I have a possession-based tradition character in my SR game, who tends to summon Force 10-14 spirits. He's mentioned that if it possesses an object, the object has no 'augmented maximum', so it gets the full benefit of augmented traits. Is this true? I was wondering if the item could only get a 50% increase (or perhaps double) the actual trait.

Can you use a Force 14 spirit to make an indestructible marshmallow?

… I'm sorry, I couldn't get beyond the incredible problem of your first sentence.

It's really not that uncommon of an issue.

Force 10+ spirits aren't unheard of in my game either. Of course we are VERY pink mohock.

As far as bumping past some maximum... Our table says that the spirits don't have a maximum, so they add force to all stats without limits (including when possessing a metahuman). But as always YMMV.

-D

It doesn't surprise me though, I tended to do this in SR 3 with my shaman. I'd only get 1-2 tasks, but hey, for those tasks, the thing's damn near unstoppable. I've given the player a semi-warning once, in that the spirit he tried to summon at one point spent an Edge on the resistance roll. I indicated that the character has to really learn to play nice with the spirits, or they'll be more reluctant to just accept being summoned.

So his character's now trying to talk with, socialize with, and make friends with the spirits, rather than just yanking the biggest one he can find. (On my part, in SR3, my character was always making nice with spirits, to the point where he invented a metamagic to 'gift karma' to a spirit as a thank you before dismissing them.)

Even without Edge, the expected drain for Force 14 is more than 9P with a maximum of 28P. Are you sure the player is using the rules right?

Moreover inanimate objects do not get any additional functionality by possession. So an object that could not normally move on its own could not either if it is possessed. Otherwise, yes you will get very resilient objects.

Well, he's also doing things like having it possess weapons and armour (which increases the accuracy and damage of the weapon, or the B/I of the armour). I'm just wondering if there should be an upper limit for what it can do / have (like 1.5 or 2 x the item's normal value).

And how, exactly, does a spirit increase the accuracy of a Weapon by possessing it?

This. Possession is meant for either possessing people, or creating D&D style golems (ie animating statues, drones, and the like). You could probably possess a full armor suit... but possessing a gun? Wouldn't do you a damn bit of good.

A gun probably won't get any bonuses but you could argue that the DV of a melee weapon is due to its "mechanical functions".

I wouldn't argue that at all... You would just get a really tough weapon out of the deal.

No, spirit possesed people (the biggest issue) are still subject to metahuman maximums per the errata document at least, and thank Big D for that.

Isn't the DV a "physical rating" of the weapon as well? Not only its resilience? Strictly speaking weapons aren't even barriers and as such do not get a barrier rating. What would you improve on a weapon?


Are you sure. The only place I saw this was in the FAQ. The rules in Street Magic say the exact opposite.

A vehicle that is possessed gets an increase in Speed, Body, and Armour (SM II pg 102). It mentions an object's 'physical ratings' get increased. Would this include accuracy in a gun? The more I think about this, the more I'm thinking that a weapon's accuracy or DV is not a 'physical rating' - the accuracy can be compared to the Handling of a vehicle (which is not augmented).

I don't see any restriction to 'augmented maximum' for possession though, in SM II.

Or the B/I values of armor?

I think he's meaning that, instead of having the character attack with the weapon, it would be the spirit attacking with the weapon, which might have more dice to throw at the attack roll. Though, this is wrong, as the spirit can't actually 'attack'. It's stationary in the weapon.

Absolutely Nothing.

If it can increase the Body and Armour of a car, wouldn't it also increase the BI of armour?

No... Worn Armor is not a Vehicle.

I was unaware that possessing spirits increase the body of a vehicle... I REALLY need to start looking deeper into the magic rules and stop playing mundanes. I also need to stop drooling over the, now assumed, way to put more slots for mods onto a vehicle since it's body just went nuts.

What? You obviously can't add more mods. The Body is increased for the purposes of damage resistance, and maybe ramming? Sounds like a terrible rule in the first place, but either way, it doesn't get bigger, or heavier, or anything like that. If you want more mods, just Overmod (because clearly your GM doesn't care).

This is Shadowrun, good sir. "Obvious" comes up very little. But I understand your point.

Hehe. I know that you mean it's often *ignored*, but it frequently comes up. Just another aspect of the Possession mess, anyway.

To sum up the consensus (with which I happen to agree): the possession mage's player has been blowing smoke up your ass. Next session, smack him good and hard over the head with the rulebook.

I'm still dying to see the dice rolls that have allowed him to survive this several times.

Does Absorption or Bloodmagic allow you to reduce drain on summoning, or only on spells? Cause that's about the only way I can think of surviving.

Me Too...



Absorption does not, Blood Magic Might.

Blood magic could, off the top of my head. But when players get their hands on blood magic, things have gone too far anyway.

Even if he is just Summoning, and not Binding, sooner or later this PC will kill himself. Encourage the player to Summon at every opportunity. Hasten the inevitable.

Remember to add grisly descriptions of the spirit reanimating his corpse and eye-socket-raping his teammates to death. If they're not puking, you didn't do it right.

Also remember the rules about having spirits spend edge to resist, any spirit summoned by a magician with a lower magic rating then them really should be spending edge to resist that.

The rules are super unclear about what does and doesn't get boosted by spirits, and they basically say "go hog wild, make things up based on what you think will balance your game." I don't see indestructible marshmallows as a big problem but I sure wouldn't allow melee weapons to get bonuses to hit and also to DV like that.

I'm pretty sure I remember seeing a thing about still having to use augmented maximums. Might have been reading it wrong though, or possibly confusing it with the rules on Inhabitation.

For the possession of weapons/armor, I've always looked at it like, they don't increase the actual DV or B/I, but they still get to use their spirit powers. So your armor that's possessed by an F5 spirit will still have 10/10 hardened armor. Or if you possess a sword with a fire spirit, it could have a flame aura.

That's the only thing that definitely doesn't happen, though. It might be a good house rule.

hm, really? I guess I'll have to read that whole section again. Maybe that whole book just to be sure. Annoying how half of the relevant information on Possession is in a sidebar, and some of it is in random other places...

To clarify, those things do 'happen', just not in a player-useful way. The armor is still bolstered… against destruction, but doesn't help defend the PC. The weapon might have an aura, but it only affects attacks made by the spirit under its own action (or if someone tried to sunder the weapon, I guess).

see, the way I look at it is this:

for armor, in order to hit the PC wearing the armor, you have to puncture the armor (at least with bullets, which is honestly what most runners are worried about when they wear armor.) Therefore, you would have to puncture the spirit which is possessing the armor, therefore an attack against that spirit is implied in any attack against a player wearing spirit-possessed armor.

for weapons, I read the elemental Aura power as "Any creature in melee range of the Aura must resist damage from it." So, according to my understanding, whether you're attacking or not, is irrelevant.

I dig, I'm just telling you that those are non-RAW. They're house rules. You're reading what isn't written there. There's nothing wrong with that, and the 'real' rules are often terrible.

fair enough. Doesn't seem too OP to me, this way, especially since I would count that as terrible treatment of a spirit (for the armor at least)

On the topic of the guy summoning force 10+ spirits, I would assume such a spirit would be like, a demi-god. If they summon spirits that high, I'd start giving them extra powers the player doesn't know about, and letting them bend the rules of summoning. Even if the player is very nice to spirits, a powerful one wouldn't be used to being commanded and might not appreciate it.

Is it really? Unless you use additional house rules, the spirit is in no danger of being damaged and doesn't even have to do anything.

Sure, but it'll get bored. They need proper stimulating exercise, those spirits.

how so? if we're assuming that the armor is the spirits "body" and that in order to hit the player, a bullet would have to pass through it, wouldn't that mean that, given those premises, the spirit would suffer some kind of damage? Or, at the very least, discomfort/pain/whatever-spirits-feel-when-a-bullet-passes-through-their-physical-body?

It's only until sunrise/sunset. I can think of worse lots.
Which again is a house rule. You can only target the spirit armor composite or the wearer by RAW unless you are using AoE weapons. If you use such a houserule it is no worse than sending the spirit into combat possessing another object/person.

Unless the magician does a ritual summon to extend that (which is par for the course here).

Thinking about the armour thing - why would a person get resistance to normal weapons and attribute boosts, and a car get extra body/armour, but normal armour wouldn't?

The armor *does*. But the armor having ITNW doesn't give the *wearer* anything.

Hound, Dakka Dakka's pointing out that that's another house rule. RAW, armor (and things possessing armor) doesn't take damage like that. So you have to make a new rule to support your other rule.

What if it is a Guardian spirit? Isn't that what they're supposed to do?

As for helping with dice rolls, if the spirit has the relevant skills and the flight power I would be willing to let it roll a teamwork test to help in attacking or dodging or whatever. You could even make a case that it is the spirit triggering the firing mechanisms not the mage. A free suppression fire in whatever direction the mage is pointing would be a pretty fun follow up to a Powerball casting.

yeah I can see that, I'm not really trying to argue RAW, just explaining my point of view really. The rules often seem wonky to me in some places, and I suspect it's more due to oversights, rather than intentions.

Don't sugarcoat it: the rules in many places are bad. It's just fundamental on Dumpshock that we're clear on the what they are in the first place, and then we can fix them.

... but in that case the wileder should be exposed to the damages from the aura too (and the eventual other spirit possessing his armor). With a F10+ spirit this is quickly going to hurt.

a materialized fire spirit is in melee range of is personnal Energy Aura, but have no immunity so by the (dumbs) rules he vanished?

Possession traditions have no clear rules. So all i have read above sounds like House Rules to me.
Up to each GM to forge is opinion on this, but i don't see unbalanced think about a spirit possessing an armor or a weapon, and gifting the owner an extra armor or damage. If the spirit possessed directly a Vessel, it works like this, so why can't you have the same (but reduced to one aspect) think?

If I had to guess, for possession, it works like manifestation, only requires an object / person, and the rules under possession are more or less the only change involved. It can do anything else a manifested spirit can do. I'm more concerned about what it does to inanimate objects that acts like the immunity and augmented attributes normal people get.

Though honestly, for physical stats, I'd probably have ruled 'higher of Force or the possessed host's physical attributes' - much less munchinking involved.