Can anybody tell me when a spirit would use edge or how to get them to spend it?
It seems like a huge waste to have a force 6 spirit, with 6 edge, just sitting on all those extra dice if they're only going to be around for 1 combat.

There's always the "treat your spirits better" argument, but how exactly do you do that when the only time you see them is when you summon them?

I'm away from my books right now, but I believe a summoner can command a spirit to use edge on tests. The spirit generally doesn't like this, however. It might cost an additional service, or in the case of especially abusive summoners, you might allow a spirit to use edge to resist the summoning roll if the mage has a bad rep on the metaplanes for mistreating his spirit "allies".

How do you mistreat them vs. coddle them?
I'm just not sure how "hey, go kill everybody in that car" translates to mistreatment.

I'd say it largely depends on the magical tradition we're talking about here. Say, if your shaman is summoning what he believes to be the spirits of his ancestors, doing the rites of the ancestor cult may gain him the favor of the spirits and make them take that little extra bit of effort to save his hoop, etc.
As to mistreating, a good example is right in the books - making a spirit sustain a spell for you diminishes and finally kills him. Of course spirits regard that as mistreatment.

Last game I ran, I had spirits be really interested in the material world and all the stuff in it that just isn't there in the metaplanes. Depending on the spirit type, they might want certain things from the caster. Beast spirits might want some JiffyPop or a burrito from Stuffer Shack, spirits of man just want to watch a good trid, that kind of thing. Doesn't work for combat if you summon them in a firefight, sure, but then that's not the most creative use of spirits, now is it?

I guess I could just summon spirits for non-combat related activities.
It's kind of like the friend who only calls you when he needs something.

I wonder if a spirit would enjoy being summoned to go to the zoo or something or would they rather just be left alone.

Eh i do it this way: No ONE... No spirit, no mercenary, no streetdoc, NOBODY will EVER use his edge for any goals other than his own.

Only if your goals and those of the NPC coincide, they will use edge. With spirits they might use it to: Battle or interact with another spirit-entity they know, or are opposed to by type. And also to protect themselves or a friend. {note that getting "killed" is GOOD for spirits, because they are done with the shit on earth that way, and return to their home}

That counts as coddling for Blood Spirits.

They use their edge, if their overflow damage might overflow their willpower, since they dislike to lose a force point.
They use edge if summoned or bound, because a player would also use edge if this would give them more Karma.
In short: Spirits acts like players. As NPCs should act like players.

Thats a big assumption.

No it's not... They are disrupted, they go home. They cannot die on our plane of existence, and they know that. That is pretty much canon.

I don't quite get what you mean, the asssumption I refer to is that spirits want to go home, that they don't want to be in service to a mage.

That is certainly not supported by canon.

Note that going home might be awesome, but the trip there (IE, being disrupted) could still really suck. They shouldn't be going out of their way to leap into the path of hostile magic or anything, just because you (as GM) think they're in a big hurry to get home.

There seems to be an assumption that the relationship between a mage and a spirit is necessarily one of servitude and control, I don't think that's the case.

I don't remember whether this was written in RAW or fluff, but even if it is "good" for them, they really prefer not to be disrupted. I'm AFB so I can't go find it right now, but it's been written (I think in Street Magic) that spirits find disruption to be a very painful experience, despite the lack of nervous systems, and avoid it if they can.

… You summon the spirits, extract Services (*serve*), and command their actions. It's kind built right in.

But if you read the fluff, it's not quite that simple.

Different traditions do it differently. For a Hermedic, it would most likely be servitude. For a Shaman, it would be more of a friend asking for a favour.

Why would I read the fluff? No rules in there. Hehe. I'm just pointing out that they're called Services, and they do them for *you*. Whatever the fluff, the mechanics are obviously about servitude and control, so I found ThreeGee's point odd.

Kinda my point, whether or not a spirit will use edge, either for or against its summoner, is something that has to be role played.

It entirely depends on the tradition and actions of the mage.

When you ask your friend to help you move, is your relationship one of servitude and control?

Usually. With me playing the servant.

Yes. Which is why so many times, my friends hurriedly throw themselves down the stairs to break their legs, so they can't work for me any more and can hurry home.

Your confusing game mechanics and terminology for the reality of the world.

As I remember Burning Bright has quite detailed descriptions of the relationships between summoner and spirits. Whats described is very far from servitude and control.

Uh, yeah Fatum. It is, if I summon him (assuming it's even the same spirit) from another plane of reality, engage in a me-vs-you faceoff, and tell him to go do it.

*shrug* The spirits do not summon the mages to go do things for them. That's all there is to it. If they're just your buddies, you shouldn't have to summon them, you shouldn't need Services, they should spend all their Edge for you, etc.

It's hardly my fault if the mechanics are wrong in their description of the 'setting reality', though.

What if you call him on the cell, lure him into helping you with blatant flattery and then direct him around your house, asking to do this and that until he's tired?

Again, yes. Especially if he only exists for that purpose, and I never do it for him (unless, I dunno, I happen to be slumming in his neighborhood). At best, you're describing an employee.

And if I flatter badly, he beats me half to death?

Burning bright constitutes one set of approaches and one set of spirit and man relationships if I remember, and part of that books main characters thing is his rather strange relationship with his go go gadget motobike spirit.

The fact is, from a universe standpoint, from a mechanical standpoint all traditions are functionally equal, while certainly you can roleplay your mage treating spirits with kindness and respect it shouldn't really be mechanically or thematically similar to one that demands their obedience through pain and threats. At the end of the day your still forcing them to obey your every last command up to and including on pain of a disruption.

Not all friendships are exactly symmetrical...

If you flatter badly, you keep on going for several hours until getting your throat sore!

Hehe. I'm just saying, if you replace the spirit (in SR4) with a *person* (in SR4), that person would be a servant, employee, bodyguard, mook, whatever. Not a friend at all. They do annoying and/or dangerous things for you, never the other way around, and they do what you say. Yes, more Ally-type relationships could exist… and so can Free Spirits.

Although...we're not talking about permanent edge here.
It's a stat that refreshes presumably once the spirit returns to the astral plane.
Wouldn't "to the best of their ability" include at least some edge?

If I, as a character, were compelled to clear a room or fight something or sneak a group of people into some place, I only had until sunrise to do it and I had 6 edge...I'd probably spend some. Is there some rule that states they only spend it defensively? Does the GM spend it? Who should be controlling the spirit once it is summoned?

*Spirits don't occasionally rip me into the astral plane and force me to do their bidding.*

I for my part do not believe that spirits want to escape their summoners at all cost, or that the material plane really sucks for them. Also, while technically immortal, they still feel pain (wound modifiers, susceptible to stun damage etc.), so they won't go out of their way to get killed; that's like licking the inside of a toilet bowl just to get a day off work.

That said, we handle it quite simple at our table: the summoner spends one of his edge to enable the spirit to spend edge. The only thing the spirits will use edge against by themselves is banishing and resisting custom spells designed to actually kill them in a way where they don't respawn.

I wouldn't assume Edge refreshes when they return. It's an important stat for spirits, and they presumably need it for whatever life they lead 'at home'. They should be at least as careful about spending it as PCs are (probably more).

Spirits, drones, animals, all of that, are under the direct control of the GM, based on his interpretation of the interaction between the NPC and player. Unless a possession spirit posesses a mage with Channeling, or a drone is Jumped into.

Ah, let me expand on all that.

In-game, i don't think you can CHOOSE to use edge. It is a natural occurance. Sometimes it is just luck, sometimes it is a burst of concentration and will to succeed. In-universe it wouldn't be as stable too {Someone with edge 4 always getting X percent more effective or something }.

As such a renowned surgeon might "use" it in a important, experimental procedure he devised. A soldier might gain an unbelievable series of boosts when he got shot. A Olympic runner gains a "floating feeling of power" when the crowd cheers. A shadowrunner bursts out with an incredible dodge/shoot combo.

But doing the laundry, sniping targets you KNOW you will hit surely, or fill out the paperwork... this doesn't get boosted.

Now the spirits, i agree, may or may not be slaves. But that doesn't change the fact that they are alien, not from this world. It is sometimes suggested that they make "deals" with mages... but fact is: They don't. They gain NOTHING by being here, other than possibly experiencing our world {gaining karma?}. Of course they are alien... maybe they don't want or need anything from us... but then, why are they resist coming here. Do they balance because of some trancendent reasons?

Well free spirits and other weird entities seem to be well-tuned to our world though and DO make bargains: Sell and buy power and valuables.

Oh and also: Yeah, i pretty much believe being disruptet surely hurts like hell... Still no reason to spend edge. Now... if a spirit WANTS or NEEDS to stay here: Edge use it is.

I generally agree with Summerstorm's idea of edge.

I also agree with his portrayal of spirits, and I have something to add.

Sometimes, the spirits are intrigued by the "New reality", after all, the Earth was outside the mana source of the universe for 5000 years. Sometimes, the spirits are born in this reality (who says in the grand scheme, the Earth isn't a far metaplane for someone else), and are more an extension of the astral body of the Earth (at least in my opinion), or the dominant mana flavour. Those spirits, I would think, are more likely to become "free", even if tied to the astral space around the Earth, or the generally available metaplanes.

On another note, direcct from fluff: Ethernaut (SM 93, Aberrant Spirits.) mentioned meeting a spirit that seemed determined that the character was a figment of it's imagination. So, sometimes, the spirit may not even be aware it is on Earth.

Honestly, i think we should go back to how it was in all previous editions where non free spirits didn't really have an edge equivalent. Giving spirits edge equal to their force when even mook enmies only have a group pool equal to their professional rating was a silly idea and more magicrun.

The mook edge is to ease your job as a GM, not to make them weaker supposedly, just like having a single damage track.
Personally I don't think that I need such "aid"...

My interpretation as a GM:

The Spirit is the sole authority on when The Spirit spends its Edge, which means the GM is the sole authority on when The Spirit spends its Edge, because the GM spends. If the Spirit *likes* you, it might be willing to invest some Edge in doing what you ask of it. If it really has some reason *not* to like you, it might spend Edge on contesting your summoning rolls..especially if it rolls badly in the first place. If the Spirit is baseline indifferent to you, it has no reason to spend Edge at all, with the following exception: I always have Spirits use Edge when they roll particularly badly with a large dice pool, because even if they don't care about accomplishing your objectives, they'd rather avoid embarrassing themselves like that. Likewise, I always have Spirits save some Edge for BASIC SELF DEFENSE; no reason that self preservation shouldn't be a high priority for them.

This is, I became aware recently, a controversial stance. But generally speaking at my table I modulate Spirits spending of Edge--including Spirits OPPOSED to the PCs, by the way--in such a way as to keep my PCs scared but alive, whenever possible.



I don't think even your buddies would spend ALL their edge for you. : )

Heh, I meant all Edge they spend would be *for* you, instead of against. Ambiguous wording.

Well as for treating your spirits well I have had players allow their bound spirits to manifest and wonder around their pads. Heck I even had a player allow them to join in on a weekly poker game more then once. Teaching them how to play poker was a real fun RP bender, lol. Dam, spirit of man kept cheating too.

As for edge and when the "spirit" (ie. the gm) would use it is. I have alsways gone by the rule of "what helps the spirit". Now if the summoner has been very thoughtful and kind to his spirits then it may decide to use edge to the advantage of the summoner. Much as one of your players deciding to use edge in an attempt to save a fellow players character from grevious harm.

I agree with this entirely. A spirit/sprite/ai/NPC will only use edge to further their own goals, but with a few exceptions.
If they LIKE you, and your goals and their goals coincide, they may consider spending edge to help you. (how you persuade them to your side is between you and your GM)
And to not die or avoid harm. I think its fair to say, that if someone is going to die, they will start spending edge. Two examples come to mind: spirits being disrupted due to physical damage, which costs them a point of force(this may be free spirits only) as well as being out of commission for a month, and sprites about to get cyberfragged.(data bombs can do this quite easily).

If you, the player, puts an NPC in a situation where they have to spend a lot of edge to stay alive, they will probably feel like you owe them at the end of it all. Or be irate in general.

I like this. It limits the number of times Edge can be used in the PC's favour and yet allows for some leeway for the player to control the action.

I have argued in the past that Summoning/Binding a spirit whose Force is significantly higher than the Summoner's Magic Attribute would constitute reason enough for the spirit to use Edge to resist the Summoning/Binding. "Insignificant worm" kind of thing. This would be up to the GM and be a wonderful source of fear and hesitation for a player who wants to overextend his PC.

As a GM, I generally refuse to use a summoned spirit's Edge. I also think that a summoner who continually places his/her spirits under services in which they would be forced to use Edge to complete a task or avoid defeat falls under the definition of mistreatment of said spirits.

Woah this would be broken. You could have a Materialised spirit adding Edge to every test until it gets down to zero, then ending its Materialisation power (so at that point it is solely on the Astral plane), getting its Edge immediately topped up to full, re-activating Materialisation and going at it again.

Sure, each Materialisation could cost a service and turning Materialisation on and off requires time, but that's a small price to pay for adding Force exploding dice to Force consecutive rolls (for high Force spirits anyway. Less of a problem for Force 1!) It would just be "too good" if it were this way so I don't think retreating to the Astral plane should replenish Edge.

I believe the intent was that the Edge would refresh once the spirit returned to its native metaplane, not just Astral space. I could be wrong, but that's how I read the post.

As a GM I would have the spirit's edge refresh once it is no longer in service to any mage/summoner. But that's just me. So far in our games it really hasn't come up.

-D

One set of Edge per Summoning. The only way to fly...

Once the spirit is gone, who cares? You can't even be sure of summoning the 'same spirit' twice. Unless you're actually running a game in the metaplanes and the real world at the same time, this would never matter.

Ah, well if the proposed idea were changed to Edge refreshing when the spirit returns to its Metaplane, sure. As Yerameyahu points out, it's usually going to be moot whether the next summon is the same spirit with refreshed Edge or a new spirit altogether.

Would this limit apply to a spirit that is Bound for a year? No wonder they resent being Bound! They'd have to be very judicious deciding when the optimal time to spend Edge was (probably they would hope a moment would come in that year when their summoner has passed out from drain or stim patches).

Honestly spirits are already a bit more powerful then they should be for the investment in them, not allowing the summoner to summon/compel edge gets it back closer to that line where they need to be. Also I re-iterate my basic statement, most spirits shouldn't have edge, and certainly not Force value in edge.