can't. What you do at your own table is, as always, not something I care about.

SR4A 240
My understanding of this means that the end result of threading is the setting of a CF rating.

Above that on the same pageSo there is a link between the CF rating (even after being threaded) and the program rating.

On the previous page (239).

As I read this last sentence, unless you houserule the existence of CFs for which there is no software, then CFs are limited to existing software and whatever the possible ratings of that software are. If, pre-war, you had software ratings in your game higher than that obtainable by players, I see no reason why technomancers couldn't thread it, but if software ratings were limited to that available to the players, that limitation also applied to technomancers.

As always, feel free to interpret differently, or, if you simply don't like it, declare it fluff.

Well, if you are trying to keep it from getting silly thats fine. I'm just of the opinion that if the players are willing to put in the effort to make a Rating 5+ Tacnet work to its full extent then I am willing to allow them the benefits of that work.

Drones have different sensors, different sensor locations, different weights and shapes, and differing modes of movement. In my game I do not allow most Autosofts to work on every drone. You buy an autosoft specific to a drone, then can copy it all you want, but its only good on other drones of the same or very similar model.

Except that it is explicit in the book that a TM can thread a CF to twice his Resonance. This is from the book where Programs did not exceed Rating 6, as well. The end result is that a Technomancer can conceivably have a CF that he can thread up to 12+, should he care to risk the drain.



Yes, and No. A CF acts like a Program, but can have ratings equal to twice the resonance of the TM (Through Threading). You Threading allows you to exceed the rating fo the CF you have, or provide you a CF you do not have.

Emulation allows you to mimic a program (Specifically for Biowires and ActgiveSofts) such that you can then save it as a CF. But this is a Skill, not a "True" program CF, and thus cannot be further enhanced by Threading.

Purchasing such things as a Smartlink and Simrig allow you to emulate Hardware as well, and are bought as a CF, but these CF's cannot be further Threaded either, because there is no effect for having a Simrig or Smartlink running at a "Higher" capacity. They only do one thing.



There are already concrete rules for things that have no "Software", per se. The Smartlink and Simrig (and other related Hardware that the GM authorizes) are examples of such things.

CF's allow the explicit bypassing of the Program Ratings. That is exactly what Threading is designed to do. Of Course, as you say, you are always, feel free to interpret differently, or, if you simply don't like it, declare it fluff.

I realize you believe that, but I can't find that anywhere. All you're showing me is an additional threading cap limited to twice the Resonance. Since it's "explicit" would it be too difficult to find the rule (book and page) stating that. Failing that, anything that documents the intent of the designers (as you claim) would help.

Pg 243 SR4A under the Fading section the example listed has the character threading a Complex form over her Resonance rating but under twice the Resonance rating.

"Netcat threaded a complex form, scoring 4 hits and raising it from 4 to 8. Netcat's Resonance is 5, so she faces Fading equal to 4P. blablabla fading test stuff"

Is that what you are looking for?

SR4A, Page 240, and I quote...



Important part you are looking for is bolded and italicized. Pretty evident to me; what do you think?

Deleted. It's just not worth it.

Irrelevant, though. A Technomancer could have a CF at Rating 10 (assuming Resonance 10) and could then thread that software to Rating 20, even though you cannot get Software at Ratings above 10 (They are currently Limited to Rating 10).

AS for Other things with limited ratings. I have already agreed that you cannot thread such things above their rating. ActiveSofts are the biggest, easily referenced example for this. You cannot get a Skill CF above a Rating of 4, Period. Regardless that the Skill itself can go to a Skill Rating of 7 (10 as an Adept) in Theory. I apply this to TacSofts (Max of Rating 4, because of their Limit) and Sensor Softs (Max of Rating 6, because of their Limit).

I do understand what you are saying in principle, though.
The ability to even Create a Tacsoft CF is up to the GM to start with. If he allows a Technomancer to exceed the hard capped limits for such variant CF's, then he has no one to blame but himself when the game goes off track because of it.

*slicks back his mowhawk and chomps on his cigar*

Heh...

Forgive me if I don't get the reasoning behind that.
The way I see it, the Pilot is already unique to the vehicle or drone. It's there to interpret the general purpose Autosoft programs, and make them work for the drone. Doubling up on system-exclusiveness would make for the business model Apple would love to be able to stick to, if it weren't for the law working against them.

*shrug* To each his own though. ^_^

It depends on the autosoft. In my games, a Maneuver autosoft is specific to each type of vehicle (Steel Lynx, Zuggmaschine, Jackrabbit), but even according to SR4A 246, the autosoft for a Steel Lynx (ground Vehicle) would definitely not work in a Stormcloud (LTA Blimp).

But, if you were loading up and Electronic Warfare autosoft, I would allow it to work, since it would provide "knowledge" of how to use a wide range of devices effectively.

They are vehicle-specific in the book, but IIRC there are suggested optional rules for the GM to allow mis-match installations with pretty significant penalties.

Sorry to add to the derailment of the thread about the whole software rating issue but I think someone isn’t doing their research. The maximum rating program available is solely based on the skill of the programmer, tools available and amount of time that can be spent writing. Sure the books only list programs up to rating 6 (or 10 with War!) but those are only what are commercially available. By my calculations A Skill 6, Logic 6, Programming Suite 5 programmer (that’s 17 dice +2 for specialization for 19 dice) could write any of the following (using average dice rolls):
Rating 19 Agent/IC/Pilot
Rating 28 Autosoft/Firewall/Hacking Program/System
Rating 57 Common Use Program

That’s a single dedicated programmer and a lot of time. Sure you probably won’t be able to find a system that can actually run a rating 57 edit program, but there is really nothing stopping you from writing it.

So a TM having a CF of 20 is well within bounds of available within game.

That's not true. There are external rules about ratings above 6, and above 10, no matter your skill. This is because we're sane. There's nothing wrong with a system having closed boundaries, because it knows the rules don't function outside those bounds.

Additionally, there are some interpretations requiring that the machine you write a program on actually be able to run it (in some views, magically bypassed by using a nexus).

Using those numbers, you could eventually write a Rating 100 Program of any variety. The fact that it is entirely ludicrous indicates that it should never be allowed in a million years. That said, a Technomancer can STILL Thread his rating 10 CF to 20, even if the Programs were hard capped at 10. It is Just the way that the rules are written.

I agree the CF of 10 to 20 is fully allowed. I was just trying to point out that the game isn't limited to rating 6 programs as has been claimed.

On a side note (with a depleting dice pool) a rating 100 program would (on average) require a 25 dice pool. That would be very hard to get I'm sure.

-D

Unless they write the code for a million years. Then they deserve it.