Hey guys, I've got a runner with no cyberwear and I'm trying to max out my armor.
I had been wearing an urban explorer, but there's gotta be something more stylish and less sucky.
Any ideas?

Body 3 = Armor up to 6 before encumbrance issues (SR4A 161)
Assuming a Strength of 2, any of the 6/4 armors (of which there are a lot) with Softweave from WAR! will have an encumbrance of 4/4.
FFBA half body armor (AR 48) = 4/1 for an encum of 2/1. PPP Shin guards for 0/1 would round it out.
That's a total of 10/6 armor.
The big expense here is softweaving your armor.

Wellp, this thread ended up exactly where I thought it would. It's a valid method and all, but only if your GM allows WAR! stuff anyway. Mine doesn't allow softweave, and I'm loath to pull out some of the other tricks in there simply because I'd rather not escalate the arms race that quickly. I'm already playing a minigun-toting Troll, and that feels like enough

I feel like we need our own corollary to Godwin's Law for Dumpshock and WAR! coming up in threads.

FFBA comes to mind, if your GM allows it.
Also, if you're a runner without cyberware and don't need that much mobility (like if you're a [summoner] mage, a rigger or a hacker) you can easily pick whatever armor you want...

I believe somewhere in Arsenal there is a note about having the armor custom tailored to fit you and change the encurambance calculation. ALternativly I know there is a line that says "Ignore encurambance if it the character is wearing only one piece of armor."

I missed, in the question, where I should ignore certain books. I fail to see how FFBA (with it's -2 to encum) is any less cheesy than softweave's -2 to encum. If you want no cheese, then pick a 6/4 armor and be done with it. If you want the FFBA cheese and NOT the softweave cheese then the Berwick shirt and trousers (4/3 total) with FFBA half do the job, though I prefer the Synergist longcoat (4/2) (and FFBA half) for RP reasons (plus the concealability modifier).

Complaining because I answered someone else's question as they asked it just because you have a personal problem with a book does not make this a more helpful place. If you have a better answer, please give it.

Both are optional rules, Miri.

Well yes.. but using an optional rule is about the only way the OP is going to get around the limitations to wear something heaver then a Urban Explorers Jumpsuit.

Millspec Armor. You can get plenty of mods on it that increase your ability to wear armor without penalty (str mods and mobility upgrades). I have a 3 body 1 str character who has 13/13 armor

Milspec armor is just a little bit conspicuous... but yeah a good option when you can get away with it, since it gives up to bodyx3 naturally.

Segway Terrier or a Horseman with a Rigger Coccoon. There's 20 armor right there.

EDIT: I'm sorry - 24 for the Horseman and 21 for the Terrier.

There are precisely 4 ways to get better armor than you already have.

1)Softweave
2)Form Fitting Body Armor
3)MilSpec Armor
4)"Optional Rules." There's like a zillion and I don't want to list all of them individually, but they amount to "beg your GM to let you wear more armor."

Because they stack? Also, my group considers FFBA to be cheese, along with PPP.

(And besides, if the low-body character cheeses with FFBA/Softweave, then the high body troll will too, and so will the opposition, and in the end he'll end up back where he started: not enough armor, only now it'll feel like everyone is using Nerf guns).

I'ma drive around in my Segway Terrier with a Rigger's Coccoon with a full turret and Distinctive Style vehicle mod to make it look like a Dalek.

*nodsnods* And in real life when I'm at the table I will wear a metal collar so that when I yell out "EXTERMINATE" my tablemates can't strangle me.

Note: You can wear armor inside the Rigger Coccoon also.

So when you ask the question, then you can put those in the "banned" list. If everyone has to answer the OP's question with houserules other than the OP's houserules, this is going to get very confusing.

That's exactly right. That's what he chose when he went for Body 3 instead of body 4 or 5. And yes, all the cheese turns guns into Nerf guns. I didn't write the cheese so it's not my problem. Our group has it's own house rules, but I don't pretend everyone else is playing by them.

what about the Exoskeleton from Attitude ?
I don't own the Attitude (yet ,because I'm waiting for the German Lifestyle 2073) but I remember a discussion here that it can be Armored up

HokaHey
Medicineman

And thus your argument is invalid. Just because you didn't write the cheese doesn't mean it's not cheese.



Because every character ever has 4 or 5 body.

Again, Draco, I have no clue what you're mad about, but it's not my problem. Someone other than you asked a question. I answered it using the rules as they exist instead of using your group's personal houserules. Get offended all you want, but I'm not playing by your house rules.

Well, this went downhill pretty fast.

QUICKLY LET US TALK ABOUT POSESSION SPIRITS INHABITING DIKOTED GEL PACKED ARMOR.

ALSO... i never understood why people aren't just taking the penalties. If you are AMAZINGLY good -Reaction/Agility or compensate with skill- why not take the penalties? It's not that you need to kill people any HARDER. Protect yourself.

On the other side, if you don't USE agility/raction that much... you don't lose that much either.

I know it is a "bad" deal trading in like 2 points armor for a possible die on all attack and all dodges, but depending on situation, it might be ok.

= mad, angry
= straight face, disgusted, grim, no expression

I am not angry. I am simply pointing out that what you said doesn't make sense.

Summerstorm: Because you could just have 1 less agility and 1 more Body, wear the 2 more armor, and come out with a net +1 reaction and +1 damage resistance over where you'd be by encumbering yourself?

But, it made Perfect Sense according to the rules as they are written.

And as we all know, the rules make complete and perfect logical sense the way they are written.

(See, that's not angry, it's sarcasm)

I'd like to point out to everyone Draco ISN'T the one who originally posted complaining about suoq responding using WAR!. That was someone else entirely. Draco only really responded to 2 things: 1) Why he thought it was cheesy and 2) Saying that having 4-5 body is required if you want to not die in combat is kind of silly.


The thing that is being attributed to Draco being angry really seems to be that first response going "OMG WHY DID YOU BRING WAR INTO IT!" which wasn't Draco at all...

I don't own it yet either, but when I do own it you'll know because I'll be posting super-awsome builds with it.

Thank you.

As I've said before, unless you specify otherwise, most people on the forums will assume you are talking about any and all of the rules as written, not houserules or home campaign restrictions.

If you want houserules, it is a good idea to specify that up front.

If you're discussing a home campaign and that campaign has restrictions like X item or rule not being allowed, it is a good idea to specify that up front.

If you are presenting either as a response, if it a good idea to specify that up front.

This will generally avoid a lot of confusion later on.




-k

IIRC You allready gave me some good Ideas (the Headless Murdercycle was Your Idea ,right)
and I'm looking forward to it(especially for my Hobbit Dronomancer)

HeyaheyaHeya
Medicineman

If this is directed at me, then here, here's my first reply to this thread that started this whole "Draco is getting angry" thing:



This was directed at a quoted section of text asking "why is one piece cheesier than the other?"



This was a blatant "this is what my group does."



This was an aside pointing out how it doesn't matter if one guy cheeses his armor to max, everyone else will see how Good of an Idea that is, and Do It Too, and it will only ruin the game experience.

But it is interesting to note that you immediately assume that it will ruin the gaming experience for all involved. It doesn't. In fact, we use FFBA, PPP, and Softweave, and the Armor usage has not skyrocketed because of it, as you insist it must. Not everyone is out there trying to get the most awesome and overpowereed character they can for their expenditure. All of the above add options. Options are not cheesy, in and of themselves, even if they do stack.

The question is:

Why?

What prevents your players from wanting more armor?

It's TJ. I'm pretty sure he's the guy whose groups never start with any skill rating above 3, and rarely have stats exceeding 5-6, and a dicepool of 12 is amazing like woah. He and his group play things low powered, and they prefer it that way. Don't try to question it with logic, it really won't get much of anywhere.

First question: how low-profile do you want this armor to be? Full body FFBA is not concealed because it includes a hood and gloves, so you will get different answers depending on whether you want something to wear on the streets or during runs only.

I was pretty much directing it at everybody. This isn't the first time confusion has set in over what exactly is being discussed.




-k

Oh right, I forgot. TJland where RAW runs perfectly.

I guess I'm looking for non-house rule stuff that could pass in most situations.
I'm not going to hit the Stuffer Shack in a chameleon suit.

So far, it looks like I'm going to have to mod my gear or max out around 10/6.
I don't see why my character, or really most runners, would have access to full-on military tech.
Without serious armorer connections, I don't think I'd have access to most of the obscure gear.

Thanks, most of you.

Never said they were low powered. In actuality, the chracters start with "Appropriate" levels in skills. You can only have so many Legendary characters after all. If you think that the character is "Professional" level, then he has a 3 in that skill, not a 6. Skills run the normal gamut, 1-4, with a few 5's or a 6. Stats run the gamut, of course, from 2's to 9's for humans, dependant upon Ware and whatnot. Now, that being said, average dice pools are in the 12-15 range for primary abilities, and 8-12 range for Secondary and Tertiary. Some pools are as low as 3-7 dice, dependant upon character.

The reasoning is simple. The game world assumes a certain level of expertise (regardless of whether or not others actually agree with that, is is pretty irrefutable), and ALL contacts and NPC's are designed with that in mind. So why, exactly, would a character need 2-3 times the dice pool of their opposition? There is absolutely no reason for that, other than to have no chance of failure. Read a book or two like that. BORING... If you keep the fluff of the world in mind, then you do not need Dice Pools in the 20-50's, people can only be so dead, coerced, or whatever. There is just no reason to do so. Mid to high teens is more than adequate. This is completely born out by the Optional Rule for Dice Pool Caps. Since it is really difficult to get Natural Skil/Attribute combinations above 14 (6+7 for Humans is only 13 after all), 26 Dice is usually the Maximum you should ever see if you are using that optional rule.

We have had characters that exceed that norm. Interestingly enough, they are generally the ones that DO NOT survive. For whatever reason. In some cases, it is because they are so hyperspecialized that they are non-functional outside of their specialty. For the one or two that chose to wear 20+ Armor, they sucked up all the firepower, as they became the biggest threat on the board. As such, they died as the biggest threat on the board.

And Draco18s. It is not about Wanting more armor, it is about Needing more armor. The need is just not there if you take appropriate precautions. And again, with Body 3, Strength 2 characters, An Armored Longcoat, Softweave, FFBA and a piece of PP is more than enough for most situations (10/6 right?). You want to survive the Gauss Round, or the LMG on FA, just don't get hit.

Nope... RAW is not perfect, as we all know. We just do not have a lot of players who enjoy breaking the game. Shadowrun has a detailed world with very established parameters. We stick within those parameters. We do not complain that the Skills are just broken as hell because we cannot get 12 ranks in a Skill. We do not complain when you can only wear 2x your Body in Armor. Etc... When you try to break the world, well, the world breaks. When you have players that play within the scopes of the game, then the game runs smoothly for all...

All of the edge cases that I see complained about here on the forums are generally not an issue with us, because we stay away from those edges. It is really that simple.

Many may not like that, but it is true nonetheless.

The rules shouldn't allow for anything else (excepting vehicles and people inside vehicles) other than this.



What's the Body 7, Strength 5 character wearing, the same thing? Because your Bod 3/Str 2 character has already cheesed it to the max in order to get up to...10/10? 12/10?

I agree that 12/10 armor is plenty, the problem lies in the fact that by allowing the things that get the low-body characters to get there allow the tank characters to, well, tank. With more armor than a tank.

The rules problem lies in the fact that in order to resist damage you roll body + armor and body limits armor (each point of body gives 2.5 dice worth of damage resistance dice, not counting extra cheese, which makes it closer to 1 point of body is 4 dice: the more damage resistance you have, the more you get!).

I have a character with Body 7... he is Sporting about 11/11 Armor (No Softweave). Again, why should I want more; I don't often get hit. Who cares what the Low body character has to do to wear that armor. The point is that the Troll does not have to do the same thing to survive.

I see no problems with the rules. But, in your point above, should not the tougher person be tougher to hurt (as you said: the more damage resistance you have, the more you get). I'm Seeing no issue here.

Usually when one or two characters are sporting a really really high offense or defense value I think it makes balancing an encounter more difficult. Lets say you do have your street sam with 20+ armor and high body. In order for a bad to hurt him he needs to get hit by pretty a Gauss rifle round or that LMG on FA.. but if either of those items get turned on anyone else they will get red misted. If that street sam/mage is dropping 20 something dice for an attack and red misting the critters in one action then the GM has to either throw more at them or make them harder to hurt. Which in turn makes things really tough and boring on the guy with an Ares Slivergun.

Keeping pools on stuff done as a group can make things easier for the GM to build and improvise around then for something the character specializes in and or does on his own he can be sporting more dice then a non specialized.

It seems like the problem here is everyone agrees that having more than 10-12 armor is pretty over the top, but not having more armor than that makes having a high body pretty useless, since the only difference between a 3 body character with 10 armor and a 6 body character with 10 armor is 3 damage resistance dice. I mean seriously... woohoo? Given that, who would ever invest into a high body, it's just not worth the returns.

So what if you got rid of encumbrance based on body, and made body a bit more valuable? Say you automatically resist half your body in damage (round down), while still getting to use your full body in a damage resistance test. So the guy with 6 body is taking an automatic 2 less damage than your guy with 3 body. Of course, that gets kind of awkward with vehicles (Hi, I'm just going to ignore the first 8 damage you deal to me, then still roll 36 dice in resistance.), so may not be the best solution. Maybe just do away with body as a separate stat and roll it in with strength? Both stats are on the weak end of things, and even combining them together doesn't make them too strong, and it's not too unreasonable to think that you're no longer going to have wimpy 1 str characters with 6+ body.

Yeah, looks like a gentleman's agreement to me.

Personally, when I have more body, on a run, I'm using it for armor. For my 5 body orc, it's YNT Softweave Armor jacket, FFBA half, leg and arm casings, shin casings, and vitals protector, plus a dermal sheath. Comes out to 16/12, which in the end does a nice job of keeping damage in the stun category.

(Going to dinner, or a meet, or some other social occasion, he wears Berwick. That's just me.)

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For Missions characters, I tend to go with 4 body, 6/4 armor (pick one), half FFBA, and forearm and shin PPP.

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For 3 body, see above.

I've never done more than 5 body. Not my style. But if I wanted a body that high, I'd be adding the Carbon Boron and forearm protectors probably.

And I knew a character who survived a suicide bomber (mook ran up, popped the pin on a 'nade, and hugged him). Took 0 boxes of damage (no Edge).

*Shakes Head*

Get a quickened armor spell.