OK, I got this problem with cyberlimbs: I ran out of capacity trying to fit an augmented character with high-Body, high-Strength cybernetic arms that also have some Agility (what happens if you don't buy attribute boosts for cyberlimbs, anyway? Common sense is conflicted between "completely unusable" and "using character's default attribute") and at least one has a submachine gun built in (not autopistol, I need some more oomph). Is there a way for increasing the cyberlimbs' capacity?

There is the Bulk modification in Augmentation. It increases the cost and availability of the limb by a small amount, but gives you extra modification slots.

Without any boosts either by customization or enhancements, the default attribute of a cyberlimb is 3. So you'll have 3 Strength, Body, and Agility with that limb.

Hm, better than obvious, bulked up cyberlimbs with optimization? No
But getting those capacity values down is a feat. Maybe you should prioritize. And, if your gm let's you, use the redlining optional rule to balance out/enhance when needed.

I myself like and use redlining. It is needed to make cyberlimbs worth it.

Yes. Obvious cyberlimbs, optimisation and bulk mod from Augmentation.
Other than that, I'm afraid I don't recall any options in the RAW...

Also, yeah, redlining and sensory cutoff can be great.

Duh, right about that second one. Now I recalled it (anyway, if I have enough capacity left for Body 3, I don't have to buy it and can spend it on other features instead, right?). As for the "Bulk" modification, where can I find it?

Augmentation, p.44.

You do know about Cyberlimb Customization, right? Apparently it used to be in Augmentation, rather than the core rulebook.

Custom Cyberlimbs can go up to the characters unaugmented maximum in attributes without needing slots.

...huh, great. Seems like I misread the corebook. Looks like I don't really need that many points to do what I want and in one case, can't even spend that much anyway. Also, customized cyberlimbs are great way for totally mohawking the amounts and kind of gear you can put in them.

For some pretty nifty cyberlimbs, check out Umaro's Archetypes. There's a few cyberlimb users in there. Depending on the type of character you want to make, you might want to check out the Negotiator, Ronin, or Generalist.

But remember that "bulk" means exactly what it says.

[img]http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/5131/1304550823825.jpg[/img]

Also, if I recall, you need a Cybertorso if you take limbs higher than a certain amount, I just forget what that minimum was.

(I have a character who has super-strength cybernetic raptor legs; it actually was quite expensive getting all of his stuff squared away. Honestly, he's more of a 'story' character than an 'in game' character but I wanted to see if I could actually make him. I don't recall the cutoff stat point for the torso; I knew the boosts would go so far above normal anyway that he'd need a torso regardless.)

+3. That would logically cap max cyberlimb strength at 6, max for the meat. Unless we're going into customized limbs for someone with natural Strength of 5 or 6...

And an invisibility cloak and two SMGs? I admit, raptor legs are pretty damn neat and with ten slots, you can do a lot of PM stuff with it. Agility boost, maybe some jet thrusters...

Customize is limited by your racial natural maximum, not your own stats.

So yes, you can have a wimp with natural attributes of 1 and cyberlimbs of attribute 9 without needing a cybertorso in between . .
but at that point, i question your ability to lift the limbs themselves . .

I agree with the former, but disagree very strongly with the latter.

Hmm, redlining and pain cutoff . . if i switch on pain cutoff and then do redlining, do i still take stun damage?

IMHO yes, as that damage does not only come from the sensory feedback of the overloaded cybernetic part, but also from the stress beyond design this overload inflicts on the meaty bits it is connected to.

YES! I flipped the car!!!

...

Oh Ghost, my back is on fire, and I think I ruptured something in my... Yes, that was my kidney. My only kidney.

bah, useless then <.<

I admit, I don't really read comics so I'm not sure who you're talking about. But nah, he has an SMG for backup but he's more of a total unarmed guy with said super pimped raptor legs. (they basically have agility, body, massive strength, some armor, razors, spurs, and a foot anchor. And a torso. +Str max genetech and positive quality, martial arts for blades/kicking and being an elf he gets the natural extra agility. Keep in mind he is reserved for a bit higher-power pink mohawk games. I do not recommend this for any semblance of a 'normal' SR game, but he's a fun guy to write about in the stories.)

And redlining IS fun. As long as you're somewhat careful with it. I have to say the new cyberlimb rules are quite sweet. One thing that irked me in older editions was that the cyberlimbs seemed to be like-I dunno, part of the whole cyberpunk thing? But were too expensive to do anything really fun with.

Man I just looked up redlining... the drain on that is absurd. Assuming you already have a capped out stat (and you should) redlining it makes you take 18S+ damage, and you resist with just body.



I will give you, it is a very interesting way to kill a character.

Yeah, the Limbs are, for the first time in History, actually USEFULL in SR4. No little part because of the direct stacking of Cyber-Limb-Armor.
But the Redlining with that Damage is useless <.<

DocWagon is a good investment in those times. Snap the bracelet, flip the car, writhe around in agony waiting for the nice men in the ambulance/helicopter show up.

I agre that's definitevely pink mohawk territory - that sort of blatantly melée-oriented weirdo cyberware - especially if you add a balance tail to remove the raptor leg's penatlies (or wer they only in SR 3 ?) - is enough to get him instantly classed as 'dangerous freak' by just about any security. which means most upscale (well, just about any decently secured) areas are getting close ot off-limits. Espcially since the very low number of raptor-legged elves around means any pending investigation realted ot one raptor-legged elf is likely to get him detained and questioned.

If I remember right, SR3's chapter about the social effect of cyberware include something like 'a character with raptor legs and a balance tail will be considered as an A-grade freak by most peoples'....

In SR3, Raptor Legs had NO Penalty at all O.o
Aside from being expensive as hell, needing to be a set of two full legs and being obvious as a dragon in an elevator . .
You actually got bonus to intimidate people, if you were strutting your stuff more . .

Remember, as weird as we think raptor legs and/or balance tails are in 2011, neither of them are ® or (F) availability. They're perfectly legal, and could be commonplace (construction workers, anyone?) in all kinds of places in SR. Unless someone's taken the Distinctive Style Quality, or is specifically in a place that's known to be snooty about appearances, these implants don't give you free reign to send security/cops crashing down on a player's head.



SR3 was a long time ago, though. Attitudes may have, and apparently did, changed in the ~10 years since that was printed.

Yeah, this is how I see it. Now, of course, if he's stupid about doing something-say if he breaks into a compound and uses his raptor legs to reduce half the security into chili paste before giving them a basic hosing off(not a proper cleaning) and not bothering to actually swap them out or take off the security cam during all of this and then proceeding to track blood from one end of the lot to the other, then yeah, I think the GM would be perfectly within his rights to say ''Yeah, a light-blue skinned, long haired raptor legged elf just kicked down a door and turned twelve guys into mush, there's a knock at the door.''

Now, legal but outlandish ware and bio-changes can make you more recognizable, and indeed possibly problematic for a super-posh type place or situation(black-tie establishments and the like.) But if they're legal, they're legal; someone won't get arrested just for having some crazy body tattoos and bright green cyberarms(legal ones with no weapons), unless they happen to look like that other guy with crazy body tattoos and bright green cyberarms. Unless said person decides to wear nothing but a Mortimer Greatcoat and streak through a diner, but that's neither here nor there.

Now, in my fella's case, his legs are definitely not of the street legal variety, as I'm pretty sure they have more blades(counting there's three in the front and one in the back of each, plus the two anchors) than most people carry on their person.

Oh, and no penalties for using raptor legs even without a tail in SR4(he does have a balance augmenter anyway just since that's how I saw him.)

I STILL would reserve him for a more pink-mohawky game though even if he had less blades. (And again, he's more of a character i'm using in my little Shadowrun story I'm doing, but I made him up for if we do some of our more outlandish games in the gaming group to see how he'd look on paper.)

I do admit though it's fun to put together cool cyberware suites/limbs and the like. (I made a suite for my home games that involve two cyberlimbs optimized for baseball-there are hitting and throwing versions-along with a few other reaction enhancers/odds and ends for cybernetic baseball.)

I am kind of a cyber-limb advocate .

They can be some of the most powerful cyberware if used correctly. I have to make myself not go full borg every game, I love it so much, and it typically throws off game balance.

A trauma damper is a good companion for a redlining limb, and decent body. With those you should be able to get an extra die every now and then without any repercussion. Of course, pain editors are even better for a highly armored character and they don't work with the trauma damper.

Bah, see for yourself:
http://www.figures.com/forums/attachments/...rovaduesuse.jpg

Also, if my memory serves me right, raptor legs can be quick-swapped with a normal pair of lower legs. "Excuse me, sir, what is in that briefcase? - Only my spare set of legs."

I suppose if you really wanted to increase capacity you could keep attaching the wrist socket of a modular lower arm to the elbow socket of another modular lower arm.





-k

Note that I didn't mention anything like 'snatching him just because of the legs'. What I meant is simply that the things are outlandish and combat-oriented looking enough to get him under watch and possible harassment. Just like they're likely to watch and maybe harass a tatooed-and-pierced to the gills punk in dirty and tagged army surplus clothes lounging around with his pitbull and paper-clad bottle in an upscale district, even if he isn't breaking any law.

And if there's an investigation going about a freaky raptor-legged elf kicking serious ass, the cops won't think twice before holding the three of them in town for questioning and verifications unless they have very solid and respectable IDs. Even more so if one matching the descirption comes from the Barrens or the like.

I'm also of the opinion that something as uncommon and impossible to disguise as raptor legs should impose the 'distinctive style' flaw. The things are basically changing teh way you're walking into somehtign inyman, I doubt many peoples would want that sort of hardware. Your mileage may vary of course, but in my opinion, they are the sort of hardcore 'ware only very few peoples would want, even if you no longer need the balance tail to get all the benefits.

Oh, I actually, for his tabletop game, insist he had that for FREE. I mean, seven foot eight at full extended height(he was tall for an elf as it was before that), light blue skin, dark blue hair, raptor legs and cybernetic horns on his head. Yeah, I actually just took it at a decent level without the corresponding points. (I only have a black and white pic of him, but this is him. http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/TheC...mael_large2.jpg Not my drawing-an aquaintance of mine did it-but it nails how I always pictured the raptor cyberlegs in Shadowrun, though torsos are naturally easier to hide via shirts/jackets/etc. Though I'm sure there are tons of variants-including smaller/skinnier/less weapon more movement sporty style, or with hooves instead of the taloned feet.)

One note about Extreme Cyberware Pimping that I also learned from this guy-You may, very well, end up playing a massive essence juggling game at the end of it all. Once you get 2 Limbs + a Torso, that's a fair bit of essence as it is. Then it's a matter of putting together other odds and ends that you may want, though once you have 2 limbs+Torso the limbs you don't particularly care about only need minimal mods(and don't forget Torsos get stats as well and factor into the stat averaging, so even human meat arms in a pimped Torso will have some juice to them.)

I think this is why Squinky said they can be overpowering. It's true-if you really start to assemble stuff right they can be insane. But damn they're fun.



This I would have to see.

Except, again, I reject your basic premise of them being "outlandish and combat-oriented." To us they certainly are. To the cops in the mid 2070s? They've obviously got bigger problems, because there's nothing in the description or the legality code of raptor legs that says, or even implies, that the cops should choose to give you an extra hassle. Even back in SR3, when they were still called "Kid Stealth" legs and named after a notoriously lethal and dangerous street samurai, they had a legality code of simply "legal."


I think you're underestimating how many people might have raptor legs, by 207x. You could just be doing it for hyperbole's sake to be funny, but to clarify...The fluff text for raptor legs describes them as being "popular," and it's not the club scene is a small crowd. I don't think raptor legs are as rare and freakishly easy to track down as you seem to think they are -- and, again, there's no reason for them to be registered in any sort of database anyways, because they aren't restricted (so it's not like you need a permit to have them), and they're module cyberlimb accessories (so it's not like everyone that has a set is always wearing them).


Nothing imposes the distinctive style flaw except a player that chooses to take it, or a GM that chooses to start handing out flaws willy-nilly (hopefully with some karmic recompense). I understand that they're strange and inhuman, and I'm not arguing that, but so is an awful lot of other shit in Shadowrun. The rules make it clear that someone's pretty much only distinctive when they want to be, because there's so much weird stuff out there in Shadowrun. It's not just about how you look, but how you carry yourself, and there are rules in place to reflect that.

It's certainly possible our conversation just has some wires crossed and we're making mountains out of each others molehills, here, but it seems to me like you've just arbitrarily decided to dislike a piece of gear that could be quite common and handy for all sorts of people, and to lump it -- in your head, and as such in the heads of all the NPCs in your games -- into the "grr, dangerous Shadowrunner stuff" category. The simple fact is raptor legs and balance tails just make you faster and able to jump better, keep your balance, etc, etc. These things could be all over the place, popular in quite a few industries, and should be running rampant (pun intended) among athletes and would-be athletes.

I guess I just don't see the fun in dropping the whole suspicious world on a player character just because they got some totally legal, totally non-restricted, cyberlimbs. If somebody decides they want Kid-Stealth-like notoriety for having the legs with a dozen nasty blades attached, optimized for combat, gets 'em with a flashy custom finish, struts around in them 24/7 and tries to build a rep around them -- IE, changes the legality code by implanting weapons, and wants the Distinctive Style -- then sure, knock yourself out...but just choosing to give it to someone, arbitrarily? Something about that rubs me the wrong way.

Only one modular attachment is allowed per limb per the last line of the modular rules.

Eh. It's funnier to allow it.




-k

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww... He missed the ISS.

Let's agree we disagree on our vision of Shadworun - even if the raptor legs are effectively said to be 'popular on the club scene', the things still cost two years of the average wageslave's salary (low lifestyle) and one third of it's essence... And still half his yearly salary to a lower management employee (medium lifestyle). For a basic, no-frills legs set. Pimp them up and the cost will get even higher. This in my opinion restrict it to the hardcore clubbers and/or rebellious rich kids. Definitevely not mainstream.

Being popular and fitting in a nightclub doesn't mean it's welcome or accepted elsewhere - take today's extreme raver outfits and wear that on Wall Street or in London's City area. Odds are you're going to stand out and get noticed. Which is, when all is said and done, the goal of what's popular in the clubs : to get yourself noticed.

I tend to also disagree on thedistinctive style disadvantage - most changeling have it as an imposed penalty. Someone packing an obvious cyberskull with chrome finish, terminator-style red eyes and a set of steel fangs for instance would need to take it (and get the according points). By your logic, unless the players decides to effectively buy the disadvantage every NPC should consider him like he's a perfectly normal guy, even if the character looks like something out of a bad sci-fi horror movie. Or his there a point where, as a GM you would tell the player 'hem, sorry but if you want your character to look like that, you'll have to take the 'distinctive style' disadvantage.

*shrugs* I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, because the line of when Distinctive Style should kick in isn't neat and straight, it veers wildly from side to side, left and right, and is impossible to pin down for every game and every game master and even every scene or setting. Just like the sidebar about Distinctive Style says, it's going to depend on "the game being played."

Personally, I wouldn't saddle someone with extra security hassles and negative NPC attention for some perfectly legal pieces of cyberware without, at least, warning them first (and steering them towards that Negative Quality, so they could at least get some points for it). As you mention with raver wear, the goal is sometimes to get noticed -- so if a player's goal is to get noticed, there's a mechanic and a rule for that built right there into the game, so if they want to, they can.

Like everything else in the game, and even someone's "vision of Shadowrun," it's something that is better discussed with the individual players of a game and hashed out as an agreement and understanding between friends, than bickered about on the internet. I'm an eternal advocate of GMs and players actually talking to each other and working this sort of stuff out ahead of time, instead of just pointed to the "RAW" and expecting everyone to magically be on the same page. You and I not necessarily seeing it the same way over Dumpshock doesn't mean we wouldn't be able to sit down and play together and run a guy with raptor legs just fine, and I don't mean to come off as unnecessarily argumentative, along the way.

That is wrong. Body Mods and Social Interactions, Augmentation, p.20. Of course it does not mention Distinctive Style, but that is only because Distinctive Style was printed later in Runner's Companion. Instead they wrote this:
That is pretty much the defintion of Distinctive Style.

Without the social ramifications, there would be no reason to turn the Raptor legs into a modular plugin. The lines may have changed a little since SR3, but Raptor legs are still too much.

"That is wrong" is a pretty strong statement, instead of just sliding into a conversation a little more casually. But, okay. Whatever floats your boat. Since you're so certain I'm so wrong, I'll reply in a less conversational tone, point by point.

1) Augmentation specifically points out that your passage applies only to "extreme modifications" (even their raptor leg example includes additional accessories, describing them as "frilly"), and goes on to say that they "may" cause issues, "at the gamemaster's discretion," and then it tells you what might happen if the GM does think it's appropriate. There's plenty of fluff text there, but then a hard rule that describes the actual in-game effect. It can cause a -1 or -2 to Social Skill Tests -- nothing about additional security scrutiny, nothing about citywide databases that tell you who holds what perfectly legal cyberware, nothing about mechanically being easier to track down or remember, and nothing about stock, off-the-shelf, augmentations.

2) In addition to stating that those "extreme modifications" "may," "at the gamemaster's discretion," cause that sort of mild social pool modifier, that passage from Augmentation points out that the whole thing is only likely to happen in certain circles, where that sort of outlandish appearance, amidst sheltered people, may cause a problem...and please note that in my post you quoted, I specifically say "Unless someone...is specifically in a place that's known to be snooty about appearances." It's right there, me saying that I'd prefer to see Distinctive Style apply or for this sort of NPC attention to be temporary and situational. Situational, just like the section in Augmentation suggests.

3) Because Distinctive Style (or rather, Runner's Companion as a whole) was printed later, one of gaming's golden rules applies: the more recent books likely take precedent. With the inclusion of a rule dedicated entirely towards how distinctive a character is (or isn't), and with that rule repeatedly urging game masters and players to sit down and talk about how distinctive they want a character to be (or not to be), I really don't see how I'm out and out "wrong" here.

If you didn't mean for your introduction to be as hostile as it was, I apologize for any harshness or matter-of-factness in my tone. But just barging in with a "you're wrong" isn't going to illicit the most light-hearted and cheerful of responses from any corner of the internet.

EDIT (in response to an edit):

No. That can be the definition of Distinctive Style. It all comes down to the game being run. Someone running a Barrens Ganger game where the PCs are slinging BTLs and Novecoke to club kids probably wouldn't even have a Distinctive Style conversation with a PC over pink, glowing, skin or "frilly" raptor legs. In other games, though, set in other places, I've said time and again that I think it's perfectly appropriate to talk to a player about what ramifications their augmentation choices might bring -- I just think that the GM should talk to a player about it, instead of willy-nilly deciding he's one of three dudes in the whole 30,000,000+ Seattle Sprawl that has raptor legs, always have corporate security breathing down his neck, etc, etc.

If someone's going to get the attention more often than not, at least let them also get the Negative Quality, is all I've been saying.

I think ''talk about the situation'' is the best advice. I mean games can run the gamut of everything. I do think nudging someone toward said quality is a better way to go than auto-saddling, unless it is a situation where the book specifically says so(I might be mistaken here, but I think for some of the very extreme changelings-Ganeshas with plants growing out of their heads-it comes with the territory. I mean, even if said plant-head Ganesha is like, the local mailman, with no illegal anything and no even want to do anything illegal-he'll be pretty damn recognized.

Again, my characters case, I *chose* to take it free, when I converted him to game-form. For one, I had already used up the rest of his qualities. And two-yes, he was one of those that was a lot more of a club scene; those legs were his trademark fighting method and could very easily turn enemies to soy-salsa who decided they wanted to fight him lethally. He got the bio-changed pale blue skin and cyberhorns with them and got his long hair bio-colored dark blue, again, to become more memorable in the bloodsport pits; he didn't suspect he'd actually start this 'shadowrunning' thing, but having his past the way it is he realized yeah, he actually knew how stuff worked, and thus ended up joining the team. My story is definitely more 'mohawk' than 'mirrorshades' though- it's more ''a mohawk with a pair of mirrorshades' which means it can buckle down to get more of the latter now and again but it's core is the more 'Mohawky' Shadowrun that I grew up with.

(Of course, what is Mohawk and what isn't is a whole other thread. For the sake of this thread, for me, people don't necessarily walk around with weapons on main street or look super-strange during the day, but on side streets/lower parts of town you'd likely see some stranger stuff. Club fashions will get you looked at weird at a black tie place-be it there for a dinner or meet-but in more informal meets in the back of a bar/hanging at the mall, it's fine. And so on.)

I mean, if a GM wants to say that in his Seattle/Denver or whatever NO one at all has raptor legs, they're within their right to do so, though that would be a game that isn't quite my cup of tea. I do admit I'm firmly in ''Mohawk with Mirrorshades'' territory with about anything i do-which means I like the down-low pro stuff as part of the game, but I'm all for some interesting character concepts and designs that don't necessarily equate to ''guy with slicked back hair, a black trenchcoat and changes his face every week.'' Not to say that a mirrorshades character can't be interesting. Character is character. I'm just saying I don't mind some offbeat designs.

Thing is, the game *caters* to this. It has obvious limbs and synthetic limbs. It has bio-sculpting that you can use to change your appearance for hiding purposes or just for stylish purposes. There's plenty of stuff in there. Again, if a GM wants to say ''My game is Super Normal Person Mirrorshades Style Only'' that's fine, but make sure it's made clear to the players that taking anything a little out there could result in the flaw. There is really no hard or fast rule here since each GM has some different idea for 'their' Seattle and what they want to allow. Me, if someone walks down the street in raptor legs and horns with no illegal mods in a non-fancy or corporate place, they won't even get looked at twice.

(My fella sticks to side streets in lower areas or underground travel, keeping out of the way. He prefers to keep his talons intact. As Kid Stealth taught those of us who like the ability to play someone pretty wild looking but still pretty pro in what they do, it's doable. )

One-third? Non-modified, non-customized modular lower legs don't even knock one full essence point off. Raptors don't have additional essence penalties either, they're just hard to get and very costly.

Also, regarding my original question: it turned out I misread some things and tried to stuff more mods into a cyberlimb that I really needed. Instead of +3 Str, +3 Dex, +1 Bod and Spurs, I tried to make it an ungodly +5 Str, +4 Dex and +3 Bod (actually impossible unless I added a cybertorso, which I didn't really need), plus Spurs and Armor.