I dont see what the use of the Forgery skill is in Shadowrun.

Nobody really uses hard currency anymore so that's of limited use. Art seems like it would be next to impossible to forge.

So, what can you use it for?

Hard currency is used in some places. You can still use paper UCAS dollars, if you want to, but the electronic Nuyen is just that wide spread.

In feral cities, or lower-tech areas, such as Lagos, most of Africa, or some places in the middle east (and some NAN areas), you'll should be using hard currency or barter systems.

And, there are some corps that back-up some files in hardcopy, since they are harder to access from outside then even the tightest matrix security.

Other then these, yeah, Forgery is pretty useless.

Oh, right, it can be used to make knock-off products, like Zoe suits.

If'n you're a hacker sort, you use it with edit to do credit chips and licenses and SINs...

Paperwork and badges come to mind. A high security facility would require some sort of computer check to go with the ID, but lower security places might not check immediately as long as the ID looked good.

Depending the sites, having an ID that's working (on computer) but looks ugly probably won't be enough either.

It just seems like a waste of time because anything you could do with it either requires a high input from other skills or is generally not that useful.

Copying a credstick can be done, but once either the original or copy is used, the system flags the other being used and it doesnt work.

From the book "Note that Forgery skill is of little use in establishing reliable false identities, as such efforts require massive proliferation of fake or altered data throughout numerous secure databases throughout the Matrix."

Even printing paper money blows: (Unwired) " There are other kinds of electronic money in the Sixth World besides nuyen, and hackers can counterfeit those too. Typical examples include national currencies (UCAS dollars) and corpscrip (Aztechnology corporate pesos). These monies are usually easier to counterfeit than nuyen but are much more difficult to pass as authentic (verification systems get +4 dice on Opposed Tests to detect counterfeits)."

It seems like any way you use Forgery, it's either easily detected or not really worth the investment. Yeah you can make fake ID's and maybe some fake paperwork...but why not just BUY them for a couple hundred nuyen and save yourself the Karma? When are you ever really going to need to fake hardcopy data or ID?

Yes. Forgery (as physical artistic function) is a bygone skill. *shrug* There's no use for Artisan, either.

This is mostly true. Artisan, at least, has a function as a flavour skill...

Should have been made a knowledge/profession/interest skill tbh.




Anyway, Forgery has come up a couple times in my games for making fake paperwork to get into a facility in plain sight. But not enough that I'd call it justified.

Well, some skills aren't that useful in most games anyway, like Pilot (aerospace) or Cybertech. The animal husbandry skill group is not exactly used a lot, either though it is in Running Wild to start with, and not the core book.

I could have sworn I posted this already, but don't see it.

If you're a hacker, forgery is usable. Not hugely, perhaps, but usable. See Unwired, but some examples include:

Copy a certified credstick (aka counterfeiting). UN 95. forgery + edit.
Optional rule: forging SINs and IDs.
Optional rule: forging passkeys.

I think it's all in how you view the SR world, and want your game to run. You can easily make any skill set pointless, or poignant.

I tell my guys to categorize artisan as a knowledge skill. You're into woodworking, or cooking, or tattoos, or playing the banjo? I love it, gives your character flavor. Do I want you to spend 4-12BPs on it during CharGen, absolutely not.

Toss it in as a knowledge skill, they still pay *something* for it, and, when than run down Nashville way comes along, the team can still pose as a bluegrass band without feeling bad about not taking Artisan: Banjo because of cost.

Except, as I pointed out earlier, the rules for copying certified credsticks makes it such that once you use the original or copy, the other becomes useless.

That kinda hangs a question mark over why you'd bother.

Additionally, the Interval for the Extended tests are so incredibly long, it adds another "why bother" to the pot.

Missed both your earlier remark and that point. With both in mind, yeah. Heck, even including the optional rules, forging takes waaaay to much time to be useful even for those. (Seriously, Rx32 weekly extended tests?)

You're not supposed to bother. It's hard to break the international monetary system.

In the book, the skill can be used for documents or even items. So it's possible to forge false ID & credsticks. You can also use the skill for image editting. So for those who don't have the Edit program... or wanna make a really good edit of a video/trideo/etc... could use Forgery + Edit rating.

Forget forging currency, as pointed out it is difficult and time-consuming as it should be and is in RL. Forgery is good for the hacker-face types. They can take janitor Jones's corp swipecard and doctor it using the skill. Change the photo ID, hack and modify the boimetric chip as you need and hey presto, you get a free pass into the corp facility while Jones sleeps it off tied up in his apartment closet.

Additionally, forging credsticks can net you cash if you need to pay someone and spend the cred before the guy you gave the forged credstick to does. Of course, ripping someone off like that would make them rather angry, but if you choose your mark right you might get away with it. If they're a recognised criminal, I am sure the Star wouldn't hesitate to take advantage and put them in the slammer for a long time for using forged currency, saving you from certain retribution, at least for a 10 stretch ...

Forgery actually has some uses. In a physical sense, its kind of bleh.

But it works in the matrix - digital forgery is Edit+forgery(i really wish it was int linked instead of agility linked). Unwired has a section on it. It can net you fake credsticks(always good for planting on people to get them in trouble) and, with some real effort, fake sins and licenses.

The real use for a hacker type comes in forging Passkeys for matrix authentication systems - that passage was cut from the core book in the transition to anniversary(along with some other things, like the rigger action table, and long technomancer rebooting) but the relevant rules are also in unwired, though I'd have to check.


I'd like to disagree on artisan being useless. Its actually got a hidden benefit - Carpentry, painting, guitars, music, sculpting, the banjo - are all specializations of that skill. What this means is that you have one skill that covers -every- creative endeavor(except things that fall under Hardware or Medicine or various magic skills) without having to buy it multiple times. You can get better at one specific thing, but the skill still covers a ton of bases. Its almost like playing a hollywood movie/tv character, its that flexible. In my part of the world, the Artisan skill has been likened to Hartisan, from the show Leverage, who's feats involve busting out a really awesome violin solo while undercover, despite not having touched a violin since his childhood. Also just kind of showing up to work with an full size canvas/oil painting of his boss, having done it in his free time. Also forging ancient manuscripts to put in an auction using techniques of the era they were made in, so it could be auctioned off and someone framed.
The artisan skill lets you do that. Its kind of ridiculous how flexible it is.

Which is exactly why I've house-ruled it to oblivion.

You can't be better at singing than knitting? Pah!

Flexible, yes. Useful, no.

We have houseruled it to be seperate skills (Which is a good reason to move it to the Knowledge Skill Category, but we like it active). Makes more sense that way. Whether they are useful depends upon the table, and the campaign.

Agreed. I've often found myself having trouble with the artisan skill as is. From a "is this useful" standpoint, as well as a "does this make sense". A caveat, however. Perhaps the character studied classical arts, it might be more reasonable to take the artisan skill. ut otherwise, I may ask that it be treated as a knowledge skill for specific things (music, pottery, paintings, etc) in the future.

I also limit Artisan to a specific Art. It makes no sense otherwise - I mean, how many musicians do you know who can also paint and sculpt or vica versa? If a PC choses to take the skill in my game, we sit down and talk about how broad or narrow they want it to be, and the broader it goes the less skilled it gets on each aspect of the skill.

For instance, a rocker who chooses Artisan (guitar) can play the guitar pretty well, write songs and probably play other band like instruments (bass guitar, synth, drums) basically, but would be a tool if presented with a violin. Similarly, someone who wants to be a violin virtuosso might be able to do the basics on other classical instruments, but would be a doofus if he/she had to pick up a guitar and rock a club.

Going back to forgery, nice pick up on the digital forging Udoshi! Also works nicely meatside on requisition forms for a warehouse etc, but in the world of the 2070's hacked entries on the server to back up the physical order sheet are a must, which is why I think it can be a good skill for a hacker to have.

Like many others here, we've agreed that Artisan should be several specific skills. There can be some reasonable overlap-for instance using Midas's example a Guitarist may not be the best Violinist but she could listen and tell that the person playing a Violin was off key.

How we play it. I always assumed it was left broad of scope because it's power comes from roleplaying and situations, which should be encouraged in my opinion. To limit it to one "specialization" seems too narrow and discourages use, and letting it be applicable to any artistic endeavor breaks suspension of disbelief and actually ruins the RP.

You're not an artist yourself are you?

I know a LOT of people who fit that description. In fact, most artists I know work both music and more visual crafts. Not to the same quality, but that's another point. A lot of artists tend to be interested in creativity, not a single aspect or tool of that.

And they would have multiple Artisan: Whatever Skills, probably each with their own specialties...

I've always thought that the 'one specialization' thing was a bit too limited, personally. If someone bothers to bring their natural skill all the way 6, without bothering with shortcuts like ware or adept powers, they should really be able to pick up two specializations. (maybe 3 if Aptitude and level 7 is involved).

Isn't Lockpicking a lot like Forgery? Most (if not all doors/locks) electronic?

Which is what makes it one of the best home security systems. "Uh...... Either we shoot it or we walk away."

While I agree that Artisan as written is too broad a Skill, I disagree wholeheartedly that it is useless. A PC with a decent Artisan Skill can pass himself off as any number of people who might be called upon to enter a facility, and prove by his talent that he is in fact the painter/carpenter/plumber/whatever.

A face with this Skill, backed up by a hacker creating work orders, has a built in passkey. And once inside....

Psh, what? What's he gonna do, quickly whittle a demonstration? Paint something for the guard?

I'm pretty sure the guards would be confused and distracted.

Talk knowledgeably about how the last contractor failed to build the dividing wall to code, and proceed to fix it, installing a bug in the process.

Argue the colour scheme is "so last season" and stay late to give the office the right power colour for the young exec... installing...

Play the mafia don's favourite wedding song and get invited to perform at the next party, overhearing plans to ... which he can sell for ...

Does every problem have to be solved with bullets?

2 out of 3 of those examples seem to be more of a con check than a Artisan check.

Yeah, definitely Con. The third one isn't impossible, but it assumes you're not talking to the guards anymore… which means mission accomplished already. Anyway, that's not what you said. You said 'enter a facility' and '*prove* by his talent' that he's okay. I say you can't prove anything; it also doesn't matter at all. If you already have work orders, IDs, etc., you're in, whether you can perform or not.

Now, if you're talking about a 'long con', then yes. It might be halfway useful for some situations (specifically, getting a job as an artisan). That's what I call useless, because I never see such actions in Shadowrun, and I bet you could fake it anyway (without even mentioning skillware, of course).

Its also a good way to snag or eliminate some of the things from the social modifiers table, like wrong attire/right look(what do plumbers wear, anyway?) or plausable evidence(yes, i CAN fix your pipes) or lacking background knowledge.

Well, maybe I am talking about the 'long con'. But getting past the guards with work orders does not mean 'mission accomplished'. Udoshi has the idea I was getting at. Such situations do, or should come up in Shadowrun. However good a con-artist you are, if you don't know which end of a hammer to hold, you can be found out.

Besides, there's always the Day Job Quality to consider. A little extra cash never hurts.

Again, I don't agree that the details Udoshi mentioned are Artisan. *Maybe* they're Knowledge: Artisan (X), but they're mostly just 'not being a moron'. You see it in TV/movies a lot, and the solution is always to prepare the Con details, not to *become* an Artisan. With skillware, instant DIY Matrix queries, etc., just don't need it.

If long cons existed in SR games, Artisan might be needed for certain of them (though I'd rather just pick a job you know, like programmer, etc.); I can also see maybe allowing Artisan to pretend it's a general purpose Knowledge skill (though honestly that seems unfair; Firearms doesn't act like a Knowledge skill, etc.). I just think these specific circumstances are vanishingly rare in SR games, as well as being easily fulfilled by non-Artisan means. So… Day Job, yes; Rocker, yes (ha ha). If you run in LA, I bet you could use Artisan generically a lot, yes.

A red cap and moustache?

Now it just sounds like bad porn.

Revisited this thread because I had an Idea (see next post), but after catching up with this thread wanted to make a quick response to this post.

FYI, I am a wannabe writer, and I do know quite a lot of creative people. I guess many of them are dilettantes who express their creativity through various media, but most of them have a "main" focus for their artistic endeavour, especially those rare few who have made a living (or any kind of money) from their art.

If you look at most successful bands IRL, music is what they live and breathe 100%. Most professional classical musicians will be the same. Most painters will paint pictures, sculptors sculpt etc. They may dabble in other fields, but in very few cases do they recieve critical acclaim (Blur's Damon Album [sp?] who wrote an opera being one famous exception).

In game, for me the Artisan skill is something special - anyone can twist and hammer a sheet of metal to create a sculpture, but the guy (or gal) with Artisan (Sculpting) skill can use the material in a magical way so that even the layman can appreciate the skill and flair. Same guy paints a picture? He can do it, but no NPC's gomma be saying "Hey, wow!". YMMV ...

Just had a thought:

Artisan (Painting) + Forgery + Fine Art knowledge skill = Guy who can forge a Monet?

Sure. What's a Monet? Why can't a computer and robot do it better?

Computers and Robots dont have the capacity for the "Feeling" that a artistic person can put into artwork. It may be technically perfect, but does it emote (does not sound like the word I want, but meh)?

If it's a *forgery*, it's a copy. Perfect is the goal.

For it to be perfect, it must have the same impact. Can a machine generate that?

an Otomo with a forgery skillsoft ?

There is a reason my Drone rigger has a couple of utility drones with mechanical arms and a load of Profession autosofts.

Instead of spending Karma on skills she'll rarely use, she gets to spend Nuyen.






-k

TJ, yes. Duh.